Happy Memorial day to the fiero community, be sure to thank a vet while your out driving around
I have done a lot of research on the 3.4 (93-95 firebirds/cameros engine) this swap seems very easy, and the cost is user friendly. I have read that there are after market parts for turbo charging and super charging this engine.
I keep debating on doing a 3.8SC swap or the 3.4PR swap. Obviously either one is going to make a difference but how significant? I've read that the 3.8 is very reliable, bolts right up, but can chew away the 5 speed Getrag or the 4 speed muncie (which is what I have) if your dumping the clutch or speed shifting.
To me, I enjoy being able to dump the clutch even in my 2.8, especially in my 4 speed.
My problems debating between the two is: 1. 3.4 not delivering enough power for me to truly enjoy. 2. 3.8SC being very expensive and destroying my transmission.
Anyone out there have experience with both swaps? If so, is the 3.8SC swap a BIG difference considering Gas Milage and racing from light to light in the city? Im not someone that is looking to go to the drag strip every weekend (personally I enjoy circuit racing more.)
Im mainly looking for something that will be effective when I go to race a mustang or even some ricers at a light.
Another engine to consider would be the 3.4 TDC (DOHC) from the early to mid 90's Lumina Z34. Set up correctly, they seem to be a potent engine when matched to either the 4 or 5 speed. I may have one for sale sometime in the near future and I happen to be close to your location.
Clutch dumps will eventually destroy any transmission regardless of what engine.
I think you've created a dilemma for yourself: get a 3.4 that won't break your gearbox but won't produce a lot of power, or get a 3800 that will produce lots of power and break the gearbox.
The obvious answer is to get a better gearbox, and mate a 3800 to it. The Getrag F23 should do the trick.
Originally posted by Blacktree: The obvious answer is to get a better gearbox, and mate a 3800 to it. The Getrag F23 should do the trick.
I haven't looked into that much but the least amount of money I spend, the better. I have heard people saying that the 4 speed muncie from 85-86 WAS the strongest trans the fiero came with stock. I have also heard people bolting it to a 3.8SC and it being no big problem (I think with a stage 3 clutch?)
With the right cam, a 3.4 makes plenty of power for the street. Unless you're interested in running the 1/4 mile, the 3.4 is great.
Do a search for the DAWG intake neck mod, port the stock manifolds and remove the restriction from the Y pipe and get the H272 cam. You can also do some head work and gasket matching. Also, if you are going to refresh the heads, get the valves with 8mm valve stems for increased airflow. The are from an 87-89 2.8 aluminum head Chevy motor.
A H272 cam and appropriate mods on a 3.4 can and has put down 200rwhp. A stock 2.8 new is 115rwhp. That's almost double your 2.8. If you plan on turbo'ing later then don't get the H272, just get a cam made for a turbo. Engle Cams sells a turbo-spec cam for 2.8/3.1/3.4 engines.
I ran a 3.2 GM V6 engine , turboed to way more than the stock 3800SC engine for many years and the transaxle never complained. OTOH, I'm not a drag racer. An inept driver that sidesteps the clutch routinely can frag a gearbox in pretty short order. BTW, I ran a Centerforce Dual Friction clutch (ceramic buttons on one side).
Having done BOTH, if I had to do it Again (and I may), I would go with the built 3.4 pushrod motor again ! ALOT LESS" COSTLY", and a lot less WORK. Don't get me wrong, I love the 3800SC, but "if I knew then what I know now...." LOL
Just out of curiosity have you considered a 3400/3500 (Aluminum heads)? It's kind of in the middle between both of those engine choices you are considering.
Having done BOTH, if I had to do it Again (and I may), I would go with the built 3.4 pushrod motor again ! ALOT LESS" COSTLY", and a lot less WORK. Don't get me wrong, I love the 3800SC, but "if I knew then what I know now...." LOL
Thank you for your input. I love the stock look that can be done with the 3.4. For people that have no idea what a fiero is, it definitely grabs there attention.
Just out of curiosity have you considered a 3400/3500 (Aluminum heads)? It's kind of in the middle between both of those engine choices you are considering.
Yes! I have nothing but great things about this engines power/mileage ratio. The problem with this engine is that the money it takes to do the swap. People usually say to just go for the 3800 if you want power more so than originality.
... the stock look that can be done with the 3.4. For people that have no idea what a fiero is, it definitely grabs there attention.
I'd start hanging out with a different crowd of people then .
I'll also add that SEARCH is your friend - there is more info on engine swaps in this forum than anyone would probably care to read.
I've had both swaps and can give you a first-hand take on this (for what it's worth). The 3.4 is a great swap if you need to comply with smog requirements and/or you need to keep your costs down. You'll get about 40 hp and this is a nice, peppy, seat-of-the-pants upgrade. Gas mileage and emissions should not be much different than the stock 2.8. BUT you'll still have the same problems GM designed into the 2.8 - it runs hot, friggin' pick-up coil and module, cooked parts. Don't try to get much more than 200 hp or you'll spend a LOT of money doing it.
The 3800SC is really no comparison. It changes the character of the car. The power, throttle response and drive-ability is wonderful. In my experience, the gas mileage is a little less around town but much better on the highway with the 3800SC (but i have a 4 speed auto). It runs cool, easy to maintain, and OBD-2 is much better than OBD-1. And a nicely done supercharger will grab people's attention too.
If you want to go one step further, go V8. i also have a v8 car. Low end torque will stop your habit for jump starts and speed shifts - you'll be sitting in the street with a blown clutch or broken axles. Gas mileage is slightly less than 3.4 around town and slightly more on the highway but not as good as the 3800SC. Easy to maintain and a tremendous fun to drive. You'll get more attention and conversation than you'll want when people see a nicely done v8.
These 3 are the most popular swaps - lots of people have them and there will be plenty of quick answers to your questions. You really can't go wrong with any of them. You can easily double your stock HP with the 3800SC and v8, ease your maintenance costs, and get the same or better gas mileage. If you do the 3.4, don't do anything else to it and save your money - you'll need it for the 3800SC or v8 you'll be doing later (when you get a taste of more power, you can't let go ).
[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 05-28-2014).]
I have heard people saying that the 4 speed muncie from 85-86 WAS the strongest trans the fiero came with stock. I have also heard people bolting it to a 3.8SC and it being no big problem (I think with a stage 3 clutch?)
Most of the posts i've read over the years say this is true. But, for a daily driver, most people sooner or later want the 5 speed for highway use and gas mileage.
[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 05-28-2014).]
That engine has problem with head gaskets, much like the 4.6 Northstar DOHC.
That engine can produce good HP but reliability is a concern, This is my daily driver.
Those two engines have literally nothing to do with each other.
The weakness of the 3.4 DOHC is not the head gaskets, and even with it's supposed shortcomings, it is not an inherently unreliable engine... just like the Fiero isn't designed to overheat.
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 05-28-2014).]
Thank you PaulJK for the info. I actually have a 1991 seville with a 4.9L V8 in it but the engines got 194,000 so If I were to swap that in, I'd want to rebuild it.
Getting 200HP in a 3.4 seems pretty much perfect. Im using my fiero as a daily driver (until I do the swap) and want more HP and Torque but not all of the complicated and expensive materials so I think a 3.4 should do the job for now.
Originally posted by PaulJK: If you do the 3.4, don't do anything else to it and save your money - you'll need it for the 3800SC or v8 you'll be doing later (when you get a taste of more power, you can't let go ).
Haha, your probably right. One day a 3800SC will definitely be in my fiero.
The weakness of the 3.4 DOHC is not the head gaskets, and even with it's supposed shortcomings, it is not an inherently unreliable engine... just like the Fiero isn't designed to overheat.
Someone on the forums kinda explained it that DOHC means the gaskets blow after about 100,000 miles.
On the other hand,
I wanted to make a new post for this but my fiero is acting a little weird.
The temp on it sometimes goes way past 220 degrees. Isn't that bad for an engine considering water boils around 212 degrees?
I would upload a picture but im still trying to get use to the site and can't seem to upload a picture from my computer.
Thank you PaulJK for the info. I actually have a 1991 seville with a 4.9L V8 in it but the engines got 194,000 so If I were to swap that in, I'd want to rebuild it.
Getting 200HP in a 3.4 seems pretty much perfect. Im using my fiero as a daily driver (until I do the swap) and want more HP and Torque but not all of the complicated and expensive materials so I think a 3.4 should do the job for now.
You're welcome . here's what i did to mine to get what i estimated was 180 or a little more hp):
3.4 ATK (reman long block) engine (3 yr, unlimited mileage warranty) ported and polished, gasket matched intakes ported and gasket matched exhaust manifolds enlarged throttle body K&N hi-flow air filter Accel injectors
I was tempted to go with headers but was afraid of losing low end torque to gain higher rpm horsepower. so i just worked with the stock exhaust manifolds - it was fine. there was a guy named George Miller at the Fiero Shop near san francisco that did the work. Personally i liked him but others unfortunately had bad experiences. Before it was all over, i had about $5000 in the project (also put in a 5 speed getrag). That's why I said be careful and save your money for a better engine swap .
[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 05-29-2014).]
The temp on it sometimes goes way past 220 degrees. Isn't that bad for an engine considering water boils around 212 degrees?
The 2.8 / 3.4 was designed to run hot. The radiator fan doesn't normally come on until 235 degrees. You're right that water boils at 212 F but a 50/50 mix of water and antifreeze will not boil until about 260 F. You can add more antifreeze and less water (70% / 30 % mix) if you want to supress boiling until even higher. You can also add RedLine Water Wetter (or similar) that will lower temps and also lubricate your water pump.
PS. My 3800SC normally runs around 185 F; probably not the best for engine efficiency but I'm not gonna overheat anything either .
[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 05-29-2014).]
PaulJK mentioned antifreeze as a means of controlling the boiling point. There is another. The cooling system in 99%+ of vehicles is a pressurized system. As the system heats up it builds pressure inside. Pressure also increases the boiling point of liquids. Use of anti-freeze combined with pressurizing the system is very effective at preventing overheating as long as the rest of the system operates as it should. Anti-freeze also helps prevent rust and it lubricates the water pump bearings and seals. Never use straight water as it promotes rust and doesn't properly lubricate bearings and seals.
Someone on the forums kinda explained it that DOHC means the gaskets blow after about 100,000 miles.
On the other hand,
I wanted to make a new post for this but my fiero is acting a little weird.
The temp on it sometimes goes way past 220 degrees. Isn't that bad for an engine considering water boils around 212 degrees?
I would upload a picture but im still trying to get use to the site and can't seem to upload a picture from my computer.
Your gauge could be off. However, on the Fiero, the gauge comes from the temperature of the head and not the coolant. Typically my gauge reads 160f but my coolant is at 195f. Newer cars run at about 210f - my Corvette did. On newer cars, the coolant temp is what is displayed. The Fiero has a coolant light for when it's overheating. If that doesn't come on, you are probably ok. I'd still look into it. If you have an ALDL cable, you can get a coolant reading using a program like TunerPro to see what you're coolant temp sensor is actually reading. My 4.9 also ran at about 205-225 degrees coolant temps...
Your gauge could be off. However, on the Fiero, the gauge comes from the temperature of the head and not the coolant. Typically my gauge reads 160f but my coolant is at 195f. Newer cars run at about 210f - my Corvette did. On newer cars, the coolant temp is what is displayed. The Fiero has a coolant light for when it's overheating. If that doesn't come on, you are probably ok. I'd still look into it. If you have an ALDL cable, you can get a coolant reading using a program like TunerPro to see what you're coolant temp sensor is actually reading. My 4.9 also ran at about 205-225 degrees coolant temps...
The 2.8 / 3.4 was designed to run hot. The radiator fan doesn't normally come on until 235 degrees. You're right that water boils at 212 F but a 50/50 mix of water and antifreeze will not boil until about 260 F.
PS. My 3800SC normally runs around 185 F; probably not the best for engine efficiency but I'm not gonna overheat anything either .
See I knew you guys would be able to explain this properly! I think my thermostat was replaced with a 190F so that could be part of it.
I'd love to be able to see what a 3800SC fiero is like. I've seen video's but being in the car would be a great experience.
With the right cam, a 3.4 makes plenty of power for the street. Unless you're interested in running the 1/4 mile, the 3.4 is great.
Do a search for the DAWG intake neck mod, port the stock manifolds and remove the restriction from the Y pipe and get the H272 cam. You can also do some head work and gasket matching. Also, if you are going to refresh the heads, get the valves with 8mm valve stems for increased airflow. The are from an 87-89 2.8 aluminum head Chevy motor.
A H272 cam and appropriate mods on a 3.4 can and has put down 200rwhp. A stock 2.8 new is 115rwhp. That's almost double your 2.8. If you plan on turbo'ing later then don't get the H272, just get a cam made for a turbo. Engle Cams sells a turbo-spec cam for 2.8/3.1/3.4 engines.
DO LOOK INTO ENGLE CAMS. I have one in my norm asp highly modified 2.8 and it great, pulls like all hell to 6k +. And I've yet to dyno-tune or burn a chip for it. They're very helpful people and have a lots of profiles.
I have: Weekend warrior, Strong mid range 60° 21646H IN .489” 277° .326” 230° 110° torque, Rough idle 90° 21946H
You're welcome . here's what i did to mine to get what i estimated was 180 or a little more hp):
3.4 ATK (reman long block) engine (3 yr, unlimited mileage warranty) ported and polished, gasket matched intakes ported and gasket matched exhaust manifolds enlarged throttle body K&N hi-flow air filter Accel injectors
I was tempted to go with headers but was afraid of losing low end torque to gain higher rpm horsepower. so i just worked with the stock exhaust manifolds - it was fine. there was a guy named George Miller at the Fiero Shop near san francisco that did the work. Personally i liked him but others unfortunately had bad experiences. Before it was all over, i had about $5000 in the project (also put in a 5 speed getrag). That's why I said be careful and save your money for a better engine swap .
Just a lil FYI: a bigger TB on the stock intake not cost effective whereas you still have that very restrictive intake manifold. A K&N filter, unless placed outside if the engine compartment in cooler air will negate power not gain you any. Modi/removing the water seporator is the way to go. Bigger injectors on norm asp with stock intakes are a waste of money. At WOP these engines run too rich as is - no air input. Porting the stock headers will help a bit , but real headers are the way to go and will not kill your bottom end at all. Basially if you want more than 200 HP from a 2.8 or 3.4 you just need a better intake and headers. Above info is from lots of R&D dyno time.
You're welcome . here's what i did to mine to get what i estimated was 180 or a little more hp):
3.4 ATK (reman long block) engine (3 yr, unlimited mileage warranty) ported and polished, gasket matched intakes ported and gasket matched exhaust manifolds enlarged throttle body K&N hi-flow air filter Accel injectors
I was tempted to go with headers but was afraid of losing low end torque to gain higher rpm horsepower. so i just worked with the stock exhaust manifolds - it was fine. there was a guy named George Miller at the Fiero Shop near san francisco that did the work. Personally i liked him but others unfortunately had bad experiences. Before it was all over, i had about $5000 in the project (also put in a 5 speed getrag). That's why I said be careful and save your money for a better engine swap .
Were you running a stock cam and still getting 180 HP with this engine? What size Accell injectors did you use? Any other mods done to your 3.4?
.
. here's what i did to mine to get what i estimated was 180 or a little more hp):
[IMG]http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b50/francis4
