I've been told no, impossible but am at a loss why I can't get this damn car to run; 88 2.5.
I've replaced everything but it just will not run by itself. Best I can get is a very rough idle by manually operating the TB inlet so she's cracked open but it sounds like the timing is off.

Only if it's broke a tooth on one of the gears, usually when one goes they fail completely.

Does "everything" include the crank sensor?

Jumping on the thread. Are the standard fiber gears any good? The ones $30-40 on rockauto or should I go with the almost $200 aluminium timing set?

EDIT: Or maybe the fierostore aluminium one for $70?

[This message has been edited by cebix (edited 05-31-2014).]

I used the Fiero Store aluminum set when I rebuilt my duke. But it had 200,000 miles on it when I rebuilt it, so the fiber gear lasted that long.

quote Originally posted by TopNotch: Does "everything" include the crank sensor?

Yes sir, twice in fact. was told just because it's new doesn't mean it's good so I got another one along with;
ICM, both coils, wires & plugs, fuel pump, fuel pump relay, ECM/ECC + new PROM (from from Phonedawgz) Then rebuilt the TB with new injector, IAC, new MAP, MAT, CTS, CIA,CSI,FBI....and just about everything else. the only thing I haven't changed is the oil pressure switch and a few other minor sending units. I know the oil one is bad because the gauge is pegged but this will not keep it from running.

quote Originally posted by TopNotch: I used the Fiero Store aluminum set when I rebuilt my duke. But it had 200,000 miles on it when I rebuilt it, so the fiber gear lasted that long.

I found this last September in Philly, it's got 21550 on the clock, was told a bad fuel pump parked it forever ago but obviously its something else. When I crank it the rockers move so the timing gear hasn't failed 100% but to me....it sounds like the timing is off. I need to make a decision here and either shell out the cash and bring it to a shop or just unload it. It pisses me off because this will be the first car and the first issue I could not fix. Not so much the money, more admitting defeat

If your oil sender has a 3 wire hook up that will keep it from running. That's the switch that keeps the fuel pump running.

I assume you have checked fuel pressure and also that the pump isn't wired backwards and just pumping fuel back into the tank. Hope you find the problem I know you have been looking for awhile. Is there a different set of eyes that know cars that could look at it, I know sometimes when I have been working on something forever it helps me to have someone else look.

quote Originally posted by Csjag: I assume you have checked fuel pressure and also that the pump isn't wired backwards and just pumping fuel back into the tank.

yup, it's 10psi. When I replaced the injector I clicked the key for a second while it was out and a lot of gas came blasting out. the return line is clear as well.

quote Originally posted by Csjag: Is there a different set of eyes that know cars that could look at it, I know sometimes when I have been working on something forever it helps me to have someone else look.

If I can't figure it out soon I'll probably bring it to Fiero John and let him figure it out. I hate admitting defeat though but sometimes you have to know when to throw in the towel.

Lets go back to basics... You suspect valve timing issues? Did you do a compression test?

quote Originally posted by Purple86GT: Lets go back to basics... You suspect valve timing issues? Did you do a compression test?

Yes, one of the first things I did before I went nuts changing parts. I don't remember what it was (should have written it down) but they were all the same and what the service manual said they should be.

Then you can rule out the timing gear.

Next is fuel...

It's a 2.5 TBI right? You can see the injector firing with the air cleaner off. Does it have a nice even spray pattern?

10 pounds ?! isn't it supposed to be like 30 pounds ?

Do you have an ALDL cable/scanner? Can you read the computer data while the engine is "running"? Vacuum leaks? Like huge vacuum leaks? Any codes stored?

[This message has been edited by cebix (edited 06-01-2014).]

quote Originally posted by Lou6t4gto: 10 pounds ?! isn't it supposed to be like 30 pounds ?

Nope, it's supposed to be between 9 and 13 psi

quote Originally posted by cebix: Do you have an ALDL cable/scanner? Can you read the computer data while the engine is "running"? Vacuum leaks? Like huge vacuum leaks? Any codes stored?

I do not. One of the many parts I've replaced was the ECC because the PO replaced it with the wrong one, well it was the right ECC but had the wrong PROM in it. I think that is what's wrong with her, I'm not necessarily trying to find something that's broken but something they tried to fix and F'd up. It took me months to figure out the ECC had the wrong PROM in it, and I assume that there's 1 more "fix" I haven't found yet. The kid I got it from got it from his buddy who got it from the original owner ( old lady who only drove it to church on sunny days yada yada) and between the 2 of them they did some real hack work. I think 1 of them came on here and read the CAT could be plugged up so they cut the S out of a perfectly good exhaust system and now it's a bunch of clamps, adapters and a new(?) CAT. They were not mechanically inclined so who knows what they did.

As far as codes, with a new ECC and not being able to run for more than a few seconds I doubt that there are any codes yet and it sounds so "off" that I don't want to keep it running for too long.

[This message has been edited by DLCLK87GT (edited 06-01-2014).]

Have you checked the connections at the main terminal to see if the PO messed with it and checked to see that the distributor is in properly and not 180 degrees off?

quote Originally posted by Csjag: Have you checked the connections at the main terminal to see if the PO messed with it and checked to see that the distributor is in properly and not 180 degrees off?

yes I did and the connection is fine as far as I can tell. It's an 88 2.5 so there is no distributor.

I think it would be worth the effort to get an aldi cable and download one of the free aldi programs so that you can get a clue as to what the engine is doing when it you are able to get it to run sporadically.

quote Originally posted by Csjag: I think it would be worth the effort to get an aldi cable and download one of the free aldi programs so that you can get a clue as to what the engine is doing when it you are able to get it to run sporadically.

I'll look into that, thanks. I assume somebody here sells what I need.....but am unsure if it's ben run long enough to generate any useful information

quote Originally posted by Csjag: I read that the 88 has a PIM under each coil pack were those changed too?

Not sure what you're referring to. The coils (2) are attached directly to the front of the Ignition Control Module and on the back side of the ICM is the Crankshaft Positioning Sensor. This whole thing is bolted to the block and commonly referred to as the "Brick". It's all brand new.

[This message has been edited by DLCLK87GT (edited 06-01-2014).]

I saw the information on the "PIM" on the Ocean Moon website, it said there was one under each coil pack that fires the coil, maybe it came with the coil packs you replaced, Do you have a shop manual that shows them?

Look at the OGRES page on the DIS ignition. Did you transfer the PIM shield over to the new coil packs that you put in?

quote Originally posted by Csjag: Look at the OGRES page on the DIS ignition. Did you transfer the PIM shield over to the new coil packs that you put in?

Yes i did and coated it in heat paste too.

quote Originally posted by Csjag: I assume you have checked fuel pressure and also that the pump isn't wired backwards.

if the pump is wired backwards would i get any pressure at the filter? I thought the 9-10psi was low but it is within the 9-13 that it should have. Being the fuel system is a loop, if the pump is running backwards would it suck from the return enough to get fuel to the injector and let it semi-start?

Edit to add; i know the return is under/in the fuel because i blew into the line and heard bubbles in the tank.

[This message has been edited by DLCLK87GT (edited 06-04-2014).]

I mentioned the wired backwards thing because I did that when I replaced the fuel pump on my 2M4. I didn't check the fuel pressure but it acted pretty much like your car. The replacement pumps positive and negative terminals were in a different place on the bosch pump I put in so that's why I got it reversed.

quote Originally posted by Csjag: I mentioned the wired backwards thing because I did that when I replaced the fuel pump on my 2M4. I didn't check the fuel pressure but it acted pretty much like your car. The replacement pumps positive and negative terminals were in a different place on the bosch pump I put in so that's why I got it reversed.

I was thinking about it last night, the pump was a "direct replacement" but i also got it off eBay so who knows. I guess i need to pull a line off and check the direction of flow. Did you get fuel to your injector when yours was backwards?

I only got a small amount of fuel at the injector. I would buy a Bosch rotary pump from Rock auto and put it in, I put one in both my cars and they both work great. 10 lbs of pressure is at the lowest end of the scale so the pump may not be working properly.

I'm getting plenty of fuel but will check just to rule it out. I'm wondering if the PO had messed with the TB somehow, possibly rebuilt it and put it back together wrong. Then, when I rebuilt it I put it back together how it came apart, possibly the wrong way???? I guess need to find a new TB.

Does it have the fuel pressure regulator in it like my 85, if so did you rebuild it too?

quote Originally posted by Csjag: Does it have the fuel pressure regulator in it like my 85, if so did you rebuild it too?

Yes it does and yes I did. wasn't much to it, a spring and rubber flapper thing. Again i just put the new parts back how i found the old so ???

[This message has been edited by DLCLK87GT (edited 06-05-2014).]

Could be the fiber ring that has the fiber teeth on it has slipped on the metal core that is pressed on the cam. Larry

I am scratching my head trying to figure out what to suggest: Try this: On a dark night have someone else start the car and get it to run as best you can by working the throttle and look at the engine and see if you see any electrical arcing anywhere.

quote Originally posted by trotterlg: Could be the fiber ring that has the fiber teeth on it has slipped on the metal core that is pressed on the cam. Larry

I was thinking the same thing but was told it doesn't happen. It's either good or bad. I haven't had anyone actually say "yes, it happened to me" so i guess that's a good thing. Wish i could put a timing light on it but i don't think it even has marks.

I will try to look for engine lightning tonight.

I've had two fiber cam gears fail, they both failed as I was driving and they both had several teeth sheared off. I've seen a couple of other Dukes in other cars with the same condition, never saw the fiber just slip on the metal hub and those two also failed while driving. I also replaced one set with the fiber gear and it lasted about 2 years. I think it may have been NOS and maybe they deteriorate over time just sitting on the shelf. Melling makes an aluminum set for around $50.

quote Originally posted by DLCLK87GT: I was thinking the same thing but was told it doesn't happen. It's either good or bad. I haven't had anyone actually say "yes, it happened to me" so i guess that's a good thing. Wish i could put a timing light on it but i don't think it even has marks. I will try to look for engine lightning tonight.

Can a Duke jump a timing gear tooth?
No.
will destroy fiber Gear and then cam won't move. If rocker arms move them gear set is good.

should I go with the almost $200 aluminium timing set?
No. You think Duke have noise issues? This can/will make that worse.

Cloyes Al gear set made for older distributor engines. Fiber gear would break if distributor or oil pump have issues/problems.
88 runs oil pump from crank and uses DIS.

Note Cloyes Al gear set is no long made. Many places don't have it anymore.

quote Originally posted by trotterlg: Could be the fiber ring that has the fiber teeth on it has slipped on the metal core that is pressed on the cam. Larry

No.
Both gears have keys. Fiber gear would break teeth before cutting a key.

Wrong idle stop settings can/will set codes and can make engine hard to start.
So can big vac leaks, like dead brake booster, vac line to it, Bad EGR valve, etc.

Dieing ECM can cause many problems.

See cave, engine section and maybe ECM Heat

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

quote Originally posted by theogre: Can a Duke jump a timing gear tooth? No. will destroy fiber Gear and then cam won't move. If rocker arms move them gear set is good. should I go with the almost $200 aluminium timing set? No. You think Duke have noise issues? This can/will make that worse. Cloyes Al gear set made for older distributor engines. Fiber gear would break if distributor or oil pump have issues/problems. 88 runs oil pump from crank and uses DIS. Note Cloyes Al gear set is no long made. Many places don't have it anymore. No. Both gears have keys. Fiber gear would break teeth before cutting a key.

I bought a Melling set, aluminum cam gear, steel crank gear...Summitt has them for $49. As for the noise, it's not that much louder, the Duke isn't exactly quiet to begin with but it does have a noticeable whine but it's not unbearable. If you replace the gears, you should drill a 1/16" hole in the oil gallery plug that is behind the cam gear to aid in oiling. This was part of a GM TSB.

quote Originally posted by theogre: Wrong idle stop settings can/will set codes and can make engine hard to start.

How can this be checked?

quote Originally posted by theogre: So can big vac leaks, like dead brake booster, vac line to it, Bad EGR valve, etc. Dieing ECM can cause many problems. See cave, engine section and maybe ECM Heat

Never checked the vac line to the brake booster, assume i can just block it off?
EGR is original but i believe it's good. I can move the cone up and down and feel air coming out.
ECM is brand new
Again, only way it will run is if i have somebody start it while i manually operate the throttle to crak open the blade letting in a little air.

[This message has been edited by DLCLK87GT (edited 06-06-2014).]

quote Originally posted by theogre: should I go with the almost $200 aluminium timing set? No. You think Duke have noise issues? This can/will make that worse.

Quoted for truth!

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: What are your compression test numbers?

Don't remember, did that last fall and it was what the manual said it should be i believe but will do it again just for S&G

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: What is your fuel pressure when "holding the tbi open slightly and getting it to run crappy"

Don't know, only checked it at the filter with key on. Went to 10psi. I can try to see what happens assuming i can get it to sputter for a minute or so

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: What ECM do you have? What is the 4 digit code on the PROM, and do you have the PROM installed backwards?

I got a new ECM from the autoparts store and a new PROM from Phonedowgz and yes i believe it's in correctly according to the notch on it...unless he burned it backwards but i doubt that.

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: Do you have spark on all 4 holes? Are you sure you have the correct plug wires on the correct coil pack?

Yes i do and yes i'm sure.

[This message has been edited by DLCLK87GT (edited 06-06-2014).]