So i've been inspired by all the other good looking rustoleum jobs out there; some of them on this forum, and have decided do try my hand at it. I am taking the fiero body apart one piece at a time, sanding, repairing, priming, painting and reinstalling the finished part. So far i've got the bumper and hood done. Its Gloss Navy color. I could only find this color online for some reason. I am having a problem with orange skin effect. I am using a gravity feed HVLP. What should the paint/thinner ratio be? Right now i have it at 60 paint/ 40 thinner. It evens itself out after a while, so it isnt a huge problem, but i would still like to make it stop.
I'm no expert at painting and don't know how RustO would need to be mixed. But an orange peel affect would seem to be due to contaminates not completely removed on the surface or possibly not thinned quit enough so that the paint is not atomizing fine enough.
I guess I'd lean toward not being thinned enough since the roll on painters really thin it down to get a good flow. Would have to watch runs doing that so might need to cut back the paint feed adjustment and go a little drier but enough so it smooths out.
Just my thoughts..
I do agree with Tha Driver. if your pulling panels it does make since to do a base clear as would last a lot longer then RustO.
[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 03-08-2011).]
Seriously? You're going to the trouble to take the car apart, do all the prep right, & SPRAYING on rustoleum paint??? After all that trouble why don't you use a quality base/clear? I know it costs more but you'll regret using the rustoleum after a few months. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
I painted my 85 GT with black Rustoleum and thinned 20%. It has minimal orange peel. I just recently painted my 84 with Regal Red Rustoleum and thinned it 25%. The red orange peeled badly. Being an amatuer painter, I'm not sure of the cause. I know it was much warmer in the shop when I had the orange peel problem. I am thinking the thinner[acetone] and the warmer shop may have prevented the Rusto from flowing out before setting. Also, I usualy wipe a car down with laquer thinner before painting. This time I used a cleaner/solvent and that may have contributed to the problem. I do know that it takes a lot of sanding to remove orange peel, and I hate sanding. Good luck on your project.
The whole point of the rustoleum is that it can be rolled on if your going to spray use legitimate paint. Granted rustoleum jobs can look great theres just no good reason not to use good automotive paints if your going to spray it.
acetone will evapoate very quickly and make the paint set up quickly also causing orange peel effect. another important thing is the size of the tip your HVLP has. you need one that will atomize the paint good.i agree with others here, if you're going to so much trouble, get a base/clear for the job. Dutch
The point of spraying rustoleum is that the materials cost of the project is 10th of what it would have been and my painting abilities probably arent good enough to appreciate that slight improvement that an extra 300 dollars of automotive acrylic would have brought me. And i'm a weird, unconventional, totally confused moron. @BJC350: Were you using gravity feed HVLP? What psi in the gun? The way i understand it is that the paint needs to flow out of the nozzle on its own and gets blasted into mist by the air nozzles, if it dribbles out with the fluid setting maxed out, it isnt gonna work. When i painted the bumper it was 30/70 acetone/paint, the problem subsided a little when i changed it to 40/60 on the hood. Maybe i need to go 50/50 next time.
The hood vents are just a prefab fiberglass piece that you can find on the internet, fiber-glassed into a hole that you will cut on the hood. You can get a fiber glassing repair kit at autozone including sheets of fiber glass and resin if you dont have an auto body supply shop around. Its really pretty easy.
So I'm seeing a lot of "Acetone" related answers here. Acetone dries quicker than lacquer thinner and is much more harsh. Since when did Rustoleum get away from thinning their paints with mineral spirits? That was the reason most of the Rustoleum paint jobs on this forum look glossy. They were thinned with mineral spirits which do not accelerate drying times of the paint. They may even make the paint dry slower which results in a high-gloss finish. Make sure their isn't the usual bullshit EPA "fine-print" which says you have to thin with acetone rather than mineral spirits due to "safety". Check the other Rustoleum threads on here. I don't believe ANYONE used the acetone to thin their paint. It was all mineral spirits.
This is from another website:
quote
1. Pour the Rust-Oleum paint into the 5 gallon bucket.
2. Add the mineral spirits to the paint at a 5 percent ratio.
3. Stir the mineral spirits and the Rust-Oleum paint together, using the wooden stir stick. Stir for at least five minutes to ensure an even distribution.
Originally posted by MordacP: Were you using gravity feed HVLP? What psi in the gun? The way i understand it is that the paint needs to flow out of the nozzle on its own and gets blasted into mist by the air nozzles, if it dribbles out with the fluid setting maxed out, it isnt gonna work. When i painted the bumper it was 30/70 acetone/paint, the problem subsided a little when i changed it to 40/60 on the hood. Maybe i need to go 50/50 next time.
I know I'm not him but you should be shooting around 50 psi at the regulator. Dial it in til you have a good atomized stream with minimal overspray
You don't wanna cut above 15% as the more acetone you use the less the paint will flow out and that will cause orange peel
Mineral spirits does work best, but unless you have a heated garage or live in a warm climate it will take forever to dry
Oh you are in California... Use spirits
[This message has been edited by FriendOfYours (edited 03-10-2011).]
I know I'm not him but you should be shooting around 50 psi at the regulator. Dial it in til you have a good atomized stream with minimal overspray
You don't wanna cut above 15% as the more acetone you use the less the paint will flow out and that will cause orange peel
Mineral spirits does work best, but unless you have a heated garage or live in a warm climate it will take forever to dry
Oh you are in California... Use spirits
FIFTY psi??? OK this may not apply to crap paint like rustoleum, but you DO know what "HVLP" means, right? (It's "high volume low pressure".) Even a regular siphon feed gun only runs at around 35 psi... ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
The point of spraying rustoleum is that the materials cost of the project is 10th of what it would have been and my painting abilities probably arent good enough to appreciate that slight improvement that an extra 300 dollars of automotive acrylic would have brought me. And i'm a weird, unconventional, totally confused moron.
If you can shoot rustoleum, you can damn sure shoot base/clear. That "slight improvement" you're talking about is a show-quality finish that will last for decades (instead of months). That "extra $300" may not quite cover it, but if you went with PPG epoxy primer & dupont Nason base/clear it might come close - AND you'd be able to shoot it any cool color you want... It's not too late to wash off the two panels you've shot & do a REALLY nice job. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
If you can shoot rustoleum, you can damn sure shoot base/clear. That "slight improvement" you're talking about is a show-quality finish that will last for decades (instead of months). That "extra $300" may not quite cover it, but if you went with PPG epoxy primer & dupont Nason base/clear it might come close - AND you'd be able to shoot it any cool color you want... It's not too late to wash off the two panels you've shot & do a REALLY nice job. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
I thought rustoleum actually lasts a very long time. Am I mistaken? This is just from what I've read.
I thought rustoleum actually lasts a very long time. Am I mistaken? This is just from what I've read.
It won't hold it's gloss anywhere near like base/clear. Also, the color will fade a lot quicker. The clear acts like a "sunscreen" to block out UV rays & keep the color from fading. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
I did use an HVLP gun with a 1.4 tip on both my paint jobs. They were set between 35/38 # at the gun. I used acetone because Rustoleum says to"thin material only with mineral spirits or acetone." The Rustoleum dries so slowly when thinning with mineral spirits, that, years ago when i painted trucks and machinery with it, the finish would gather a lot of debris while drying. So, I tried the acetone and it seems to work fine. I'm not sure why my second job ended up with unaceptable orange peel. I do agree, that using even an inexpensive single stage automotive paint would likely give a better finish than Rustoleum can muster. But, when you pay $200 for a car, it's tough to justify paying that much for the paint. Rustoleum is $8.99 to $10.99 a quart and it takes less than three quarts. The acetone did not seem to hinder the gloss levels much, if at all.
If anybody (besides Paul, who's position is well known by all and has been expressed multiple times on several threads) has any advice on how to prevent orange peel with Rust-O coming from an HVLP, i would like to hear it.
I've been asked to stop posting in this thread so this will be my last. Even though he doesn't want my opinion, it may help others so I'm posting it anyway. The orange peel is a product of one or both of two things: 1) Thinning the paint & the way that makes it spray. Since I don't shoot rustoleum, this may not apply but with other paint (such as acrylic enamel) I used to thin it more to reduce orange peel. Had to shoot an extra coat on to make up for it. 2) Drying time. Paint like rustoleum & acrylic enamel flows out after it's shot on the car. If it dries too quickly & is sprayed with orange peel it will not flow out. If it drys too slowly it will run or attract a lot of dust. With rustoleum (& a lot of other paints) the drying time will depend on the type of reducer & the temperature. Moral of the story is when experimenting do test panels to see what works, before shooting the car. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
FIFTY psi??? OK this may not apply to crap paint like rustoleum, but you DO know what "HVLP" means, right? (It's "high volume low pressure".) Even a regular siphon feed gun only runs at around 35 psi... ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
He's doing this cheap. I must have missed him saying he shoots gravity feed. Still around 35-40 is what you need to use as you can shoot rustoleum at low pressure because it's way too viscous
I'm no expert, but Some info I found: "Needle/Nozzle wrong size Select and use the correct needle/nozzle size based on the coating you are spraying. The spray gun manufacturer/supplier and/or the coating manufacturer/supplier can recommend the best size. Generally, a smaller needle/nozzle atomizes the finish better but reduces fluid flow and fan width. The thicker the finish, the larger the needle needed.
Insufficient air pressure/volume Adjust the atomization air pressure to the minimum setting needed to produce a fine spray. Too little atomization air pressure will produce larger droplets and a center-weighted spray pattern. Too much air will produce excessive overspray, dry spray, and/or the finish will dry before it flows level. Make sure the compressor supplies enough air, in cubic feet per minute (CFM) for the spray gun you're using.
Viscosity of coating Thin the finish, as needed, to achieve the proper viscosity. Properly thinned, the finish should atomize into tiny droplets that flow out and level. If the finish is too thick, it will spray in larger droplets. If it's too thin, you will get sags/runs unless you spray very thin coats.
Fluid flow Adjust the fluid flow to get the best atomization at the current air settings. Too much fluid flow for the amount of atomizing air will result in large droplets (poorly atomized). Too little fluid will dry before flowing level.
Spray gun distance/speed Maintain the recommended distance from the spray surface. Depending on the spray gun and settings, a constant distance in the range 6" - 10" inches is generally best. Maintain a steady hand speed during each spray pass, from end to end, that lays down an even wet coat in the thickness range recommended by the coating manufacturer. Use a wet mil gauge to measure the wet film thickness.
Envirnomental conditions In hot weather, the finish can dry before flowing out. Use a slower evaporating thinner (retarder). Excessive air flow over the sprayed surface will cause the finish to dry before flowing out. Avoid strong air current over the drying surface." - But I do know you can always fix orange peel with a wetsand and buff.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 03-11-2011).]
I have been looking all over the net for those vents. I have used Google Shopping, Summit, JEGS, eBay, and even Amazon. The closest that I have found are the 93-97 Firebird vents.
You can make a car look really nice with spray cans. I've seen it done many time. The worst part about it is you will never get the true shine as you would with a paint gun no matter what you would do. With all the work and headaches your dealing with and cost its always good to spend a few more $ hell you yourself could spray that car with everything you need for 200$
IMO the "cost" argument doesn't hold water. A car can be painted with a quality base /clear polyurethane for $150 that will last for years.
In regards to your orange peel, experimentation is your best bet, there are so many factors that can cause it. I've never been able to totally eliminate it though. As long a it isn't excessive, its probably best to just sand it. Note that if you plan on sanding, you really need to clear it anyways Though. Just sanding the base coat typically just dulls it, and is impossible with a metallic color.
Not to change the subject, but dont you need some kind of flex agent in the paint for these plastic panels?
With rustoleum enamel, maybe. I've never tried it. But with an automotive polyurethane, absolutely not. That stuff is flexible enough to take a hit on a car bumper and not crack. If you let it cure in a paint cup, it comes out like a jello mold.
IMO the "cost" argument doesn't hold water. A car can be painted with a quality base /clear polyurethane for $150 that will last for years.
In regards to your orange peel, experimentation is your best bet, there are so many factors that can cause it. I've never been able to totally eliminate it though. As long a it isn't excessive, its probably best to just sand it. Note that if you plan on sanding, you really need to clear it anyways Though. Just sanding the base coat typically just dulls it, and is impossible with a metallic color.
While I personally cringe at RustO on a Fiero. If that is what someone decided to go with, meh it's their car. I do agree with above. I have spryed DuPont, PPG, Sherwin, and every other paint known to man....not on cars per say but I have sprayed almost every brand on something (at work, I make one off prototypes of products). I recently was in a budget crunch when my 88 Coupe needed paint. $800 for primer, base, and clear from PPG. $250 for primer, base and clear from Paint For Cars. I decided to chance it. I have never used it and being that cheap I was skeptical of the quality of paint. The paint sprayed perfect. Just like the high dollar stuff, with no problems at all. Here are the results.
From this....
To this..
Either way what you have done looks great! Regardless of what paint you used. I think you will be happy with the results regardless..
While I personally cringe at RustO on a Fiero. If that is what someone decided to go with, meh it's their car. I do agree with above. I have spryed DuPont, PPG, Sherwin, and every other paint known to man....not on cars per say but I have sprayed almost every brand on something (at work, I make one off prototypes of products). I recently was in a budget crunch when my 88 Coupe needed paint. $800 for primer, base, and clear from PPG. $250 for primer, base and clear from Paint For Cars. I decided to chance it. I have never used it and being that cheap I was skeptical of the quality of paint. The paint sprayed perfect. Just like the high dollar stuff, with no problems at all. Here are the results.
Curly
Curly, that ia amazing, you did yourself proud.
I've got a question, is the $250 for primer, base and clear from Paint For Cars something that I can roll on instead of spraying? I don't have spray equipment, couldn't use a spray rattle can to save myself either but I'm very good with rollers and brushes. It's my old 86 silver beater, not looking for showroom, the current paint is destroyed, can it be done with rollers?
Found some paint, this is the stuff I sould use right? Silver paint
I've seen many of the $50 dollar rustoleum threads on the net, metal bodied cars mostly, don't to spend big bucks on this, the car may be going up for sale.
Feedback please?
[This message has been edited by jetman (edited 07-29-2012).]
jetman: I did the roller rustoleum job and it came out better than I had hoped. That being said, I would probably spray my next job with real car paint - the roller was too labor intensive to do it again.
I think I will try this paint method on a spare rear decklid I have to see how it turns out first.Than maybe the entire car because $$$$ is definitely a problem right now with all my medical bills.
I have the hvlp gun kit from harbor freight but I plan on using the duplicolor paint from Advance auto, its not too expensive at $25 a quart and there is a better selection of automotive colors.
I can get a car to look good out of spray cans. The problem with not using good automotive paint is it doesnt last as long. If your car is garaged kept you have the best chance. Weather and sun beat on it though.
Its someones own car to do whatever they want. Its great if your making a car look good cheap before selling it.
Heres the facts on Rustoleum:
1.Its oil based paint. Car paints are not ever oil based. 2.Its thinned with only mineral spirits (oil) or acetone 3.Its never to be thinned more than 5% (reading it right off a can in front of me). You cant spray it thinned 5% except with a pressure pot, and it will ALWAYS severely orange peel. 4. It has a high lead content. 5. It has no UV protection. 6.You cant use automotive waxes or polishes...they soften the finish being oil based. 7.If you ever paint the car with real auto paint, every bit of the oil base paint MUST be removed (sanded or blasted). The new paint can split and bubble when it hardens over the oil base. The oil paint never completely cures hard (it has oil in it that prevents rust). Dont believe it...wipe motor or mineral oil over a scrap piece of metal then try to paint over it.
I agree 100% with Driver on this. You would do better with a can of household enamel from Lowes or Home Depot. The good thing with Rustoleum on a car is it prevents body rust...a problem thats non existant on a Fiero. It is however great for frame and undercarriage/motor parts. I painted my tow dolly with black and silver Rustoleum because it sets outside 24/7 all year round and will never be washed or waxed.
interesting topic. I am thinking about foam rollering my '73 Int'l pickup. The current paint is old, faded, cracking. Someone painted parts of the truck at one time, but that is peeling off. So, I am going to get some implement paint from the tractor store, thin it, and roll it on this winter. Sure, it won't be show quality, but it will look better and seal up the metal (and the patches that I have to do). Can I have it spray painted? Sure... as I don't have the room to do it myself, but the cost is still to high and we don't have a Macco or similar shop. It should be fun to try!
