I feel it has become necessary to create this post since there seems to be a lot of confusion whether or not PFF on FB is "official" or not. Let me make that clear once and for all.
No it is not.
Up until a few months ago, I wasn't even aware it existed. I'm not sure exactly how I found out it did. Either I stumbled upon it or because one of its moderators contacted me due to a discussion that was going on there. The discussion of course being that people thought they were leeching of my name. Either way, I was contacted a few months ago to give my 2c. I joined, and they even made me "honorary moderator" - which I didn't ask for nor really wanted. But it was "to shut them up" as they said. I was asked however to not actually moderate and leave the moderating to them.
When asked for my opinion, I told them the truth. That I really don't mind much people using the PFF name (since people have been making PFF merchandise for ages and I never had any problems with that either), but that it would have been nice if they asked me first. And I left it at that. I never visit the FB page so I truly have no idea what is going on there.
But today, again my attention was directed to the FB page. Someone asking if PFF on FB was "official". Their answer was "Yes it is! Cliff Pennock is even a moderator here!". Well, that went down the wrong way with me. Because it isn't and has never been, and they are now using the fact they made me a moderator (without me actually wanting that, and even asking me not to moderate even though I have the title) as "proof" it's an official PFF page.
Also, they stated that the reason the FB page was created, was because not everybody wants to create a gmail account just for joining PFF. They are referring to the fact that a long time ago it was indeed a requirement to register with a "real" email address. I have no idea how long ago the facebook page was created, but "real email addresses" haven't been a requirement on PFF anymore for at least ten years. So giving the impression you can't join PFF because of that, is false info.
All that said, do I mind PFF on FB exists? No I don't. I can't stress that enough. I understand the need for a Fiero community on FB. Especially younger people are much more into social media and they feel more comfortable there. And in the end, all I really care about is the preservation of the Fiero. And the more resources available to that end, the better. But I do mind taken advantage off. I do not like the fact they made me a moderator and using that as "proof" PFF on FB is official. The only thing it is proof of, is that I don't mind PFF on FB exists and I even don't mind (much) they are using my name. It is not proof it is official, nor is it proof I'm actually a moderator there. And to prevent further confusion, I have revoked my membership there and with it my moderator status.
I don't want this to turn into a feud between PFF members and the members of the FB group. I think it's wonderful a Fiero FB group exists. Being a member here doesn't mean you don't approve of the FB group, just as being a member on the FB group, doesn't mean you don't like or don't support the real PFF. If you have a valid reason not wanting to use either one (you don't like forums, or you don't like FB), then fine, but please, do not stop visiting either one because it's not "appropriate".
The only reason I revoked my membership is to prevent the confusion. Not because I don't approve of the FB group's existence. So be a member on both places. The two can coexist perfectly.
Cliff, I've learned that the only thing a person really owns is their name and reputation. That said, let me play the devil's advocate. How would you feel if the fakebook PFF sullied your name, reputation, and what you've built? They've already demonstrated what they are by claiming to be the "official" PFF. I agree with Aus. Drop the hammer on these folks and make them rename their forum.
I had/have a similar issue, someone nabbed our very unusual mcycle forum name and set it up on faceache with our name, with the knowledge that this would get them great attention.
It is now renamed as "friends of unusual forum name". Which is probably not an accurate description of somewhere that steals your name. :0) Like Cliff I'm not overly bothered but unlike Cliff our website is not a source of income. If the intention was to make money from it I would probably be (even less) impressed.
We do get people posting on the forum that they have not had a response from us after posting on "our" Facebook page. So it for sure causes some degree of confuzzlement.
I'm not sure if faceache would actually do oubt if cliff did protest.
[This message has been edited by PK (edited 02-21-2020).]
Cliff, why not try and just regain the moderator status and de-facto run that group? Or appoint people from this forum to run it? As a moderator you would have that ability.
In all seriousness, I hate moderating. That's why I always wanted PFF to be a self moderating forum. I have given the members several tools to do just that. I only step in when it's absolutely necessary. But I want PFF to be a forum where nobody "fears the moderator". A place where you can call the moderator a "toad licking monkey waxer" and get banned for it - not because you called the moderator a toad licking monkey waxer, but because it's in the forum rules you can't call anyone a toad licking monkey waxer.
In fact, it's the reason I started PFF in the first place. Because I hated the over-moderated mailings lists that existed in that time where the moderators considered themselves semi-gods. I truly hated that.
In all seriousness, I hate moderating. That's why I always wanted PFF to be a self moderating forum. I have given the members several tools to do just that.
And it's not very effective. Sorry Cliff, I've been here a long time and I really appreciate what you've built here... but a "self-moderating forum" is nowhere near ideal. I've seen so many quality people leave PFF forever out of absolute disgust with the ongoing nonsense which takes place here. Yes, it mostly occurs in O/T, but it occasionally spills over into the tech areas as well. I don't mean to derail this thread, but you brought up "moderating", and I felt something needed to be stated for the record.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-22-2020).]
I have never figured out how Facebook takes away people from Forums; I am also a Glastron/Carlson Boat owner and am on the Classic Glastron forum, which is dying....Yet when I go to the Facebook Classic Glastron site it seems like all you can do is post a pic and short statement...later you cannot see it again, either to see it in the first place (Say, "How do I fix the seat mount?") or even to reference back to it. I can easily reference back to posts I read here- YEARS later for information.
On this forum and the CG forum, you can scan back a few days to a week and SEE different posts on different subjects.
If this site goes away, then the Facebook site is not in any way going to be able to function as a replacement- I am not interested in looking at a few pretty pics- I am interested in getting (and GIVING) help on Fieros....
And it's not very effective. Sorry Cliff, I've been here a long time and I really appreciate what you've built here... but a "self-moderating forum" is nowhere near ideal. I've seen so many quality people leave PFF forever out of absolute disgust with the ongoing nonsense which takes place here. Yes, it mostly occurs in O/T, but it occasionally spills over into the tech threads. I don't mean to derail this thread, but you brought up "moderation", and something needed to be stated for the record.
The FB group needs to lose the name, or be shut down. As others have posted much more eloquently than I can, your name and reputation are things you must maintain control of.
A few years ago I have had someone steal my eBay ID to use on a forum to sell illegal goods. They claimed to be me by using my eBay ID as their forum name (referencing my eBay ID and positive feedback to add credibility to their scheme). I only found out when someone asked me a question through eBay about the illegal stuff being sold.
Luckily I was able to get the info about the forum, get in touch with a moderator, and shut it down quickly. But it could have completely ruined my eBay reputation (which I take seriously). Apples and Oranges here, but you get the point.
If the FB PFF is not you, then they should NOT be using their name. If any place can turn to complete !@#$%! instantly, it's FB.
The FB group needs to lose the name, or be shut down. As others have posted much more eloquently than I can, your name and reputation are things you must maintain control of.
A few years ago I have had someone steal my eBay ID to use on a forum to sell illegal goods. They claimed to be me by using my eBay ID as their forum name (referencing my eBay ID and positive feedback to add credibility to their scheme). I only found out when someone asked me a question through eBay about the illegal stuff being sold.
Luckily I was able to get the info about the forum, get in touch with a moderator, and shut it down quickly. But it could have completely ruined my eBay reputation (which I take seriously). Apples and Oranges here, but you get the point.
If the FB PFF is not you, then they should NOT be using their name. If any place can turn to complete !@#$%! instantly, it's FB.
Sincerely,
A complete toad licking monkey waxer
Cliff they should shut the group down. There are 3 admins and 1 moderator and you are not listed. I see where they made an announcement last year that you were joined and were made honorary admin. The only reason I joined the group was because of the name, I would be surprised if that wasn't the case with most of the members.
I believe a lot of the reason for starting the Facebook page was due to lack of mobile photo posting. I will say that when I am looking at that group and refresh the page, almost every minute there is a new image posted of someone's beautiful Fiero or an image from the internet of Fiero's. People seem to go bonkers with posting images and it's a wonderful thing. Here, we HEAR about someones issue but people just don't seem to post images and it drives me nuts.
[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 02-21-2020).]
Once I learned the Pennock’s FB group was not aligned with Cliff, I left the group. There’s another Fiero group on FB and I’m still a member there. The only reason I joined the FB groups was because of the ease of posting photos. Now that Cliff has made it easy to post pics here, I don’t go to the Fiero FB page as often.
Put me down as another vote for getting your name off that FB group, Cliff. It’s not about being vengeful, it’s about protecting your name and the forum. This forum is what convinced me to buy a Fiero and begin my swap/restoration and has kept me going when I felt overwhelmed.
Cliff as this is not just going to impact the Forum should something happen over there you should consider shutting them down. Trust me employers look at these things and one sour encounter on Facebook could tarnish your name. That and what if someone does something stupid over there? Lots of good people have been ruined for less.
I didn't know that you were not aware of the group. If they are generating any revenue from the members be it ad space or vendor its money out of your pocket. I don't know what the real reason was for the name but its not due to any email address restriction. I have been here for 20 years and have used a gmail address for most of that time. But you can imagine how many people joined because of the name.
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: I don't mind them using my name. Just don't tell people it's a "sister" site or it's an "official PFF site" when it's not.
Yet you claim PFF doesn't pay? FB and this group is ripping you a big one.
FB gets money for every ad they push on a screen. Group get ad money too @ minimum. You should know this making FB items for others. The group owners knows and very likely watch this and other threads and don't care when you lose money or more likely 1 to several people hate you and laugh at you being nice and going bankrupt. Won't surprise many is someone in that group keeps DDOSing you too.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Created Mar 31, 2014 Changed name to Pennock's Fiero Forum Oct 10, 2019
What was the group called before October?
"Pennock's Fiero Forum On Facebook"
They removed the "On Facebook" part. I'm surprised to see that it was created so long ago and I was never aware of its existence.
I'm guessing the real reason they named it PFF is not because you require a "real" email address here to register (because that hasn't been a requirement anymore for over ten years) but because a lot of people search for "pennocks fiero forum" on Google. So they get traffic immediately.
This is the top ten search queries how people find my site:
This means that (at least) 1506 people searched for "pennock's fiero forum", but only 878 actually clicked through to PFF. That's slightly more than half. So the other 700 clicked through to (an)other site(s). That is the traffic I've lost. So people are actually searching for PFF but are "lured" away.
I checked on Google and if you search for "pennock's fiero forum", the FB group is only a few results below the "real" PFF. So yeah, if people don't know any better and they were sent by other people to go visit "pennock's", they might end up on the FB page instead of here. So my guess is that the 700 hits are mostly going to the FB group. So that *is* in fact leeching off my name.
This means that (at least) 1506 people searched for "pennock's fiero forum", but only 878 actually clicked through to PFF. That's slightly more than half. So the other 700 clicked through to (an)other site(s). That is the traffic I've lost. So people are actually searching for PFF but are "lured" away.
I checked on Google and if you search for "pennock's fiero forum", the FB group is only a few results below the "real" PFF. So yeah, if people don't know any better and they were sent by other people to go visit "pennock's", they might end up on the FB page instead of here. So my guess is that the 700 hits are mostly going to the FB group. So that *is* in fact leeching off my name.
I would ask them to either name change or close shop !!! Regards Danyel
I see at the of your forum, you have " Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock "
Wouldn't copyright protection help you in asking for your name to be removed from FB ?
Copyright infringement (colloquially referred to as piracy) is the use of works protected by copyright law without permission for a usage where such permission is required, thereby infringing certain exclusive rights granted to the copyright holder, such as the right to reproduce, distribute, display or perform the protected work, or to make derivative works. The copyright holder is typically the work's creator, or a publisher or other business to whom copyright has been assigned. Copyright holders routinely invoke legal and technological measures to prevent and penalize copyright infringement.
I've thought about it, and analyzed Google's search data and for me there are only downsides that the FB page is using my name. It "steals" away a lot of traffic because people are searching for "pennocks fiero forum" on Google/Bing/Yahoo and go to the facebook page because they think that is what people have been referring them to.
It also creates a lot of confusion among people. And foremost, it has nothing to do with me or PFF and it isn't a forum. So they should stop using the name.
I've thought about it, and analyzed Google's search data and for me there are only downsides that the FB page is using my name. It "steals" away a lot of traffic because people are searching for "pennocks fiero forum" on Google/Bing/Yahoo and go to the facebook page because they think that is what people have been referring them to.
It also creates a lot of confusion among people. And foremost, it has nothing to do with me or PFF and it isn't a forum. So they should stop using the name.
There are actually two or three Fiero groups that use your name as part of the title.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 02-24-2020).]
I've thought about it, and analyzed Google's search data and for me there are only downsides that the FB page is using my name. It "steals" away a lot of traffic because people are searching for "pennocks fiero forum" on Google/Bing/Yahoo and go to the facebook page because they think that is what people have been referring them to.
It also creates a lot of confusion among people. And foremost, it has nothing to do with me or PFF and it isn't a forum. So they should stop using the name.
You should contact Facebook and claim ownership, and/or give them the option to change the name. It is YOUR name after all.
Cliff you really need to claim ownership if your not going to authorize them. I understand you may not mind but your Name at this point is a Trademark for your site and you can legally lose your rights to it if you don't defend it.
Please consider this.
For myself, after seeing the way the group owner is acting to people who are asking him about this, I left the group. Dude is a grade A jerkoff from what I can gather which is another reason you should be defending your rights and not letting them represent your brand.
Nothing but the best ~Vince
[This message has been edited by VinceN (edited 02-24-2020).]
Thanks Patrick! I didn't see Cliff's question until just a moment ago. Strangely enough, all three of them now seem to be unsearchable, using "Pennock".
I had to laugh when some knob there accused you of "virtue signaling".
Yeah the owner of the group kept it going in private messages for a bit. He'd say something, I'd say it doesn't justify him stealing Cliff's Intellectual Property, and he'd go through the whole "I'm sick of this **** " spiel, then start over with "Can you see I was trying to help Cliff, and had good intentions?", then I'd repeat my point and around and around we go. I finally blocked him. He even admitted that if he had asked Cliff, he probably would have gotten a "no", so there you go.
[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 02-24-2020).]
Ok thanks. The bottom one is the only "official" facebook page since it is created by me. The first one is new to me, and the second one is Brian Godfrey's.
