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Will California emissions folk pass a clean 2.8 Fiero today? by hobbywrench
Started on: 04-30-2019 02:56 PM
Replies: 14 (662 views)
Last post by: cvxjet on 05-31-2019 01:11 AM
hobbywrench
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Report this Post04-30-2019 02:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hobbywrenchSend a Private Message to hobbywrenchEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Someone I know plans to repair an 88GT to use daily in California. Way back I was hassled there and told by emission people that Fieros had a "pattern failure" ( perhaps the'pig rich' fuel mix expressed here, somewhere), and CA wanted them off the road. Any owners there with status?? Thanks

Edit: Sorry, Just found the long recent thread on the topic, and this https://autorepair.ca.gov/ ,which hints at Fiero as gross polluter . Also , no one on that thread discussed the various "regions" in CA and that they may each tighten the software used. I think when I relate the info I found such as insurance, classic car cert, rolling road test etc, an average motorist would be foolish to try to smog this car in CA. Here in WA I had no trouble passing until I stopped at car age 25 years when no longer required. I recall the test here was on rollers @ 2 RPMs.

[This message has been edited by hobbywrench (edited 04-30-2019).]

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liv4God
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Report this Post04-30-2019 04:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for liv4GodSend a Private Message to liv4GodEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
an average motorist would be foolish to try to smog this car in CA.


False. I daily drive my 2.8 Fiero, passed smog no problems last year. My duke easily passed as well after replacing faulty cat and egr. If the emissions system is working properly on all points it will pass. I'm located in North Bay area.
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ItzZero
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Report this Post04-30-2019 06:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ItzZeroSend a Private Message to ItzZeroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I purchased my '87 GT back in November in WA and drove it back home to Northern California. It easily passed CA smog on the first try. Original 2.8 V6, with all of the factory emissions components in place and working.

[This message has been edited by ItzZero (edited 04-30-2019).]

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theogre
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Report this Post04-30-2019 11:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That May depend on exactly where in CA a car owner lives.
Some areas are more strict that others and not just cars. A "simple" water heater and other things for home and commercial installs have very tight emissions laws depending your zip code. If you install wrong type in a strict area then will be huge problems and likely fines too when you get caught.

In fact National codes no longer allow "simple" water heaters too but not as bad a some zones in CA. April 16, 2015 was when DOE "banned" old units that didn't meet new rules. https://www.consumerreports...ter-heater/index.htm

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Kitskaboodle
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Report this Post05-01-2019 10:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KitskaboodleSend a Private Message to KitskaboodleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have an 85 and 86 GT.
Basically, every 4 years I have to replace the cat in order to get them to pass. Both my cars have over 150-160K. The cat has been the determining factor because even after a full tune-up, egr valve, 02 sensor, sea foam, etc., if the cat is tired you will have bad numbers.
Bad news about California cats is they are kind of pricey. ($200-250) And yes, you have to buy a Ca.
certified cat as the muffler shop is not even allowed to install it unless the stamped numbers on the cat show that it is indeed a Ca. certified cat and that it is specifically for your car! This is why the smog tech WILL check under your car with mirrors to ensure that you have the right cat.

Lastly I want to remind everyone that the smog process for older California cars is much longer than for newer cars. And I do mean muuuuch longer!! You name it, they check it!
ALDL jumpering (to check timing)
Evap system
Gas cap
Vacuum hose routing
Engine timing
2 roller tests (at 15 mph and 25 mph)
Cat validity / correctness / mirror check under car)
Engine modifications

Typically it takes a good hour to get a Fiero smogged around San Jose.
Kit

[This message has been edited by Kitskaboodle (edited 05-01-2019).]

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hobbywrench
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Report this Post05-01-2019 11:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hobbywrenchSend a Private Message to hobbywrenchEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks, some hope. Yesterday I saw that LA still has the worst ozone pollution in USA. Not a favorable sign.
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cvxjet
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Report this Post05-01-2019 11:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I get my 85 SE V6 smog checked every other year, for registration.....The only problem I have had is the car went out of tune a couple of months before the test, and when they checked the CAT had died...so I replaced it and then the car passed with no problem. (And I have a 3.4 F-body block under the Fiero induction system!)

Whoever told you that BS about a "Gross polluter" must believe in Santa bunny and also that all green Fiero caught fire!
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Kitskaboodle
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Report this Post05-01-2019 01:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KitskaboodleSend a Private Message to KitskaboodleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I believe there is truth to that statement. I have had a lot of cars and my Fiero’s have always been the hardest to get passed. Fiero’s are getting older now so much more meticulous maintenance is needed to get them to pass smog here in Ca. and most Fiero owners do not “meticulously” maintain them. I have heard several smog techs say that the majority of Fiero’s that pass through their shops fail.
Kit

[This message has been edited by Kitskaboodle (edited 05-01-2019).]

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theogre
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Report this Post05-01-2019 01:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
"Federal" cats aren't cheap either and not something you want to replace every few years. Some other states still require you to pass sniffer test on old cars.
NY and others want CA emissions including the CA Cat in newer cars. Buying a new cat or 2 for newer cars can cost $500 - $1500.

If you have to replace the cat in a few years... Likely the engine has problems causing them to die fast.
Burning oil or coolant can do that and very fast too. Using high Zinc as "ZZP" in oil or added to oil/fuel doesn't help either. Other aftermarket additives and engine "Cleaners" have problems too.

Iffy O2 sensor or grounds can cause the cat to die as well because can fool ECM that engine is running rich or lean. Cat hates eating too much unburnt fuel or run too lean when ECM have problems like this. Many miss that a "One Wire" O2 sensor has a Sensor Ground bolted to engine or Trans and often was crappy after 5 to 10+ years of driving, more so on 30+ year old cars, so just replacing O2 often won't help.

Coolant Burning? Example: L4 likes to leak coolant into #4 cyl when intake gasket is bad. Coolant "burning" from problems like that has corrosion and other chemicals that "kill" the cat and O2 and w/o setting a code (like 13, 44, 45) until maybe O2 is completely died.
Fiero V6 and others may have similar issues w/ lower intake manifold gasket(s) w/ coolant going thru the intake man.
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cvxjet
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Report this Post05-01-2019 02:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I was able to find a CARB (CA) compliant cat at Summit for $140.....That was a couple of years ago....It appears that the Walker CARB-Cat is only $110 at Autozone......Do not buy thru your local muffler shop unless you know the guy well. (Correction- just found the MagnaFlow CARB-Cat on Amazon for $87!)(PN 332303)

When this happened, I also had the muffler shop build a bypass so that if my car starts running bad, until I get it sorted, I can replace the cat with a straight pipe so the Cat doesn't get damaged....Yes, that is technically illegal.....But they will have to crawl under the car to see it and most cops are more interested in the idiots with the 400+ HP cars doing stupid crap.

[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 05-01-2019).]

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ItzZero
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Report this Post05-05-2019 02:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ItzZeroSend a Private Message to ItzZeroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

I was able to find a CARB (CA) compliant cat at Summit for $140.....That was a couple of years ago....It appears that the Walker CARB-Cat is only $110 at Autozone......Do not buy thru your local muffler shop unless you know the guy well. (Correction- just found the MagnaFlow CARB-Cat on Amazon for $87!)(PN 332303)

When this happened, I also had the muffler shop build a bypass so that if my car starts running bad, until I get it sorted, I can replace the cat with a straight pipe so the Cat doesn't get damaged....Yes, that is technically illegal.....But they will have to crawl under the car to see it and most cops are more interested in the idiots with the 400+ HP cars doing stupid crap.



I just added this one to my Amazon wish list for future needs. +1 to you, and thanks!

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Report this Post05-14-2019 01:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for armosSend a Private Message to armosEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bought my 86 V6 in 2010, replaced the cat in 2012 and have passed each time from 2012, 14, 16, 18 on 1st try. My numbers were near zero from 2012-14, then started creeping up a bit. Still low though.
The Fiero is simple compared to modern cars, and I don't think it's too hard to keep it in condition to pass. Daily driving might make it easier, actually, because it won't be living the yo-yo lifestyle of sometimes driven, sometimes parked.

My understanding is that the pass/fail thresholds are calibrated so that a certain % of cars of each model will fail each year. I don't know how many % they want to fail though.
If you take the "2 speed idle" test (rural areas), then the thresholds are generic for all cars of the same model year. In that case, I think the V6 Fiero is actually better off, because it's MPFI system gives it an advantage against many cars of same model years.

========
And now I'll start rambling about what to expect with California emissions on a Fiero, just in case it's of use to anyone

I think a couple common problems for Fiero emissions are the EGR solenoid and surging idle.
If your address requires you to take the "enhanced" test, then it will be tested while rolling, which means N2O emissions are measured and your EGR system will probably need to work to pass that. But you don't have to worry about a surging idle, since it's not being tested at idle.
If you take the "2 speed idle" test, then you have to worry about surging idle, but EGR is more forgiving.

My experience is with the "2 speed idle" test, which is used for cars registered in rural areas. It depends where you *live*, not where you go to get tested. The renewal notice says what test you'll get.
The "2 speed idle" test measures emissions at idle and with engine revved (I think 2500rpm). 30secs at each RPM.
This test doesn't measure N2O. However, you still can't have a check engine light on, including the EGR code (32?) or it will fail due to the light (**). Also, they will manually open the EGR valve by hand to confirm that it's actually letting exhaust into the intake when opened. When you open that valve the engine should stumble.
So the EGR valve itself needs to work, and you can't have a check engine light, but they can't feasibly test the function of the solenoid that controls it. Solenoid needs to be there and properly connected - it's on the emissions system diagram under the decklid and they always check everything against that diagram. Look at that diagram, follow your vacuum hoses and do your own pre-inspection before taking it in.

** = There are workarounds to stop code 32 from popping up, but they aren't going to make the EGR work any better, so they won't help if you fail on measured N2O emissions.

Surging idle caused me trouble on this test (until finding a workaround and later a real fix). During the 30sec test, if the idle goes over a prescribed limit, then the test fails. The tailpipe test is automated, the inspector doesn't control it.
There is a chart somewhere on the CA BAR or CARB sites that lists the idle speed limit per model year. I think for 1986 the limit was 1100rpm. The inspector told me it was 1000rpm, but I think he was mistaken. I've been keeping my emissions tune below 1000 though just in case. I suspect it might be slightly advantageous to have a faster idle, because the Fiero's slow ECM and it's clunky idle probably gets the fuel pulses a little more accurate at higher RPMs. That's just my theory though.

Ignition base timing (as set at the distributor) is also checked, has to be within +/- 3 degrees of spec as written on the emissions label.
It is possible to tweak the timing if you do it on a chip, but not with the distributor. I guess you can play within the 3 degree tolerance, but the inspector might not read it exactly the same as you do so that's a gamble.
They do not plug into the ECM on OBD-1 vehicles. They will turn on the key, expect to see a working check engine light, then start the car, expect that light to go out and stay out.
After checking for codes, the only other interaction they have with the ECM is when they jumper the A-B terminals to disable the ECM's timing advance and check the base timing.
(That step is the only reason I think 7730 ECM swaps could be problematic. Otherwise we ought to be able to slip that through - and have cleaner emissions and better mileage... but this is CA and they want everything bone stock.)


The CARB emissions test procedures are available for download on the internet. It's worth reading them to know what the inspector will be doing during the test.

The tailpipe test is objective and straightforward, but the visual part of the inspection can have a lot of subjectivity.
Nowadays, emissions test stations are being targeted with "undercover cars" - cars sent out by the state which are illegally modified in some way (sometimes very subtle, and technically the state is violating the law here). Those cars visit a bunch of stations, and every station that passes it gets a huge fine. Those fines are publicly posted and what I've seen have typically been in the range of about $2000. They can also get their license suspended.
From what I understand, they also have a scoring system now. If a shop passes a legitimate car which then fails on a later test (2 years later!) - the shop which previously passed it gets penalized. This implies they have an incentive to pre-emptively fail you now, instead of waiting for you to possibly fail at somebody else's shop 2 years later.
So you can see how the inspection shops would be paranoid at this point.

There have been reports of some bonehead inspectors who think the V6's throttle body is an illegal aftermarket part just because it says "Holley" on it. In the absence of evidence, they guess it's a mod and presume guilty. I've not yet seen any official-looking documentation you can show them to prove that it's the original part. Only recourse is to find another shop.

Look up the "CARB Executive Order" number on your catalyst, and print it out. You shouldn't need to show them this, but might as well have it.
When you buy a new CA catalyst, look it up and make sure it has a valid EO. Look at the date code on the catalyst - sometimes the EO's expire and any cat outside the allowed date range will not be considered valid. Make sure it's all kosher and if it's not, return it.
My catalyst for example apparently expired in 2014, probably because the manufacturer stopped paying the state bribe on that model. Mine predates the expiration date, so it's still legal. But if I bought the same model today, and it's date code was too new, then it would fail visual inspection, regardless of how well it worked.

I'm curious what the rule is about non-CA cars. Back in the early 2000s, I passed emissions a few times with an imported 49-state car which had a replacement 49-state cat on it. Maybe the rules have changed, or maybe they just didn't check back then. Are 49-state cars exempt from requiring a CA cat?


Because of the subjectivity of visual inspection, I think it can help to try to make a good impression and avoid your car being a nuisance to inspect:
1) Present yourself and your car reasonably well. Don't let the car look like it is wanting for TLC. Avoid junky looking fixes like tape, etc. They'll be expecting and looking for a reason to fail it.
2) Do your own pre-inspection. Check the emissions label, hoses all connected as shown. Check timing. Don't bring in a car that has obvious problems, it just feeds prejudice next time you come in.
3) Remove the engine vents so they don't have to.
4) Remove the cover over the ALDL port so they don't have to.
5) A couple times I've left a sheet in the trunk showing how to read the timing marks, but I have no idea if they actually look at this or trust it.

When you find a shop that you like, keep going there. The Fiero is an uncommon car nowadays so they might remember you. A loyal relationship can't hurt.
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WKDFIRO
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Report this Post05-19-2019 01:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WKDFIROSend a Private Message to WKDFIROEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just had my 88 Formula pass smog last week. No problems. Usually I would throw an O2 sensor in on the day of testing but wanted to see how she would do on the first time.
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Larry Nakamura
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Report this Post05-30-2019 10:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Larry NakamuraSend a Private Message to Larry NakamuraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Since I live in CA, here is what I do before smog testing....

Make sure all ignition components are functioning well. This is spark plugs/wires,
ignition coil/module, distributor cap and pick up coil.

Make sure the timing is right on the mark. Incorrect timing will cause you to fail.

There is a CAT that is CA specific to meet CA smog requirements. You can jack
the car up and try hitting the cat with your fist. If you can hear any rattling, then
may need to replace it. Most CATs start to fail by the internals breaking up.

EGR is working, IE solenoid and valve. They used to press up on the diaphragm
of the valve to check the functioning of the EGR system. If working the engine should
stumble as if it wanted to stall. They don't do this any more, but they do a visual check.

Maybe do an oil/filter change and fill the gas tank with premium gas.

Take the car into the shop after getting the engine fully warmed up.

Not sure if they can still do a pre-check or not. That is you could pay them like $25
to hook up the car and look at the readings. Then you could see if you would pass
or not. If all looked OK then you could do the test, if not pay the $25 and take the car
home to fix whatever is wrong. This way it does not get recorded by DMV as a smog
failure.

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cvxjet
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Report this Post05-31-2019 01:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just had my 85 SE V6 w/3.4 F-body conversion PASS smog test in east bay (SF).....We are in a heavy traffic area in CA so tight testing...Passed without any problems. Have not touched the engine since it passed smog 2 years ago...admittedly only 2-3000 miles over the intervening two years.
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