I certainly appreciate the ingenuity, creativity and engineering ability of the folks on this forum but find it puzzling why we see so much work and discussion being devoted to manual transmissions that today is a dying technology. No insult intended but outside of a few trucks the vast majority of automotive brands no longer offer manuals. You can't even have one on in a Corvette. I use to be a stick man but that was before technology took over and automatic transmissions shifted faster, included more speeds and slippage was eliminated. While the intention is to not start a debate; my curiosity about the stick and its fading longevity is something that might make for good discussion, When all the 5 and 6 speeds in junkyards have been scrapped in a few years then where do we go?
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I certainly appreciate the ingenuity, creativity and engineering ability of the folks on this forum but find it puzzling why we see so much work and discussion being devoted to manual transmissions that today is a dying technology. No insult intended but outside of a few trucks the vast majority of automotive brands no longer offer manuals. You can't even have one on in a Corvette. I use to be a stick man but that was before technology took over and automatic transmissions shifted faster, included more speeds and slippage was eliminated. While the intention is to not start a debate; my curiosity about the stick and its fading longevity is something that might make for good discussion, When all the 5 and 6 speeds in junkyards have been scrapped in a few years then where do we go?
I was thinking about this the other day too. A lot of parts have been reproduced after the fact by new start-up Chinese, Taiwanese, and other companies. If there's even remotely enough demand for a simple run, I suspect they'll remake some of the more important parts. For example... I was able to buy replacement injectors for my 84 Corvette from some Chinese company (earlier in the year) when no one else was making them, except rebuilding them. It was some company that's really big in the aftermarket now that has a red and black box... I can't remember the name.
But for those purists, you can also remake things, and I think to an extent, you'll probably see a lot more CNC work being done for things like synchros and stuff which you can't really get anymore. All that said, it seems that automatic to manual swaps are more common, so there are more manual Fieros out there probably than there are automatic Fieros now (still on the road).
As for the why... I know that a 4T60 can be a great swap in a Fiero... but for me, having a stick shift in it embodies everything that makes a car fun to drive. One of the biggest issues people have with modern cars today, is that with the pervasiveness of CARB and CAFE standards... you barely hear and feel cars today. Even comparing my 1984 Corvette to my neighbor's 1989 Corvette... both of them are the exact same color, and even look the same. But I was letting my car idle last weekend, and my neighbor said... "How come your Corvette sounds so much nicer than mine?"
... we both have stock exhaust systems, but at some point between 1984 and 1989, they implemented new rules for how much sound an engine or exhaust could make. When you even listen to the sound of my daughter's 1985 Fiero 2m4 SE 5-Speed... it has the stock exhaust, the completely stock intake (air cleaner, water separator ducting, ThermAC, etc... all installed). The only difference is an aftermarket catalytic converter. And her exhaust sounds louder too. But of course, we're talking about manuals... all these things add up to what made cars fun to drive back then. I could get into a 2-door Honda Civic that would be way faster and handle better than my Fiero... but it doesn't feel exciting at all. Becuase in the Fiero... or an older car, you're really using all of your senses...
This is a good video that really explains what I mean:
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: I use to be a stick man but that was before technology took over and automatic transmissions shifted faster, included more speeds and slippage was eliminated. While the intention is to not start a debate; my curiosity about the stick and its fading longevity is something that might make for good discussion, When all the 5 and 6 speeds in junkyards have been scrapped in a few years then where do we go?
To me, it's kind of a "if I have to explain it you won't understand" kinda thing. Operating a manual transmission car feels like operating a machine. There is a visceral mechanical connection. Either you get it, or you don't.
Regarding the future for manual shift fans, we'll all have to drift toward vintage cars. They will always be available as long as they are prized. You will always be able to get your Porsche or Corvette fixed. The less loved cars -- and Fieros might be in that category -- might fade away but you will always be able to get something.
Old people complain now that "kids" don't know how to drive manual shift cars. My observation is that a lot of "kids" don't even know what a manual shift car is!
For me, nothing beats driving a manual transmission car. It makes you feel more connected with the car and road. I have a manual in both my Fiero and my daily driver. My daily is a Jeep Wrangler mainly because you can still buy them in a manual.
It is not just about the manual transmission, but it is about manual operation in general. Crank windows, hydraulic or manual steering, non-ABS brakes, cable throttle, etc.
When it is no longer feasible to daily drive a more "analog" car, then commuting will become miserable.
I might be able to get my "analog" fix via other toys, maybe a motorcycle, ATV, snowmobile, etc.
In my world a proper automobile has 2 doors and 3 pedals.
The Manual Gearbox Preservation Society
We are the guardians of a dying art. The purveyors of a craft born of necessity, but beloved for its spirit. We travel with purpose regardless of our destination. Every corner an opportunity for the perfect downshift, every stop a new starting line. We find joy in those fleeting moments between ratios; the crescendo of rpm, the gentle click of the gate, the building inertia in our chest as the drivetrain becomes whole again. We are the masters of our machines. We are The Manual Gearbox Preservation Society!
Most of my DDs have been 2 door manuals, they have all been since 1995. Even in heavy traffic I don't mind the clutch and shifting. I travel with purpose regardless of my destination.
No doubt there are many forum members here that enjoy the stick especially for road racing. . I recall years back getting stuck in stop and go traffic for 2 hours with my Jeep 5 speed stick and let me tell you that experience gave me a sore leg. Today my wife drives a Jeep Gladiator with a 9 speed ZF automatic. Its certainly fine to enjoy driving a Fiero with a manual transmission. Those Fieros with the the 5 speeds are more popular that those with the TH125H slushbox. The TH125H might be simple but doesn't give a good driving experience.. No matter how we spin things manual transmissions are still almost a thing of the past. When the scrap yards are empty in a few years that may be the end of it all. Repair parts may still be available but I know a few guys that snapped their Getrag case in half . Today automatics can be had in 6 and even 9 speed versions. If a do another swap I would try that with the 6T40 transmission. The 6T series is available with the GM FWD bell housing. The modern day automatic transmissions suit may needs very well but I guess there are always going to be the die hard manual guys.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I had never driven a stick when I ordered my Fiero SE V6 in 1985...with a manual transmission....Gutsiest thing I ever did....Blew my father's mind...He had been driving sports cars before I came along and ruined his life (Check out Jowett Jupiter- Flat-4...With radiator BEHIND the engine...Won at Le Mans 3 years in a row (In 1.5 L class)
No one has brought up automatic transmission repair costs...
The cost, the worse efficiency (even just slightly), the life, and the biggest thing is that manuals are not dying, only in North America is that happening, Europe for the most part still prefers manual, third world countries get a mix from richer countries, and don't specifically have a preference, only in North America, where automatics have been hyped and pushed as luxury and better are they taking over. The less control people have over their car, the worse they are at controlling it when it matters most, so you'll get people relying on their auto parallel parking, blind spot monitoring, Lane keeping, adaptive cruise control, and then when something breaks, or they get into a bad situation, all they can do is hang on and go for the ride. People who drive their cars, and are engaged in every aspect at all times will have control to start with, and will maintain that control as best as possible through whatever they may face, instead of the car having the control, then when it gets too hard for it, it dumps that situation in your lap and you aren't prepared for it. Each transmission has its pros and cons, neither one is technically "better"than the other, they are to different to make that choice, it's down to personal preference, budget, and a few other things. I like in Europe where they you have to take your driving test with a manual car for a full unrestricted license, train for the "worst" (hardest), and then what comes later is easy, train on automatic, and you aren't allowed to touch the "harder" cars until you retrain, it's an extra level to achieve, a valuable skill to possess.
It was funny when I bought my WRX four years ago.... The sales guy said they get a lot of kids who come in and they want to test-drive just because they want to learn to drive a manual, and he has to kind of weed them out so they don't damage the cars. So he kind of sheepishly asked me if I knew how to drive it. It was funny because I might be old enough to be his dad.
A good manual is enjoyable to drive.... Every Honda manual I have driven, for example, has been great. But on the other hand, I had an S-10 pickup 5-speed for a couple years, and I hated it. Being stuck in traffic would drive me to road rage. My WRX is somewhere in-between. It's better than the S-10 but not as precise as a Honda.
My wife and I both prefer manuals. We also each drive a Wrangler, as our daily, and have the "Manual Gearbox Preservation Society" license plate frames on our vehicles. We had to have her Rubicon shipped from California, because there were no red, manual Rubicons anywhere near us. (Side note... even with shipping, we still saved money over the local dealers.) I have a 5 speed in my 4.9 car. The gearing is absolutely wrong for the tractor torque of the engine, but it's still a blast to drive. It was so boring with the automatic that I almost sold it.
Yeah... you get to feel what the vehicle is doing. You don't get that with the automatics. Even the good ones. Although the 8 speed CDJR automatic transmission is very good.
But I suspect the reason that more cars are not offered with manuals is because each individual drivetrain must undergo its own certification for CARB, and all the other goobermental silliness. With a little bit of luck, that will change, shortly. (See my - and a few others' - recent P&R posts.)
Dennis, you're on a sports car forum. I don't know why you always seem to want to choose this hill to die on. Why do we do manuals? Because that's what we want. Even if we have to seek them out, piece them together in some cases, and make them work in our applications. Stay the course, manual fans.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-09-2025).]
In Europe, I'd say at least 80% of all cars are manual - maybe even more. Personally, I prefer driving a manual over most modern automatic transmissions. Why? Because it gives me more precise control over when the car shifts gears.
That said, I actually prefer older automatics to manuals. Let me explain. Take my Fiero, for example - it has an automatic transmission, but I can still make it shift exactly when I want it to, whether that’s up or down. I think the ECM has something to do with it, but I’m not entirely sure. What I've noticed is that it's not just the throttle position that determines when it shifts, but also how quickly you move the throttle. So by controlling both the speed and position of the throttle, I can pretty much dictate when it changes gears. Sometimes I just want it to shift down without actually accelerating. I can do that by briefly and quickly throttle up, then throttle down again once it has shifted down. It doesn't accelerate, it just shifts down. And of course, there’s the kickdown option, which drops it down a gear and gives full throttle.
Modern automatics - at least the ones we get here in Europe - seem to rely only on throttle position. That affects acceleration speed, sure, but hardly influences the gear it’s in. It’s strange. I can rapidly modulate the throttle, but the car doesn’t react at all. In my Fiero, doing that would definitely cause a response…
In Europe, I'd say at least 80% of all cars are manual - maybe even more. Personally, I prefer driving a manual over most modern automatic transmissions. Why? Because it gives me more precise control over when the car shifts gears.
That said, I actually prefer older automatics to manuals. Let me explain. Take my Fiero, for example - it has an automatic transmission, but I can still make it shift exactly when I want it to, whether that’s up or down. I think the ECM has something to do with it, but I’m not entirely sure. What I've noticed is that it's not just the throttle position that determines when it shifts, but also how quickly you move the throttle. So by controlling both the speed and position of the throttle, I can pretty much dictate when it changes gears. Sometimes I just want it to shift down without actually accelerating. I can do that by briefly and quickly throttle up, then throttle down again once it has shifted down. It doesn't accelerate, it just shifts down. And of course, there’s the kickdown option, which drops it down a gear and gives full throttle.
Modern automatics - at least the ones we get here in Europe - seem to rely only on throttle position. That affects acceleration speed, sure, but hardly influences the gear it’s in. It’s strange. I can rapidly modulate the throttle, but the car doesn’t react at all. In my Fiero, doing that would definitely cause a response…
I drove manual cars for years, even used a standard gearbox in a drag race car. Back then cars that had the automatic transmissions of the day were way less efficient and had internal slippage. The cars with manual transmissions provided better mileage and performance. There is probably some truth to that today. Over time, the automatic transmissions were improved had lock up converters and up to 9 speeds. The 1/4 mile performance was improved, they were perfect for bracket racing and it was time to switch. I completely understand folks that prefer the manual for the more exciting nostalgic driving experience but here in the USA manuals have been almost phased out. FACT The vast majority of the buyer base doesn't seem to want them. As for new American sports cars going auto just look at the Corvette. Not telling anyone what they should or should not use just about my preference and why.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 05-10-2025).]
Dennis LaGrua: The vast majority of the {American} buyer base doesn't seem to want them.
Americans prefer automatic transmissions over manual ones because they generally like things to be convenient and easy... AND Americans are much more likely to be doing several things at once when they’re driving!!
As someone that currently has both types of Fiero transmissions, I think I am somewhat unbiased.
We need to realize that automatic transmission technology has come a long way in 40 years, whereas manual transmissions are about the same as ever with perhaps a 6th gear thrown in and fully synchronized reverse. What have autos got now? As some have pointed out 9 speeds for superior or at least equivalent gas mileage. Better non-slipping torque converters. Manual shifting of the autos with either paddles or moving the shifter lever without having to use a clutch which is slow and more work.
There are people that still prefer doing everything manually: rolling their windows down because there's fewer parts to break, or manual mirrors, or even manual transmissions. I realize there can be somewhat of a "fun factor" to a manual, but ultimately, I think an automatic with paddle shifters would be even more fun than a clutched manual. Would "manual enthusiasts" still prefer a clutched manual over a "clutchless manual" (which is just an automatic with manual shifting)? I don't think most would, which is why a type of automatic with shifting would be superior. Think about a race course, I would rather have both hands on the wheel especially in a turn paddle shifting, rather than constantly taking one hand off to reach for a floor shifter.
Ultimately a VRT automatic is the ultimate transmission for performance and fuel economy: Being able to stay at the best power RPM for an entire acceleration or at the most efficient RPM for a given speed's gas mileage would give the fastest acceleration. Looking forward to the day when we get a build thread on "VRTing my Fiero".
Maybe I missed it above but I don’t think this particular aspect of transmissions has been brought up (and argued) and that is longevity. I know this conversation could go both ways. I’ll tell you a quick and true story about my friends experience with his 92 Corvette. He used to brag to me that he had well over 300K on his car and that he really took care of it, always drove it carefully & sensibly, did regular oil changes, etc. but…..he also admitted that he just changed out his auto transmission and he was now on number 3. I thought to myself, “What a letdown. Bragging about your great, reliable LT1 when your only at 300K and you’re already on auto transmission number 3”? Kind of a mute point in my opinion.
My point in this story is that for many (but certainly not all) some owners manual cars outlasted their auto cars. IMO, this would be especially true for long distance freeway driving manual cars. Just wanted to throw this into the discussion. Kit
[This message has been edited by Kitskaboodle (edited 05-12-2025).]
everybody these days want a four door pickup with the hood higher than the roof of my car.loaded.i bought a ford aerostar just because it is a five speed.
The new C8 Vette weighs 3700 lbs....even worse, though, is that it's weight distribution is like a 911 porsche- 40-60.....The reason for the butt-heaviness, is due to the twin-clutch transmission....It weighs (Are you sitting down..?) 350 POUNDS!!!
If they would just sell a version of the C8 with a manual trans, they could take 200+ lbs of the azz-end...
Benefit of more equal weight distribution; Car & Drivel magazine does a test of cars at Virginia raceway every year....One year they were testing a 911 Carrera and a Boxster/Cayman....the 911 had a much better Power-to-weight ratio, but after lapping the two cars, they came back with the same lap times...so 3 other drivers took the 911 out and tried to better the lap time- but they could not; While the 47/53% Box-Cay was just willing to do whatever the driver wanted, the (God's greatest!!!!!) 911 Carrera (40/60%) was always trying to KILL the driver (DTO- Snap-oversteer)
I've never owned, say, a Ford Taurus, a Chrysler minivan, a Honda Odyssey or any kind of Nissan with a CVT so I've dodged the bullet on the most problematic transmissions. The various GM THM125 (three of them) and 4T45 transmissions we've had in the extended family have all been flawless, and that includes the 300K + miles I put on the same kind of THM125 like comes in the Fiero (I only retired that car because some kid wrecked it). My dad on the other hand ruined the clutch on a brand-new Honda Accord 5-speed within 40K miles. So I think a lot of the longevity boils down to user competence or abuse. In other words, your mileage may vary.
My WRX will be an interesting one to watch.... Supposedly the regular non-STI 6-speed is an easy one to break, but that most likely comes at the hands of the kids who buy them and beat on them on (or off) the track. I fully expect to get a long life out of mine but that's with me driving normally like an adult.
My WRX will be an interesting one to watch.... Supposedly the regular non-STI 6-speed is an easy one to break, but that most likely comes at the hands of the kids who buy them and beat on them on (or off) the track. I fully expect to get a long life out of mine but that's with me driving normally like an adult.
My '98 JDM Subaru Impreza WRX STi is a 5-spd, and I've heard that these 5-spds are the Subie transmissions that are relatively weak. I believe it's 2nd gear that usually lets go. I'm not surprised, with the power that the top of the line EJ engines put out.
The new C8 Vette weighs 3700 lbs....even worse, though, is that it's weight distribution is like a 911 porsche- 40-60.....The reason for the butt-heaviness, is due to the twin-clutch transmission....It weighs (Are you sitting down..?) 350 POUNDS!!!
If they would just sell a version of the C8 with a manual trans, they could take 200+ lbs of the azz-end...
Benefit of more equal weight distribution; Car & Drivel magazine does a test of cars at Virginia raceway every year....One year they were testing a 911 Carrera and a Boxster/Cayman....the 911 had a much better Power-to-weight ratio, but after lapping the two cars, they came back with the same lap times...so 3 other drivers took the 911 out and tried to better the lap time- but they could not; While the 47/53% Box-Cay was just willing to do whatever the driver wanted, the (God's greatest!!!!!) 911 Carrera (40/60%) was always trying to KILL the driver (DTO- Snap-oversteer)
The Corvette may be more rear bias but being a manual would not change much.
Also keep in mind most of the Corvettes weight is near the center of the car more so than a 911 or many other cars.
Front and rear weight balance is one thing but how close that weight is to the center line of the car is another. When we race we can have a perfect 50/50 balance but if the weight is near the ends of the car we get too much polar movment. If we keep the weigh to the center of the car even in a 40/60 balance it is much better for handing. There is more to it than some statistics. True physics are in play.
The bottom line is emissions and MPG is why we have what we have. Also consumers are more into texting and driving than shifting.
I get it. On a weekend I love rowing gears but in stop and go traffic like I saw on Santa Monic BLVD. I loved the Auto I had in that mess.
Also the advent of cable shifted transmissions including the Fiero are horrible. Is it first or third? Also most FWD cars today are not cheap or easy to replace an they do not hold up like the old transmissions of old
If you have old hurst and Muncie they were easy to deal with. Not like todays cars where you have to drop the engine to get to the clutch in many cases.
My old 911 is fun but it also is a car you have to think when you shift, the 915 box is tough to sift cold and it is notchy even warm. It is old school Euro transmission. Great for weekends but not for daily commutes. Also they need rebuild before many autos need rebuilt. Sycros go..
Originally posted by hyperv6: Also the advent of cable shifted transmissions including the Fiero are horrible. Is it first or third?
There is a big difference in the left-right select feel between Fiero 4-speed and 5-speed transmissions.
With the 5-speed setups, the springing to center when in Neutral is done in the transmission, so you feel the looseness in the linkage.
With the 4-speed setup, the springing is done at the shifter in the cabin, so the select feeling is more direct (though still not the same as a transmission-mounted shifter).
There is a big difference in the left-right select feel between Fiero 4-speed and 5-speed transmissions.
With the 5-speed setups, the springing to center when in Neutral is done in the transmission, so you feel the looseness in the linkage.
With the 4-speed setup, the springing is done at the shifter in the cabin, so the select feeling is more direct (though still not the same as a transmission-mounted shifter).
My point is that it was never good compared to the good transmissions like. A Tremic or even a good Muncie with a good Hurst shifter.
But even some of the great cars had bad shifting shifters. My 911 shifts Likeca old 50’s race car. Cold it his hard to shift. Warm it gets better but you need to know where the gates are. It takes about an hour to get used to it if you never have driven one.
My old Chevelle SS was great. I could just slap the shifter and it just went into gear. No muss no fuss. It was also very adjustable. I staggered the gate to let 2-3 was inline for the motion.
