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Getting the automatic to work with an electric motor by JRP3
Started on: 08-13-2012 05:21 PM
Replies: 66 (1668 views)
Last post by: JRP3 on 09-28-2013 04:49 PM
FFIEROFRED
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Report this Post12-02-2012 09:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FFIEROFREDClick Here to Email FFIEROFREDSend a Private Message to FFIEROFREDEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In my son's fiero we are using a 4T60E with out a trans controler. He use's 3 toggle switchs to control the shift selonods and TCC. If you used a 3 speed computer controled trans you could control it with 2 toggle switchs ( no TCC ) and have it in what ever gear you liked at what ever speed you wanted. simple. cheap. KISS!
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JRP3
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Report this Post12-02-2012 10:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JRP3Click Here to visit JRP3's HomePageSend a Private Message to JRP3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Interesting. Any links to the setup?
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JRP3
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Report this Post03-09-2013 10:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JRP3Click Here to visit JRP3's HomePageSend a Private Message to JRP3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
After a few more issues with the coupler I finally got the motor and transmission back in and bolted together. Normally of course if using a TC you install the TC into the transmission by spinning it as you push in, then install the motor and bolt the TC to the flywheel. However I have no flywheel and it's not possible to access the taperlock bolts for the coupler with the motor installed since this transmission only has a small access hole, unlike a TH350/400, etc. I couldn't even get my hand up in there to rotate the coupler while drawing it together, so I sawzalled a slightly larger hole. Finally after much struggling I was able to get it mated properly and installed, coupler was a really tight fit, probably too tight, but it's in and I'm not taking it back out unless it breaks.
Now the shifter for the auto trans is in a slightly different location than the manual and is interfering with one of my battery banks, I think I can just remount the bank at a slight angle to clear the shifter.



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Stubby79
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Report this Post03-16-2013 03:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stubby79Send a Private Message to Stubby79Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Had a chance to put power to it and see if it works?
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FFIEROFRED
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Report this Post03-16-2013 05:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FFIEROFREDClick Here to Email FFIEROFREDSend a Private Message to FFIEROFREDEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
1. Use a "accusump" to maintain fluid presser at short stops.
2. You might want to delay the "regen" for 1 second after you lift. make it smoother in on and off again driving.
try to make it drive smooth. This is realy important in low speed stop and go driving.
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wftb
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Report this Post03-16-2013 07:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
most pure electric cars do not use a transmission at all , they are direct drive .an electric motor produces maximum torque at 0 rpm so it has no need for a transmission .so why are you wasting all that extra energy with a transmission ? why not just find a conventional rear wheel drive differential with a gear ratio you like and bolt the motor direct ? my apologies if you explained this elsewhere in the thread , i only skimmed threw .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 03-16-2013).]

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JRP3
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Report this Post03-17-2013 07:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JRP3Click Here to visit JRP3's HomePageSend a Private Message to JRP3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Stubby79:

Had a chance to put power to it and see if it works?

Not yet, still putting it back together, having to modify some stuff to make it fit.
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JRP3
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Report this Post03-17-2013 07:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JRP3Click Here to visit JRP3's HomePageSend a Private Message to JRP3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

JRP3

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quote
Originally posted by FFIEROFRED:

1. Use a "accusump" to maintain fluid presser at short stops.
2. You might want to delay the "regen" for 1 second after you lift. make it smoother in on and off again driving.
try to make it drive smooth. This is realy important in low speed stop and go driving.


1. Thought about that, but I don't know how fast this will leak down when stopped, and it might not work at longer stops.
2. Low speed driving is already very smooth, and you usually never need to use the brakes at all. You can modulate regen strength with the accelerator, and even hold it in a neutral position for coasting.
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JRP3
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Report this Post03-17-2013 07:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JRP3Click Here to visit JRP3's HomePageSend a Private Message to JRP3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

most pure electric cars do not use a transmission at all , they are direct drive .an electric motor produces maximum torque at 0 rpm so it has no need for a transmission .so why are you wasting all that extra energy with a transmission ? why not just find a conventional rear wheel drive differential with a gear ratio you like and bolt the motor direct ? my apologies if you explained this elsewhere in the thread , i only skimmed threw .



Besides the fabricating that would be involved to make that work the rear end ratio that I'd need would be around 7:1, plus my system doesn't have enough power to really work well with a single speed. My controller is limited to 120V, not the 300+V most OEM's use, so I lose torque after 4000RPM even though the motor will spin to 7500RPM. If I had more voltage it would keep the torque to higher RPM. Hopefully someday in the future....
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wftb
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Report this Post03-17-2013 06:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
4000 rpm with my car in fifth gear yields over 100 mph .fifth is an overdrive gear but lots of rear wheel drive straight axles have ratios of under 3:1 .you dont want to use the entire rpm range of your motor , just the best part of its range .a seven to one ratio would just kill your batteries faster .i would think a 100 mph top end would be acceptable for a car like yours .i havent seen it posted lately but the electric drag racing fiero uses a straight axle i think .but it is interesting to see how the auto transmission will perform .what kind of range did you get with the manual trans ?
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JRP3
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Report this Post03-17-2013 09:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JRP3Click Here to visit JRP3's HomePageSend a Private Message to JRP3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What you posted doesn't make sense. I don't want to use a low numerical ratio like 3:1 because as you say that might provide a ridiculous top speed, but would provide a terribly weak acceleration rate. My manual transmission gave me an overall 7:1 ratio in second gear, which would let me go up to 70 mph and still gave me decent but not great acceleration from 0-30 or so. First was a lot better at 12:1 but topped out around 45mph. With electric motors higher RPM means the motor sees higher voltage but lower current, which is more efficient, up to a point. Worth noting that most OEM single speed gear reductions are around 8:1. Borg Warner makes an E-drive gear reduction, for $3K http://blog.evtv.me/store/p....php?prod=eGearDrive
My manual trans gave me a max 50 mile range in mixed driving.
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wftb
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Report this Post03-17-2013 10:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
what is the HP / TQ rating of your motor ?with max TQ at 0 RPM , you do not need a high gear ratio to get decent acceleration .electrics get pretty lazy at high rpm's that is why most industrial motors run at 1800 -3600 rpm .
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JRP3
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Report this Post03-17-2013 10:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JRP3Click Here to visit JRP3's HomePageSend a Private Message to JRP3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As I mentioned a few posts above power at higher RPM is voltage dependent. Tesla, the fastest production EV, uses a motor that turns 14,000 RPM at 400+ volts. Unfortunately I don't have that type of system. My controller is limited to 120V and 550 amps max, which is 66 KW or 88 hp, and peak torque is 115 ft.lbs, so I need a higher gear ratio to multiply torque for decent acceleration, and a multi speed transmission to optimize the power band. It was totally drivable using only 2nd gear but weaker than I'd like sometimes on take off, plus it ran out of power above 60 mph on hills.
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diabloroadster
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Report this Post03-17-2013 11:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for diabloroadsterSend a Private Message to diabloroadsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
JRP3 - I just sent you a PM.
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JRP3
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Report this Post05-19-2013 10:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JRP3Click Here to visit JRP3's HomePageSend a Private Message to JRP3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Finally got this thing working. The last setback was after I put every thing together and spun the motor up I had a leak coming from between the motor and transmission. I figured the seal was leaking from too much run out on the adapter, but when I looked up into the bell housing I could see the trans fluid coming from the motor side. Apparently the machinist never pressure checked the coupler and some of the welds must not have been airtight and fluid was being forced out the back of the coupler. Frankly I never thought to check for pressure either so partly my fault. So once again I had to undo a bunch of wiring, pull the controller, and pull the motor back to take the coupler off, and had a plug machined to seal it up. Put it all back together and drove it around a bit. I still have to hook up the external pump to keep the trans pressurized when stopped but it does seem to be working and shifting as it should, though I would like to raise the shift points higher. I also need to get a check valve to put inline with the pump so the trans doesn't overpressurize it.
I had to get a new TPS for my throttle signal since the old one I had was erratic, not surprising since it came off a car sitting outside with no hood for years.
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PatrickTRoof
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Report this Post05-20-2013 12:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickTRoofClick Here to Email PatrickTRoofSend a Private Message to PatrickTRoofEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Amazing job! Have you thought about putting some solar panels on the hood and deck to extend your range or at least help power the accessories?
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JRP3
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Report this Post05-20-2013 08:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JRP3Click Here to visit JRP3's HomePageSend a Private Message to JRP3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes I've thought about it, and I have a 12V panel I might mount just for the accessories, but the way I calculated it even covering the trunk, roof, and hood would only give me about 6 more miles. Not worth the time and money at this point, but maybe someday. I wouldn't be the first though:

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JRP3
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Report this Post06-03-2013 01:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JRP3Click Here to visit JRP3's HomePageSend a Private Message to JRP3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Anyone know if the dipstick tube exits above the filter or not? My pump which is drawing from a tube that I slid down the dipstick tube builds pressure and shuts off, but after cycling on and off a few times starts sucking air. I thought I was hitting the bottom of the pan with my tube but thought maybe it was hitting the top of the filter instead. Just trying to get an idea before I drop the pan to look.
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mattwa
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Report this Post06-03-2013 02:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JRP3:
Most of the time I just used 2nd gear anyway which was good up to 65mph but occasionally I'd speed shift it if I wanted 1st for better acceleration.


And there is your problem. The Isuzu's weakest point is 2nd gear, and frequently fails even in low power situations. Speed shifting would just make it that much worse.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 06-03-2013).]

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JRP3
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Report this Post06-03-2013 10:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JRP3Click Here to visit JRP3's HomePageSend a Private Message to JRP3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah I pretty much figured that out a year ago when it broke.
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JRP3
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Report this Post06-13-2013 09:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JRP3Click Here to visit JRP3's HomePageSend a Private Message to JRP3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Figured out my problem was I just didn't have enough fluid in the transmission. I also increased the size of the suction hose on the pump from 5/16 to 3/8 to match the output hose and avoid any restrictions. Now it's building and holding pressure and seems to be working as intended, though the higher gearing of the auto compared to the manual makes it a little slower off the line, and it seems to be drawing a bit more current than with the manual. Might be just the rebuilt auto trans needing to break in some, I hope. I might look into regearing the final drive ratio for better low end, as it is now I can do over 50mph in first.
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solotwo
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Report this Post06-13-2013 10:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for solotwoSend a Private Message to solotwoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This is very interesting. What is the range with the batteries fully charged?
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JRP3
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Report this Post06-13-2013 10:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JRP3Click Here to visit JRP3's HomePageSend a Private Message to JRP3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
50 miles max range in mixed driving.
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solotwo
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Report this Post06-13-2013 10:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for solotwoSend a Private Message to solotwoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That's not bad. That is about what Nissan Leaf owners are really getting.
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JRP3
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Report this Post06-13-2013 10:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JRP3Click Here to visit JRP3's HomePageSend a Private Message to JRP3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah, but that is a larger, taller, heavier vehicle, with a more powerful motor, and to get my 50 mile max range I'm taking my pack almost all the way down, which the LEAF won't let you do. Most of the time I never take it beyond 40 miles on a charge to avoid deep discharge. I have about half the battery capacity of the LEAF.
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s550w
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Report this Post09-28-2013 01:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for s550wSend a Private Message to s550wEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Have you done a write-up of your car? It seems like every year I do searches about the subject but, never take it further. Cost seems ambiguous most of the time and the range issue. 50 miles though is decent enough I could drive all over my little town and not worry for a few days.

Brian
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JRP3
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Report this Post09-28-2013 04:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JRP3Click Here to visit JRP3's HomePageSend a Private Message to JRP3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There was a build thread here but I don't know where it went. The more extensive build thread is here:
EViero build thread
If you don't want to go through the entire 30+ page thread I can give a summary:
My total cost is around $14,000.
Three phase AC motor and controller $4500
36 LiFePO4 100 amp hour cells $4500
40 amp PFC Charger $2500
Motor adapter and coupler $600
Meanwell DC/DC converter $150
Those are the major items, there are ways to spend less on some of them, or more.
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