Does anyone know how difficult it would be to swap a 3.6 LY7 and a G6 6speed into a fiero? Does anyone make a plug and play harness yet? This is an ideal swap in my opinion, just not sure about the electronics side of things. After researching I found and 2008 Cadillac CTS 3.6 with 20,000 miles for $1200 ( the car was rearended). Then the G6 transmission is about 400. so im looking at a ~$2000 dollar swap? I'm doing all the work so no labor costs lol. Like I said, electronic issues are my main concern. Anybody do this already? Recommendations? Good news is the engine produces 263 hp and 255 torque and runs great so If all goes well I might have to jump on this project and give the little 2.8 a rest. THanks for any input
------------------ 1987 FIERO GT X2 Both 5 SPEEDs Both Beasts
Well, in a perfect world $2000 swap would be it, but lets face it, it's not perfect!
You are going to get nickeled and dimed everywhere, have to get a fuel pump, upgrade and custom make a few parts, spend time on the wiring harness (no plug and play harnesses that I know of), and will take R&D to mate up everything perfectly with new mounts. Don't forget plate metal costs, mount costs, clutch and flywheel costs, also if needed, adapter plate machining...
For the swap, I would GUESS, on the safe side with those prices you list, you are looking @ around 5000-6000 bucks for a swap if you do it yourself, on a safe side. My Camaro's V8 swap was supposed to be $500, cause I got a free engine, and just bought the T-5 manual and TPI setup from a scrapheap. $4000 later I am still playing with it :P.
All you really need is patience, and know your way around a wiring diagram, and you can wire it up no problem. Plan on at minimum a few days spent just wiring.
Well since you put it that way, i guess it will take a lot more than expected however still in the game for it. 5k is quite a bit but It wont be an overnight project anyways lol. Thats why i have 2 gt's. Whats your camaro motor an ls1?
[This message has been edited by ALL_CAMMED_UP (edited 05-07-2012).]
Personally, if I did that swap, I'd get the entire drivetrain (engine and 6 speed automatic transaxle) out of a FWD car or minivan. (I've driven a 6 speed automatic CTS with that engine. I usually hate automatics, but I really liked that one. And the FWD gear spacing appears to be even better.)
Get the PCM, BCM and every other electronic bit you can think of, probably to include the dash. Everything wants to talk to, and hear from, everything else. If a module is missing somewhere, it'll set a code. Some of that stuff can be disabled. Several people on this forum claim to be able to do it. But nobody has. Yet.
Generally, although it would make a sweeeeet swap, IMHO there are a lot better options if "bang for the buck" is a major consideration.
------------------ Raydar 88 Formula IMSA Fastback. 4.9, NVG T550 Praise the Lowered!
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-07-2012).]
I was just looking into this swap, but using a 2012 malibu 3.6l Engine. I can get engine and transmission with only 17,000 miles on them for 1250$. I was told buy a GM tec that the 3.6l engine is junk and they need to go back to the 3400 engine. Still might give it a shot.
Ahh this was my ideal swap because i was looking for more power than the 4.9 at a lesser price than an lsx engines. I'm absolutly getting a manual wanted to upgrade to a 6 but price might make me go 5 depending, but we'll see. But as you say everything runs as one in the new vehicles and they're not as easy to work on as the older motors. I've been back and forth on which swaps to do and my top 5 would be:
1) Ls1 (or Ls2/Ls3) GTO motor would be sweet 2) northstar 4.6 3) 3.8 sc 4) 4.9 - but only have just over 200hp! lotta torque tho. 5) 3.4 - power and gas mileage.
By personal opinion i don't want to offend anyone..! I was told that the N* was incredibly difficult to swap in and the 3.8s are hard to find low miles around here, i don't want a 100k engine that needs rebuilt. Therefore this motor would fit right in between 1 and 2 power wise and probably price wise as well. However I thaught this might be easier to work with than a N*.
I was just looking into this swap, but using a 2012 malibu 3.6l Engine. I can get engine and transmission with only 17,000 miles on them for 1250$. I was told buy a GM tec that the 3.6l engine is junk and they need to go back to the 3400 engine. Still might give it a shot.
Since youre in Ohio you might be looking at engines at the same place I am. WeberBrothersAuto.com they have many engines and transmissions out of late model cars. If your close to PA border it could be worth a look
That 3.6 is a high feature engine, I didn't think there was a manual transmission available for those in a fwd configuration.
The pontiac G6 gxp had a 6 speed transmission option, And if i do remember correctly they also had the 3.6 as a engine option. Which in a perfect world you could find a rearended g6 3.6 F40 6 speed and use as your powerplant.
The pontiac G6 gxp had a 6 speed transmission option, And if i do remember correctly they also had the 3.6 as a engine option. Which in a perfect world you could find a rearended g6 3.6 F40 6 speed and use as your powerplant.
The 3.6 and F40 were not offered in the G6 concurrently. The F40 was optional with the 3900. When GM put the 3.6 in the car, they dropped the stickshift option. The only manual transmission that will work with the 3.6 engine is the F40 from a Saab 9-3 with the 2.8 turbo.
quote
Originally posted by ALL_CAMMED_UP: By personal opinion i don't want to offend anyone..! I was told that the N* was incredibly difficult to swap in and the 3.8s are hard to find low miles around here, i don't want a 100k engine that needs rebuilt. Therefore this motor would fit right in between 1 and 2 power wise and probably price wise as well. However I thaught this might be easier to work with than a N*.
The 3.6 should be easier to fit than the Northstar, but that's all. If you want a stick, you need the Saab F40, and that's not a cheap transmission, nor is the installation in a Fiero cheap. Also, the 3.6 wiring will be more involved than the Northstar's due to the VVT. This also means that you must use the stock computer. There are no other options like there are for the Northstar (7730, Shelby 0411, etc.) And no one's done it yet, so you'll be breaking new ground
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-08-2012).]
The 3.6 in the Malibu and G6 is not the same direct injection 3.6 that is offered in the Cadillac. The CTS is, of course rear wheel drive so the automatic tranny wouldn't work in your swap. Off hand, the only FWD cars I can think of that use the direct injection Cadillac engine would be the current Buick LaCross and the Cadillac 2wd SRX. Both of those cars have the 6 speed automatics (note that you would have to make sure the LaCross isn't AWD since it comes that way as well).
93 saab areo for manual trans but be willing to pay around $1000 for it and i would make sure i got a latter engine due to they had timing chain problems that they blamed on oil changes in the LY7
I believe the CTS 3.6 was available with the manual too. Don't know if the tranny bolt patterns are the same as the FWD version, though. You might be able to "borrow" a PCM (or flash) from one of those.
BTW... I believe that bmwguru is doing a Saab 2.8. That would be an excellent "start" for the electronics, unless he's doing something else.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-08-2012).]
I have heard rumors of a Saab F40 with the high feature bolt pattern.
You do get nickel-and-dimed with the F40 swap. The cheapest decent clutch, the Spec 3, is $380 shipped; the flywheel is at least $50. Shipping on the transmission was $200 for me. Axles were $120 (using the weak Cobalt axles. Stronger ones were $840). You need Roger Thelin's hydraulic adapter.
The 2008 up 3.6 all have about identical HP and torque it just depends on the programming, exhaust, etc. Therefore it doesn't really matter if it comes from a pontiac, caddy, or chevy. I'm interested in the cadillac one because of it's low miles and relatively cheap price for a new motor like this one. Although looking through the threads I hear a lot of complaining on the price of the F40 and 9-3 transmissions...thats true. But remember, you want to play you gotta pay.
I was told buy a GM tec that the 3.6l engine is junk and they need to go back to the 3400 engine. Still might give it a shot.
That stems from a flaw in the head design that leads to heads/camshafts self destructing resulting in the replacement of both. From what I remember that was the earlier 3.6 high feature V6, I believe the problem has been (somewhat) resolved.
That 3.6 is better off with the transmission it came with and all the electricals.
On the 4.9 side, I carb'd mine and I can tell you the carb transforms the engine. My 290 ftlb clutch can't hold it and I am installing a 417 ftlb next week.
I have a friend with a 500 hp Fiero and it is scary fast. Not easy in town even in automatic
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the radiator. I am installing a 3 core because the stock one won't keep up without help
I am using the stock computer on my setup. The wiring is actually easier than the 3800s/c once you figure out the CAN lines and the power relay/fuel system stuff.
I was told buy a GM tec that the 3.6l engine is junk and they need to go back to the 3400 engine.
That's somewhat of a surprise, had a few 3400's and all had issues, especially with the LIM gaskets. Our 2005 Buick 3.6 has north of 130K on it and it still winds like nuts in a heavy vehicle and not one problem since new. Could be we're just lucky I guess...
BR's,
Mark
------------------ 86 SE V6 4 speed 86 SE V6 Auto 2008 G6 GT "Street" Coupe 2005 Buick 3.6 Rendezvous 2001 Olds Silhouette (AKA The Band Van)
There are a few GM articles on the 3.6 using excessive oil. The repair is to replace pistons.(go figure) Have seen first hand on an Equalnox having destroyed a vacuum booster due to it being half full of oil from blowby. The dealer had several boosters in stock. that should tell you something. A manager of mine had a CTS and it used oil also. The original back round of this family of engine stems from the Holden 56 degree series. Saturn/Saab 3.0. Those didn't seem to be that bad except to work on them. Don't get me wrong. They do have a lot of balls, but are working hard to do so.
That's what was stated in the bulletins that GM submitted to Michell's and Identifix. There were no statements of causes. I don't know if these have hit the machine shops yet. Just that GM knows there is an issue.
Probably similar to the classic "piston slap" in the early LSx series V8s. The hyperteutectic pistons would lose a little clearance when cold. The early LSx engines also had lots of complaints about oil consumption.
I'm sure once they iron out these issues (hopefully) it will be a plentiful and badass line of mills perfect for the Fiero- replacing something akin to the LQ1 except with a very nice bump in power.
One engine I'm surprised isn't a popular swap here is the LM7 or its harder to find all aluminum brother- the LM4. 5.3 LS based Vortec that can be had for pennies (same or cheaper than 3800s even) with a bottom end reputed to be also as strong. It definitely drives the LS swap cost down some, not to mention they can gain just under ~100hp from a cam swap
[This message has been edited by nitroheadz28 (edited 10-11-2013).]
Originally posted by nitroheadz28: ... One engine I'm surprised isn't a popular swap here is the LM7
I've got one in my Silverado. I've often thought that it would be a hell of an engine in a Fiero. But it comes with all of the fabrication issues inherent with any LS swap. The LS4, which is more compact, still requires a good deal of fabrication or "shoe horning".
Pay attention to the GenV 4.3 V6. When I first heard about it I thought, "How long is GM going to milk that tired old '3/4 350' platform?" Wrong! All that it's got in common with the old 4.3 V6 is the displacement, cylinder count, and maybe bore spacing. It's all new. Based on the the GenV "LS" architecture, including D.I. 280 HP in a pushrod V6.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-11-2013).]
Sorry about that. Reread some of the back round. The High feature is a new design. They do have a lot of similarities though. The 3.6 does have bulletins. Have seen them and read them. The car companies need to do more for dependability rather than features. I realize features sell. We are all getting to the point where we need the dependability more than bragging rights.
Originally posted by nitroheadz28: I'm sure once they iron out these issues (hopefully) it will be a plentiful and badass line of mills perfect for the Fiero- replacing something akin to the LQ1 except with a very nice bump in power.
One engine I'm surprised isn't a popular swap here is the LM7 or its harder to find all aluminum brother- the LM4. 5.3 LS based Vortec that can be had for pennies (same or cheaper than 3800s even) with a bottom end reputed to be also as strong. It definitely drives the LS swap cost down some, not to mention they can gain just under ~100hp from a cam swap
The LM7 is Gen III, so not really a great motor. It's LSx based, which is nice, but it's early, so not very refined. They are easy to find cheap, but they were afflicted with the oil consumption and piston slap issues of the early LSx engines. The Gen IV versions of any LSx engine are much better.
Originally posted by cmechmann: Sorry about that. Reread some of the back round. The High feature is a new design. They do have a lot of similarities though. The 3.6 does have bulletins. Have seen them and read them. The car companies need to do more for dependability rather than features. I realize features sell. We are all getting to the point where we need the dependability more than bragging rights.
Unforeseen issues come up in almost any vehicle platform and engine that exists on the market. Even million dollar super cars have service bulletins.
Also note that the service bulletins and recalls are not any more exact than the engines themselves were. They are may effect issuances, not does effect statements. Also, the minority who are affected will generally be much louder about it, than those who have no problem and simply drive their car and quickly have their vehicles returned to them, without having been affected by the recall. Given the number of these cars I've seen on the road versus the number of complaints I"ve found on-line when searching for the issues, I'd hardly call dependability a true problem.
Just curious if any one else has done a ly6 f40 swap? I was thinking of doing a lk9 or lsj but having owned 2 ly7's in the past this swap really appeals to me. I want to use the 08 torrent gxp / equinox sport version with a custom intake manifold. Also of memory serves those versions bolt to the cradle.
I am using the stock computer on my setup. The wiring is actually easier than the 3800s/c once you figure out the CAN lines and the power relay/fuel system stuff.
Yeah, I just happen to be really close with the local Saab dismantlers, having been a customer for 20 years. I get good prices.
The Saab 2.8t was the only High Feature engine available with a FWD manual trans, I think, so if you can find one with the F40 for cheap, you're doing well.
The 3.6 in the Malibu and G6 is not the same direct injection 3.6 that is offered in the Cadillac. The CTS is, of course rear wheel drive so the automatic tranny wouldn't work in your swap. Off hand, the only FWD cars I can think of that use the direct injection Cadillac engine would be the current Buick LaCross and the Cadillac 2wd SRX. Both of those cars have the 6 speed automatics (note that you would have to make sure the LaCross isn't AWD since it comes that way as well).
The Saab 2.8t was the only High Feature engine available with a FWD manual trans, I think, so if you can find one with the F40 for cheap, you're doing well.
I would really like to use that engine, but I am a little afraid of Trionic 8 (not many people tune it) and I'm not a fan of turbocharged mid-engined cars, as intercooling is a PITA.
