Just few days ago on July 27, 2021, Ethan Allen (yourfriendethan) passed away while working under his Fiero, just a year after finding one that he has always wanted for more than 20 plus years... to have his life ended when his Fiero somehow fell on him & crushed him underneath. That's a terrible way for one's life to end like that and one of the saddest days on Fiero Forum.
The first thing that comes to mind is SAFETY which isn't always very clear on this forum when it comes to placing floor jack & jack stands underneath the Fiero... when it comes to changing the brakes, control arms, bushings, sway bars or taking the engine out & etc.
We should update that famous map picture of the underneath the Fiero that we all seen from the manual books, with clear words that says "Floor Jack" or "Jack Stand" along with colors to show where it should go. And if possible, get clear pictures from Fiero enthusiasts' projects to show how it was done right.
I found few threads on Jack Stands... which is located in Technical Discussion & Questions area where people don't often visit. Those threads weren't very clear. I've seen pics & videos from YouTube where people made mistakes with their floor jack & jack stands.
So, to honor Ethan Allen, I think we should start this thread in the general area, in hope of getting more attention to address safety issues when it comes to floor jack & jack stands.
To start off, here's that famous map picture from the manual books I was referring to.
I have taken the liberty of adding more words to the map, with "Floor Jack", "Jack Stand" and "Lift" in order to make it clear for general purpose.
For each situation, we can modify the map picture in each post. Hopefully, that will help people to feel confident to do the job without putting their lives at risk just because they are afraid to ask dumb questions.
No question are dumb when it comes to safety & your life. It's always better to ask those dumb questions & do it right so you can live another day & enjoy your Fiero.
[This message has been edited by Fiero Vice (edited 08-01-2021).]
One of the safest way to life your Fiero... by using ramps.
In the past when I was young, I've had a bad experience trying to get my first Fiero onto ramps, I've decided to just lift the Fiero up with floor jack & put the ramps under the tires before lowing it. It's one of the most safe ways to work under the car.
Now, always inspect your ramps for rust if you have metal ones. If any, find the time to sand it down & paint.
As I mentioned earlier about a student from automotive school, this is exactly where he made a mistake by lifting the front end by the edge which is No-No.
See where the orange circles are? That's the correct place to lift a Fiero.
Remember, everyone makes a mistake including me. The most important thing is we all learn from it so it doesn't happen to anyone with good source of safety on lifting.
[This message has been edited by Fiero Vice (edited 08-01-2021).]
This is very sad news. Sadly this is also a reminder of how dangerous it is to work under a car and how easy it is to forget that. Good you started this thread.
Having spent quite some time under my Fiero over the years I realize now I have become more aware and carefull over time too. I used to think "it might not fall this way", nowaday I think "it can not fall this way" and I make sure the car stands save and secure before "rushing" into a job. Fast or safe; choose one.
My recommendation is to have at least one floorjack and two (adjustable) jackstands for any job under the car. Those shouldn't be too expensive to get. For about every job I first jack up the car in the middle of the subframe (front or rear, depending on job), drop and secure the frame on the jackstands left and right of the jack and remove the jack. See the posted picture above for the locations. Make sure you have a solid floorsurface.
Never rely on a floorjack alone. It can roll, move down or flip over and it will do that when the weight of the car wants to move sideways or if the jack (lever) is not well secured. Especially under A-arms where the loadsurface will angle when you jack them. I found the jackstands (when placed right) have become my main confidence when working under the Fiero. The Fiero vehicle jack is for changing a tire, do not use it for other jobs.
Now, about jack stands, I've been searching for the best jack stands for a while.
Since the Harbor Freight recalled their jack stands not only once but twice and now removed all of it off the market, I realized that I shouldn't be relying on my much older HF stands which has no locking pin. I didn't feel safe using it as the main support while I'm under the car.
I will continue to use it as back up or for support, but not as main stands to protect my life.
I liked #2, ESCO 10498 3-Ton Jack Stand very much, which is the design that Europe often use. Plus, it has a locking pin that can not go wrong.
I know it's little expensive, but our lives are worth it. You can always buy two for now & buy two more later on. There are several reviews on YouTube about this stand. I'll post two reviews for you to watch.
This is absolutely terrible news... Safety is paramount when working on cars, and jacking up a Fiero is very unique. May he rest in peace.
Remember to always use jack stands and never put your life solely on a jack. Also remember to check the car to make sure it's solid on those stands before crawling underneath by giving it a good SHAKE.
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
Very sad news...To finally get your dream car and then to.....well, it is just a horrible situation.
A coupe of things about jacks- A) position them properly; The Fiero is kind of a dangerous car because it has a couple of places that "Look like real structure" but in fact are not- in front of the rear wheel wells is the most dangerous- I have seen numerous Fieros at the JYs that have fallen because they position the supports there. I usually (99% of the time) place the jack at the center of the rear subframe crossmember- I actually made a small centering mark because it is deceiving. At the front, I once again usually jack at the center of the subframe crossmember. Jack stands at the rear are usually positioned in the flat spots below the rear mounts, while at the front I usually position them as far out on the front subframe crossmember.
B) I ALWAYS shake the car (Strongly) before crawling under it- I'd rather it fell WITHOUT me under it than while I am under there....
C) When jacking and lowering, remember that the lift arm of your floor jack not only moves up and down but swings so as it reaches the upper limit it is trying to move the car- I have lowered it onto jack stands and had it surge forward (SCARY) I always position blocks in front and back of the ground tires so it can't move, and also position the caster wheels on the jack so they will allow the jack to move in the right direction...Critically, I always CHECK the blocks before my NEXT lift/drop; As you jack it up, it will tend to pull up onto your blocks, so you need to then go and reposition the blocks on the other side of the tires- the Blocks on BOTH sides of the ground tires should always be TIGHT against the tires!
D) When jacking, always try to position the jack fore-&-aft.....Then your tire blocks can control most of the movement. At the front I usually have to position the jack diagonal...which then leads to lateral thrust as you jack and lower- make sure that A) wheels at back are fully blocked, and B) the jack is positioned so it will ROLL which eliminates lateral loading on the car. When you then LOWER the car onto jacks, do not have a long ways to go- lift the car only enough to slip the stands in, then carefully lower the car back down (Only 1/4" if possible)
One of the things that I noticed in his thread was a picture of his car parked in a gravel carport. I'm hoping he didn't have the vehicle jacked up on that loose gravel because that would be another point of danger. Whenever I need to get under ANY vehicle, I only jack up one side at a time, make sure the jackstands are in the proper location, and use 2 floor jacks at the same time in backup locations just in case one of the stands fail. People say it's overkill but I'd rather feel safe.
Very tragic for a new member to pass like this. It just reinforces the need to practice safety in all aspects of our hobby, know what you are doing, and more importantly, how things can hurt you at every step.
I have used jack stands quite frequently for a few decades so here is my list of jack stand failure modes:
Not under car: Jack stands only work when they are pulled from storage and put into the proper location under the car.
Base pushes into ground: High risk when used on dirt, gravel, asphalt, plywood, or cinder blocks/bricks.
Base not wide/stable and allows the stand to tip over: Use widest base jack stands you can, avoid round or triangle bases.
Jack stand too short: You want the largest/tallest stand with the widest base for whatever task you are doing to maximize stability as well as safety if/when bad things happen. A 10" tall jack stand has a smaller base than an 14" tall one. Both could be used to raise a car to 16", the 14" stand is by far safer (more stability) especially when bad things happen. In the event the latch/pin fails, the car will likely fall less with the taller stand, which will reduce the impact load to the base, and in the event the jack stand it tipped over, but stays under the car, the additional width of base might make a significant difference in how low the car falls.
Top of stand slips off chassis: High risk when the chassis is not supported level or the jack stand is placed on a non-level section of the chassis. I prefer the tops of the stands to be "I___I" shaped so it captures the frame rail, cradle rail, etc. Jack stands should also be positioned to the chassis based on the work you are going to do - they resist slipping and tipping better in 1 direction, so if you are going to be pushing/pulling in 1 direction, optimally orient the jack stands to maximize resistance.
Top of stand pushes through chassis: High risk when top of jack stand is put under plastic or thin/excessively rusted sheet metal. If it flexes when the car is lowered onto it, it is not in the right spot.
Mechanical failure of stand/latch/pin: Use heavy duty stands from a trusted brand, inspect the stand and latch mechanism for any cracks, verify latches or pins are fully inserted. When latches are used, orient them away from the action. You don't want to be swinging a hammer or pushing a wrench towards the latch/lever on the jack stand. Accidentally hit the latch hard enough you can release it under load.
Excessive use of pulling, bumping force: Jack stands are meant to support heavy vertical loads, not excessive horizontal loads, some tasks should simply never be done while a car is only on jack stands.
Our prayers and condolences go out to the Allen family on the loss of Ethan in this tragic accident. what I do not understand is that if the center post collapses you still have the base stand supporting the vehicle. What I guess happened to Ethan is that the stands slipped out because they were not firmly anchored. We have a 2 post Rotary Lift in the garage and its pretty safe as it locks firmly in place, but we still use the 6' tall pinned stands for peace of mind. Better safe than sorry.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I would not put stands in that location. You could not pay me to get under that car with the stands in that location.
I agree. It's not safe. It's known to have slide off before as recently as last year. I would rather build a stand to pull the car up and install a thick pipe across the car by the trunk. There's a circle hole there that was designed for that.
I appreciate your feedback. Thank you. I'm hoping to hear more from people who have had experiences with this.
[This message has been edited by Fiero Vice (edited 08-01-2021).]
That's sucks but w/o data saying using jack stands is easy but may not help. Because even most of the Best stands need good level concrete surface to work right. "Hard Dirt" and Asphalt can move under point loads cause by most stands and jacks resulting dropping a vehicle.
Again... The above jack map is mainly a guide. It's not 100% accurate for all possible lifting you will do, especially the spots for floor jacks and jack stands.
Example: Rear Pink stands zones next to trunk floor are rarely used. Many lift the rear in center of cradle but have shorter stands that won't fit there. Instead many use the stands under the cradle, either the ones shown in the map or rear near 84-87 E-brake cables... Can be safe but has some "rules" and even then the "rules" may charge/mod'ed for a type of stand used. Or stands won't be safe.
And that's assumed the cradle etc doesn't have rust problems... Rust damaged areas might hold seconds, minutes, even hours then fail w/o warning. Jacking a car in states w/ high road salt use is often dicey.
Some stands are crap and never be safe in those and likely other locations. Stand Recall tread shows some of the crap stands made and still around even when discontinued etc. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/099280.html
⚠️ Warning: Many newer "Ratchet top" stands now have extra "features" to prevent releasing under load. Great on paper but Many of these parts barely work. When you install them treat as old ones w/o the new locking parts and think where release lever is and try to set them so can't hit the lever.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I would not put stands in that location. You could not pay me to get under that car with the stands in that location.
For this situation: Just holding the rear end up without the rear cradle installed, it's fine. The rear is actually pretty light without the cradle in there. I wouldn't be under the fuel tank area working but back where the empty engine compartment would be fine working back there with this support.
One of the things that I noticed in his thread was a picture of his car parked in a gravel carport. I'm hoping he didn't have the vehicle jacked up on that loose gravel because that would be another point of danger. Whenever I need to get under ANY vehicle, I only jack up one side at a time, make sure the jackstands are in the proper location, and use 2 floor jacks at the same time in backup locations just in case one of the stands fail. People say it's overkill but I'd rather feel safe.
Sad situation.
It would be helpful to prevent this from occuring again to another Fiero owner if we knew the specific circumstances of why the failure occured. Did the ground shift? Was the jack stand faulty? Were the wheels on the ground unchocked and allowed the car to roll?
I had it happen car came off stands be careful when using multiple stands it is just as dangerous with more jack stands when one goes it changes how weight is distributed and slides off stands i always also use a couple of wheels so if it comes down there is something to break fall which saved me. RIP Ethan and be careful everyone.
[This message has been edited by Australian (edited 08-02-2021).]
It would be helpful to prevent this from occuring again to another Fiero owner if we knew the specific circumstances of why the failure occured. Did the ground shift? Was the jack stand faulty? Were the wheels on the ground unchocked and allowed the car to roll?
In one of the texts I received from his wife, she said something about he may not have had the wheels blocked properly. When this is all over, she is planning on getting rid of the car and I've offered to make a post in The Mall when the time comes. I'll probably make a trip up there (wife's parents still live in West Lafayette) for pics and to assess what kind of damage it sustained in the fall. If she feels like talking about it, I can probably get more detailed info then about what happened.
When I found out about Ethan, I sent his family an email through Ethan's email address hoping his family would check his mail. His wife Ashley just responded to my email, thanking me. I would recommend you all send an email to her through the email link in his posts.
[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 08-02-2021).]
That's terrible news but unfortunately **** happens. Without knowing the details as to how Ethan had his Fiero supported it's difficult to comment either way.
I work under my GT all the time but, very consensus about safety and how the car is supported. My father years ago was almost killed by his own car. Working underneath it with only a jack. Needless to say the car moved, the jack fell and so did the car. Luckily he survived with only a head wound. Since that time whenever I would under any car I not only use jack stands but also block up. One can never be too safe. Also, I don't use jack stands that have a ratchet to secure the jack stand in position. I use the type that has double pins to position the jack stand height.
Very tragic for a new member to pass like this. It just reinforces the need to practice safety in all aspects of our hobby, know what you are doing, and more importantly, how things can hurt you at every step.
I have used jack stands quite frequently for a few decades so here is my list of jack stand failure modes:
Not under car: Jack stands only work when they are pulled from storage and put into the proper location under the car.
Base pushes into ground: High risk when used on dirt, gravel, asphalt, plywood, or cinder blocks/bricks.
Base not wide/stable and allows the stand to tip over: Use widest base jack stands you can, avoid round or triangle bases.
Jack stand too short: You want the largest/tallest stand with the widest base for whatever task you are doing to maximize stability as well as safety if/when bad things happen. A 10" tall jack stand has a smaller base than an 14" tall one. Both could be used to raise a car to 16", the 14" stand is by far safer (more stability) especially when bad things happen. In the event the latch/pin fails, the car will likely fall less with the taller stand, which will reduce the impact load to the base, and in the event the jack stand it tipped over, but stays under the car, the additional width of base might make a significant difference in how low the car falls.
Top of stand slips off chassis: High risk when the chassis is not supported level or the jack stand is placed on a non-level section of the chassis. I prefer the tops of the stands to be "I___I" shaped so it captures the frame rail, cradle rail, etc. Jack stands should also be positioned to the chassis based on the work you are going to do - they resist slipping and tipping better in 1 direction, so if you are going to be pushing/pulling in 1 direction, optimally orient the jack stands to maximize resistance.
Top of stand pushes through chassis: High risk when top of jack stand is put under plastic or thin/excessively rusted sheet metal. If it flexes when the car is lowered onto it, it is not in the right spot.
Mechanical failure of stand/latch/pin: Use heavy duty stands from a trusted brand, inspect the stand and latch mechanism for any cracks, verify latches or pins are fully inserted. When latches are used, orient them away from the action. You don't want to be swinging a hammer or pushing a wrench towards the latch/lever on the jack stand. Accidentally hit the latch hard enough you can release it under load.
Excessive use of pulling, bumping force: Jack stands are meant to support heavy vertical loads, not excessive horizontal loads, some tasks should simply never be done while a car is only on jack stands.
Awesome advice, FieroGuru!
Although, I'm a bit surprised that you are not for triangle bases. The triangle ones I got is at 21 inches wide, along with big circle feet that plants very well on the ground. It's even wider than my craftsman 6 ton stands that I got from the 90's.
In one of the texts I received from his wife, she said something about he may not have had the wheels blocked properly. When this is all over, she is planning on getting rid of the car and I've offered to make a post in The Mall when the time comes. I'll probably make a trip up there (wife's parents still live in West Lafayette) for pics and to assess what kind of damage it sustained in the fall. If she feels like talking about it, I can probably get more detailed info then about what happened.
Gary
Very nice of you to help his wife, Gary. Yes, if possible, we would like to know more details about what happened for education purpose.
I just found out from Mike Borroughs from StanceWorks channel on YouTube, that his buddy's, Evan Browns, car fell off the stands few days ago and crushed him. He's still alive in ICU, with two broken vertebrae, a broken pelvis, six broken ribs and both collarbones are completely smashed. They expected that he will make a full recovery.
All the reasons why we should be educated on how those things happen to anyone, even famous people if they are not doing it right.
According to Mike Burroughs, Evan's car had its rear wheels on the ground and was in gear. The front was up on jack stands. A loose wire caused the starter to arc, and the car lurched forwards, toppling the jack stands and crushing Evan.
Lesson: Before we go under any vehicle, the vehicle has to be parked and not in gear... along with parking brakes on and rubber chocks in place.
I know a buddy who was working under a truck when it went over his shoulder... all because he didn't have his parking brakes on or chocks in place.
This has brought back a lot of bad memories and emotions having lost a brother-in-law to a similar accident when he was only twenty-four years old. As a result, I am always cautious whenever I go under a car. I remind myself to slowdown, take my time no matter how much of a hurry I'm in, chock the tires, use jackstands, and I always keep the jack in place as well. I have always tried to instill this in my kids as well. He was a great guy and my kids never had the opportunity to meet him. His car hobby and fantastic collection of muscle cars and parts would have made him a multi-millionaire today. He had close to 200+-cars! Mostly parts cars. We had the opportunity to purchase from his estate his low miles 1967 Shelby GT 350 very cheaply but we had just purchased our 1984 Fiero and didn't have the money or storage space. RIP in Ronald.
My prayers and condolences go out to the Allen family on the loss of Ethan in this tragic accident.
Jeff
[This message has been edited by GTGeff (edited 08-10-2021).]
Originally posted by Fiero Vice: Awesome advice, FieroGuru!
Although, I'm a bit surprised that you are not for triangle bases.
Below are all three shapes with equal dimensions (though I did give the triangle a little more). All vertical loads go to the center of each shape. The stability from the side is the distance from the center to the sides or points of each shape.
The 4 corners of the square are the furthest point, so actions from those directions will have the highest stability. The worst side on the square is the same as the round base from any direction, the 3 sides of the triangle are very short to the center load point, so loads in these 3 directions have a stability about 40% less than the worse side of the square.
When all sizes are kept the same, the triangle jack stands will have 3 significantly less stable directions. Murphy's Law would imply those would be the only direction you would need to use them in.
