Tech discussion on 2.8 V-6 distributors. A guy stopped over a few weeks ago and he mentioned he changed his distributor on his V-6 engine. He told me the OEM Fiero distributor has a poorly made stamped steel ring and the aftermarket distributor he bought has a cast ring. I would need to take the cap off mine to look at what I have and what the parts look like. I'm sure some here can post some pictures. So my question is this: Can one expect a performance or MPG gain with a better designed distributor? Did the 2.8 distributor stay the same from 85-88? Apples to apples only. If you have a high mileage engine and changed the distributor and obtained an improvement this is not really apples to apples.
Looking to start a discussion. I know in the older GM cars (60-70's and probably many more years) you could put in a better distributor and easily find HP gains.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Rodney, I changed out the pickup coil in my stock distributor and it just seem to float in there. I realize that the shims on the shaft are probably suppose to keep it still but mine were worn. It did ok for a while but finally got to moving around so much it wasn`t dependable anymore. I bought a new Richporter Technology distributor and the pickup coil is actually mounted on a bracket.
I don't *think* an aftermarket distributor would give hp and/or mpg gains over an OEM unit in good condition. However, I've had two pickup coils go out (stranding me), and now I change it at the same interval as the plugs. And I do NOT like replacing the pickup coil. If a new distributor could boast better reliability (and maybe a little less "bouncing" on the timing), I would probably upgrade at my next plug replacement.
Back when my Fiero was powered by a 2.8 V6, I did the distributer upgrade. The stock distributer was very worn, and needed replacement. After the distributer swap, the engine ran better, for obvious reasons. But that's really all one should expect. The aftermarket design is more robust than stock, but is not going to be a "power adder".
I put one of the new-style distributors in my car. Actually, I did it a little differently than most - I used one I found in the junkyard. It was from an '85 or '86 Chevy Celebrity with a 2.8. While the car was pretty beat and the engine was a filthy, leaky oily mess, the distributor looked like it was almost new. Works fine in the Fiero.
I was surprised to see how much endplay (up and down) there was in the shaft. I don't think it necessarily matters, but since the old one I removed had almost none at all, I decided to shim mine. Jegs has shims; mine were from Moroso.
Anyway, I can't tell if the car runs any better with the new distributor. My old shaft was pretty tight with caked on burnt oil, so I suppose at least the new one probably spins more freely. That's gotta be worth a few HP LOL...
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Originally posted by TXGOOD:
I bought a new Richporter Technology distributor and the pickup coil is actually mounted on a bracket.
I like that design. It looks like the pickup coil is protected in its little mounting "cup". I'm thinking it might be shielded from arcing, ozone, etc and hopefully might last longer.
I'm gonna seperate the electrical and mechanical bits and i'm assuming from question that your asking about the mechanical side of the distributor?
It is a gear that rotates on a shaft in a base shaft. Really I don't beleive there is a way to improve upon it without doing some nonstock things. The pickup coil design itself can be an improvement,an unrusty "star" type with stronger magnetic force would likely give a better resolution and signal than the old style one. That is about the only "updated" type stock distributor part I think would cause any improvement.
The ICM,pickup coil itself and other electronic parts are susceptible to poor quality. Stock versus stock I would call the star type an upgrade,but have no oscilloscope to confirm. As far as body/casting,other than possibly flex at higher rpms from the stock one I don't see how the body would play a factor.
Which vehicles are you thinking of that get hp from distributor swaps? You know your stuff so assuming it is not going from points to hei,that would be more along the lines of an ignition swap than a dizzy swap imo and be apples/oranges.
As far as non-stock stuff if I were to build the ultimate dizzy than a few things on the list would be a hardened ceramic coated shaft,coated bushings as well as gear and pickup "cage" and probrably stronger magnets. Basically so it would not flex,twist or lose signal and with as little friction as possible for best signal. I have a couple spares,and keep meaning to build one but since I haven't any use for it I haven't. I've almost finished my prototype cam sensor that goes in place of the dizzy so I can OBDII convert these possibly in the future Drops right in place of distributor.
I've mentioned thermal coating on these before instead of a heatsink,I think either would be an improvement for the electronics side of it. My plan is to ceramic coat the distributor shaft,which would help with friction and heat. Then use a thermal coating on the body that helps transfer heat from the material it is applied to. Same stuff was just banned from being used on cup cars because it was too efficient at keeping the cars cool allowing extended drafting. I also have some heat sinks I planned to coat and fit,cause (dawg?) had an excellent idea there. I also want to play with better magnetic output,but unfortunately my available ideas and my available time are always bit uneven. Honestly I think the heat issue can be partially taken care of by only using true delco parts instead of aftermarket crap.
I would love to hear Rodney's thoughts and why he's interested.
Because back in the late 60's and early 70's cars one could change the distributor and get HP gains. Distributors that are available today. So I wondered if this better looking distributor would provide an increase and if it was worth doing in my 88 Mera. I have the Miller Woods Stage II turbo on my stock 2.8 in my Mera.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Because back in the late 60's and early 70's cars one could change the distributor and get HP gains. Distributors that are available today. So I wondered if this better looking distributor would provide an increase and if it was worth doing in my 88 Mera. I have the Miller Woods Stage II turbo on my stock 2.8 in my Mera.
But that HP you picked up from doing dizzy swaps in the 60/70's cars were due to the tunability of them: the centrifugal and vacuum advance portions. Change the weights, springs and cam profiles and you could dial in your rate and total amount of advance and at what RPM you wanted it to come in. The vacuum canister added even more tunability. Modern distributors (isn't that an oxymoron?) don't have any mechanism for mechanical or vacuum advance; the computer handles the timing. The distributor in our Fieros is just there to distribute the spark and drive the oil pump. There may also be a reason to upgrade for durability, features or packaging. The old cast iron Corvette distributors were sought after becuase they had the mechanical tach drive and were supposedly stronger if you were driving a high volume/pressure oil pump. Or you needed a smaller/lower cap for firewall/hood clearance. Or you wanted to ditch the points and go electronic triggering. Or having dual points so you could select two different timings at the flick of a switch or get increased dwell time. Without ditching the dizzy alltogether and going DIS, I think making the existing distrubutor as good as it can be would be worthwhile. Taking out the excess play, using a high quality brass insert cap/rotor, a good quality ICM with perhaps supplementary cooling heatsinks, verifying the clearance on the reluctor, etc. would be beneficial.
Originally posted by Blacktree: I agree with DefEddie. The electronics are more prone to fail than the mechanical parts of the distributer.
Which electronics? I've had one ICM fail. I replaced it with an aftermarket unit, which lasted about 0.5 miles. I don't really count that one as a failure. I count that one as a faulty part. I replaced that with an AC-Delco unit, which has been working for about 80000 miles now. The only special treatment it gets is fresh thermal compound every time I do a plug change (every 30K miles).
The pickup coil, however.... I've had two of those fail. First one at 131K. Replaced it with an AC-Delco unit, which failed at 166K.
But that HP you picked up from doing dizzy swaps in the 60/70's cars were due to the tunability of them: the centrifugal and vacuum advance portions. Change the weights, springs and cam profiles and you could dial in your rate and total amount of advance and at what RPM you wanted it to come in. The vacuum canister added even more tunability. Modern distributors (isn't that an oxymoron?) don't have any mechanism for mechanical or vacuum advance; the computer handles the timing. The distributor in our Fieros is just there to distribute the spark and drive the oil pump. There may also be a reason to upgrade for durability, features or packaging. The old cast iron Corvette distributors were sought after becuase they had the mechanical tach drive and were supposedly stronger if you were driving a high volume/pressure oil pump. Or you needed a smaller/lower cap for firewall/hood clearance. Or you wanted to ditch the points and go electronic triggering. Or having dual points so you could select two different timings at the flick of a switch or get increased dwell time. Without ditching the dizzy alltogether and going DIS, I think making the existing distrubutor as good as it can be would be worthwhile. Taking out the excess play, using a high quality brass insert cap/rotor, a good quality ICM with perhaps supplementary cooling heatsinks, verifying the clearance on the reluctor, etc. would be beneficial.
This guy has a point. Using the stock distributor housing but making "new" quality replacement parts. Something that could be better than stock, or to refurbish the distributor to factory specs, or better.
What he said : "Taking out the excess play, using a high quality brass insert cap/rotor, a good quality ICM with perhaps supplementary cooling heatsinks, verifying the clearance on the reluctor, etc. would be beneficial."
[This message has been edited by fierogt28 (edited 04-26-2013).]
The ignition pulse is built up during the time of rotation when the fingers and the flats on the rotating wheel are away from one another. Seems to me that the longer the duration between the time the fingers and the wheel are face to face, the more energy would be built up.
The flat surfaces of the stock distributor take up more space in the 360 degree rotation as opposed to the star type distributors. Say, 1/8 inch for 1 wheel surface and 1/8 for one finger surface. The signal could be discharged at any point when these two surfaces start to line up, not just when they're perfectly face to face. That could add up to 3/8 inch of the total rotation. This would reduce the time the signal had to build intensity between discharges. The star type has a more finite point of discharge so there is longer duration between face to face proximity, maybe giving time for a more intense signal to build.
This would need to be proven with a scope and using the same ICM and pickup coils in both type distributors.
The gap between the two different style distributors should also be considered. For any voltage and amperage, there is a specific gap in which the maximum discharge is achieved. If one of the old style fingers is closer or further away from the wheel, the voltage discharge on that cylinder will be affected and different from the others, them being the same.
I am in the middle of rebuilding my spare distibutor i.e adding a heat sink - can anyone point me in the right direcection as where to get the "new style" pick up with star wheel ?
The Cardone distributers (sold at your local auto parts store) have the new "star wheel" design.
edit to add: As far as I know, you can't retrofit an older distributer to use the star wheel. The design of the distributer body was changed so that it could mount the star wheel.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 10-06-2013).]
Because back in the late 60's and early 70's cars one could change the distributor and get HP gains. Distributors that are available today. So I wondered if this better looking distributor would provide an increase and if it was worth doing in my 88 Mera. I have the Miller Woods Stage II turbo on my stock 2.8 in my Mera.
Never heard that and I cut my teeth on those 60s and 70s cars, pun intended, now a new, back then distributer is not going to have play or I should say shouldn't have play anywhere, factory distributer. I grew up street drag racing back in the early 70s with 60s cars, worked at the factory in the late 70s. but that said when a distributer is new there should little to no play/slop in the shaft, there are minimum and max allowable tolerances for those and when they go beyond those they should be repaired replaced.
pickup coil, a new one with a new distributer is going to be as good as it gets as far as HP, factories spent tons of money on many things when they build new cars to make sure they got the most bang for the buck with the most dependable design. could that be improved upon? sure, but now add 20 or so years worth of wear on anything and it is going to degrade its performance. just had to replace that on mine, it was all rusty and the plastic covering, I think it is a plastic coating covering that, was disappearing and I had performance issues. but that was an old worn part like every part in our older cars.
when I worked at the factory we would put brand new state of the art parts in the cars, for the time, and even those brand new parts could be defective. the most common ones I remember were things like belts, hoses, and some electrical parts. same goes for today when you go to buy replacement parts, any replacement parts for any car, you can get a defective part even a NOS part.
improvements in parts are always being made, think going from points to electronic ignitions. but to be honest I don't think they did much as far as improving HP, just made regular maintenance items less.
Just my opinion.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Originally posted by jon m: can you buy just this type of pick up on its own or do you have to buy the complete distibutor?
The Cardone distributer and stock distributer use the same pickup coil. The difference is in the design of the distributer body. So you would have to buy the whole distributer.
right so what your saying is that the new style pick up coil will not fit on the old style distributor?? like what is the 2nd posting by fierosound.
Please note: I am not after or do not expect any power gains - I just want to rebuild a spare distributor and just add a heatsink to take some of the heat away from the ignition module. If I can I want to fit the new style pick up coil with the star wheel - it looks like a better design than the old type i.e not collecting any crud etc.
I just want to know if I can buy this type and where to buy it from
All opinions welcomed jon
[This message has been edited by jon m (edited 10-06-2013).]
right so what your saying is that the new style pick up coil will not fit on the old style distributor?? like what is the 2nd posting by fierosound.
Please note: I am not after or do not expect any power gains - I just want to rebuild a spare distributor and just add a heatsink to take some of the heat away from the ignition module. If I can I want to fit the new style pick up coil with the star wheel - it looks like a better design than the old type i.e not collecting any crud etc.
I just want to know if I can buy this type and where to buy it from
All opinions welcomed jon
Oh they all collect crud, all of them eventually, as far as heat sink goes, that is what the paste you put under the ignition module before installing it, don't forget it before you put the module in, it is supposed to turn the entire distributer body into a heat sink, I think, I could be mistaken, I was once I think, bust I was mistaken.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
thank you steve - However this does not answer my question - Can you buy the new style pick up with the star on its own and will it fit onto a distributor which had the old style pick up on and if so where can I get one from ???
I replaced my dist with a cardone ,seal from Rodney, heat sink from tlg I glued on with silver heat sink glue and silver heat sink compound from radio shack. No leaks and ran like a top. FL to n j
My 88 Formula's distributor is on it's last legs @ 84k miles. I'm thinking of reprogramming the ECM for DIS. Does anyone know if the 88 crank has the induction wheel so that adding DIS is just a matter of installing the crank sensor in the middle of the block?
IIRC, the '88 Fiero V6 has the wheel on the crankshaft, but the wheel doesn't have the timing notches cut in it. Also IIRC, the block has the boss for the crank sensor, but the hole isn't drilled. So the DIS conversion will take some work.
the second gen distributors are crap they fail faster than most ignition control modules. What i do:
get the magnet base from a 4.3 v6 and swap it on to a fiero with the copper cap on it. take a look on the interwebs at a 4.3 v6 distributor and you will know what i mean. Quickest start i have ever experienced and drove all over with no problems or over heating from the distributor. i think this is the best bang for the buck upgrade
Rodney if you were going to try to improve somethign i would venture to say new press on magnets and prongs on the shaft as the magnets break and loose their magnetic ability. Last time i saw a reconditioned shaft it was $100.
the second gen distributors are crap they fail faster than most ignition control modules. What i do:
get the magnet base from a 4.3 v6 and swap it on to a fiero with the copper cap on it. take a look on the interwebs at a 4.3 v6 distributor and you will know what i mean. Quickest start i have ever experienced and drove all over with no problems or over heating from the distributor. i think this is the best bang for the buck upgrade
Rodney if you were going to try to improve somethign i would venture to say new press on magnets and prongs on the shaft as the magnets break and loose their magnetic ability. Last time i saw a reconditioned shaft it was $100.
I know in the older GM cars (60-70's and probably many more years) you could put in a better distributor and easily find HP gains.
Wasnt the way older cars got more hp / mpg gains because they could pump more power through them with MSD box systems, etc? Not the distributor itself?
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 10-10-2013).]
The stock distributors are pretty rugged mechanically, Rodney, but the electrics not so much. Worse in my case as I run a turbo so it cooks everything, at least a bit, notwithstanding the custom heat shield I made up. Had to replace the distributor twice over the years.
Best set up of all is the DIS they used in the 3.4s. I use that in my 3.4 engine MG and IIRC the Fiero blocks came with the threaded port for the crank position sensor from 1987 or 1988. The 3.4 also runs a cam position sensor to run the sequential injection, but by selecting the right ECM you can eliminate that and just run the DIS set up.
I've almost finished my prototype cam sensor that goes in place of the dizzy so I can OBDII convert these possibly in the future Drops right in place of distributor.
