Well, hello forum. I am going to try to make this clear and helpful, but I can be longwinded. On several members request via the FB Fiero group, I have been asked to document this swap I will be doing over the next few months /year.
A little about me. I have owned more then 10 fieros over the years since 2001. I have a degree in automotive repair specializing in GM electrical from Portland Community College in 2007, and I do work as an automotive tech and modification out of my personal shop. I have done a 4.9 Swap and a 3800SC with F40 6 speed swap. This will be my third swap but by far the most complicated. I currently own a 2004 Ion redline that has been modified to produce over 370WHP on E85. I tuned it myself with my own tooling. (HPTUNERS)
I have purchased an rolled 2005 Ion Redline with a 2.0LSJ Supercharged motor, and an F35 5 speed transmission with LSD. I am not 100% if i am putting the motor into a new fiero Chassis that I have or may acquire, or removing and selling my 4.9 swap.
Anyway so far I have removed the engine from the car. Basic plan is as follows.
Fab mounts onto an 88 Cradle Center Trans so I can use LSJ AXLES PULL BCM , CLUSTER, AND ALL WIRING Start engine by installing wiring on engine stand REMOVE ITEMS to see what you don't need to transfer over to run the car. (it will require more then the PCM) EXTEND WIRING to fit fiero interior for BCM, CLUSTER , ACCEL PETAL Install ION guage cluster, and BCM into fiero, and wire outputs to fiero items like locks, and dome lights Install ION power steering assist if possible MOCK up shift linkage and weld brackets, Order shift cables of correct length
And much more. I will fill everyone in as I go along. I will try to take as many pictures as i can, and I welcome questions, some of this will be figuring it out as I go as this isn't a swap that has been attempted that many times, and is more complex then anything I have tried.
I plan to jump into to Turboing it instead of supercharging, but use the stock water cooling system in the intake, instead of air to air intercooling.
Ok thats it for now. Thanks for listening to me, let me know if you have any questions.
------------------ 86 SE FASTBACK T-TOPS 88 FORMULA 4.9 87 GT MEDIUM RED METALLIC stockish
EMAIL : Anaverin@gmail.com
[This message has been edited by anaverin (edited 03-02-2019).]
I’ll be following with great interest. Been wanting a boosted ecotec swap since being an original owner of a redline.
Just curious on your existing one. Are you making that supercharged still or are you swapped to turbo? Got any YouTube clips of it? Would love to hear that, must sound exotic as heck
I’ll be following with great interest. Been wanting a boosted ecotec swap since being an original owner of a redline.
Just curious on your existing one. Are you making that supercharged still or are you swapped to turbo? Got any YouTube clips of it? Would love to hear that, must sound exotic as heck
I don't plan to turbo it, the supercharger is much more controlled for autocrossing. and 370 HP is already too much to keep the tires to the ground so far even with LSD diff.
The fiero i need to run pump gas on, so i will need turbo to make that kind of power.
Today I noticed some oil leaking from the pan of the donor engine. I did start this up in the wreaked car, so no worries there, its a minor leak, but it looks like the aluminium has a hairline crack in the pan. Luckily I have a spare LSJ engine, so i will need to go get the pan from that soon. I need to strip the donor car off alot of its wiring and BCM, while carefully labeling every connector. Going to be a little bit of pain, but that will be the next step. I would like to start this on the engine stand again outside of the car to confirm what wiring is required. Obviously the PCM will be, but will the BCM? what about the Gauge cluster? LSJ in the aerial atom is a bare PCM, but i am not sure if it will work in this application. If you know anything about this, feel free to post here.
Harrop TVS 1320. 2.8 pulley. Dual pass with option B. 80LB injectors. E85. PORTED and POLISHED head by CATEGORY V PORTWORXS. It actually isn't that hard with these mods, anyone can do it. Technically I am making around 360 because i need to convert to a return style fuel system , Right now my injectors are at 100% at 6200 RPM. So i guess 370 is what i know i can get at 6800 with proper fueling. I am not doing anything that isn't well documented on the ecotec forums. 350- 380 is expected with these mods and a proper tune. The real power is going turbo though, you could see 450 with E85 on the stock block.
I feel like of silly here, like it sounds like I am an idiot boasting, but I am not. I shouldn't quote HP numbers online though, it can get so hostile, and so many people are full of **** . I will en-devour to try to always be honest with this group.
Harrop TVS 1320. 2.8 pulley. Dual pass with option B. 80LB injectors. E85. PORTED and POLISHED head by CATEGORY V PORTWORXS. It actually isn't that hard with these mods, anyone can do it. Technically I am making around 360 because i need to convert to a return style fuel system , Right now my injectors are at 100% at 6200 RPM. So i guess 370 is what i know i can get at 6800 with proper fueling. I am not doing anything that isn't well documented on the ecotec forums. 350- 380 is expected with these mods and a proper tune. The real power is going turbo though, you could see 450 with E85 on the stock block.
I feel like of silly here, like it sounds like I am an idiot boasting, but I am not. I shouldn't quote HP numbers online though, it can get so hostile, and so many people are full of **** . I will en-devour to try to always be honest with this group.
Not to many arguments about desktop HP numbers here. Most folks are just going to be more interested in the ecotec swap more than anything. Thank you for sharing your information. I have always liked the idea of a powerful 2.0L motor in my Fiero.
I am very familiar with the LSJ/LNF as I have tuned many of them over the years. We are just jealous around here of people who are graced with E85, as it isn't available here.
I couldn't quite tell from the picture if it was a 1320 or not. And well you know what I would have said if it was a stock blower
My friend spent years getting his Fiero with an LSJ swap (from an 04 Redline as well) but using the stock LNF turbo. Got it to the point he was almost ready to drive it and then sold it off... Shame he did that I was waiting to see what the Fiero feels like with a torquey 4cyl, as I am only familiar with how a 3800SC fiero feels.
Wondering how they compare since the 3800 makes more tq down low, but peaks a lot earlier then an LSJ would.
Well, your friend must be COPPERTOP! lol, Followed his build closely. We have a 3800SC fiero in my friend circle that I also tuned. So we will see , but i feel like i enjoy the feel of the 2.0 in my ion more then the 3800. HP numbers that are achievable are similar depending on mods. So ??? I'll be glad to sure any info i have!
Since you have the donor car still, I recommend taking the entire wiring harness out of it. Take the ECM, BCM guage cluster, ignition switch, everything. I also use a donor car fuel pump assembly and wiring harness and the evap control system. You can tune out the vats with HP tuners and if you look at Lunatics thread he explains how to make stock Fiero guages work. I used my HP tuners system to tune out VATS on Lunatic's car.
People will tell you that the car will not run if you do not have the OEM stereo, ABS ,airbags etc etc but that is not true. If they are not connected, you will just get a problem light but the car will run fine. Very easy to take the guage cluster apart and cut out the appropriate leds that lights these up. I got rid of every warning except oil pressure and the CEL.
The BCM controls the fuel pump, AC and a bunch of other stuff. I use the guage cluster from a Cavalier but you don't have to to make it all run. For me it was just easier than trying to make the Fiero guages work.
I do not know if this would apply to a Redline, but the Cavalier has a speed limiter that cuts off fuel at 111mph. That can be tuned out with HP tuners as well.
Have fun with it, I have really enjoyed my ecotec over the years.
[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 03-09-2019).]
I have to admit I sometimes miss my 07 Cobalt SS, but the damn thing had electrical issues while still in warranty that GM couldn't figure out so I just let it go after the lease ended instead of buying it.
If I remember the LSJs have the speed limiter set to 155 or 158 mph, but it can still be changed with HP Tuners.
Please keep us updated on the progress and how it feels once you are done. Any chance of a TVS going on the Fiero?
Its possible, but i am not parting out my 04 redline, so i would need another TVS or go turbo on that car. I am leaning towards a turbo, so that i can get 350 WHP+ on 92 octane. I would like be able to travel with this fiero, and the one thing i don't like about the redline is traveling is difficult at best with the availability of E85. I certainly don't want to be restricted on both cars! The redline has a larger trunk to bring more spare canisters of fuel so, that is inciting. I can't even decide what fiero to put this in so, don't hold your breath on decision anytime soon!
------------------ 86 SE FASTBACK T-TOPS 88 FORMULA 4.9 87 GT MEDIUM RED METALLIC stockish
I am a big fan of turbos! Just pick a good size so you have a nice quick spool. I used to drive a friends LNF Cobalt with a S259 turbo on it. It was fun at the drag strip but the lag was terrible I didn't find it fun on the street!
What are the good ecotec forums these days? I went to the address of one that I thought used to be a big one, and it went to some home shopping network type thing I think.
Anyway... I know you've got your motor already you're starting with, but was curious your thoughts on an LK9 ( The Saab 2.0 Ecotec Turbo), which the LSJ is based off of. It seemed when I was checking yards that the prices were significantly cheaper than an LSJ or LNF. LHUs still seem to be fairly new and expensive as well.
My thought was LK9 with LNF/LHU turbo and any supporting parts that need beefing up.
The old ecotecforum.com appears to have been hacked and you can not get to it anymore. The last time I was there was about 2 years ago. It had very little traffic at that time. Too bad, it had a ton of good info. I think the jbody forum might be one place and I found one called ecotecpower but I haven't looked at it. There is an ongoing LK9 swap here on PFF but I don't have a link to it, forgot to bookmark it.
The Saab motor is also known as the B207R. (or B207L) . In the LSJ community we swap them out for dead LSJs all the time. The bottom end appears to be just as build, with the only differences being minor port sizes in the head and the cams are tuned slightly for the saab turbo. Biggest issue with getting one for a fiero swap is the sensors and computer system is difference and not tunable with HP tuners. Meaning you could get the motor, but you would still need a bunch of GM LSJ sensors and an LSJ harness, which might offset the cost of the cheaper motor. Depends on what is out there, but if you see a deal and can pick up the other pieces, GO FOR IT. Saab Turbo is garbage though, puts out less boost then the LSJ m62 supercharger, with more lag. ( I should know my Wife Drives a Saab 9-3 with a B207R and a f40 6 speed) Hope that info helps you all?
looks like i will be needing to put a new section on the front side of the cradle to clear things. Wondering if i can use steel stock, seems like that is what roger "thelinsells" does for the 2.2 swaps and what they did here. Any things from the brains out there?
Mine is a 2.2 ecotec cavalier engine and F23 5 speed into an 86 GT. I just used the stock cavalier motor mounts that were already on the engine by welding some steel directly on to the cradle. the only clearance issue was for the AC compressor and a bit of grinding and welding took care of that. The tricky mount is the upper motor mount, I don't know what Roger does there but I am on my 3rd version of that. They all worked fine I just have been trying to simplify things over the years. And sometimes fix things that were not really a problem . Pics of my mounts can be seen on page 1 of my build thread in the construction zone.
Mine is a 2.2 ecotec cavalier engine and F23 5 speed into an 86 GT. I just used the stock cavalier motor mounts that were already on the engine by welding some steel directly on to the cradle. the only clearance issue was for the AC compressor and a bit of grinding and welding took care of that. The tricky mount is the upper motor mount, I don't know what Roger does there but I am on my 3rd version of that. They all worked fine I just have been trying to simplify things over the years. And sometimes fix things that were not really a problem . Pics of my mounts can be seen on page 1 of my build thread in the construction zone.
So did you move the front crossmember of the cradle like most are doing for this swap? check out thread i posted 2 posts up.
No , no real need to other than avoiding the AC compressor and you can just put a notch in the front cross member to solve that. On mine the front crossmember carries no weight so it does not need to be that strong.
Not to jack this thread, but I have a question. I picked up a LSJ/5spd out of an 04 Red Line. It was missing the head, just the head, they pulled the motor/trans out and removed the head leaving the supercharger and all the bits on the ground. Since i knew the SAAB 2.0 head was "the same" i pulled one off and placed it on the LSJ so I had a complete motor. I'm going to rebuild the motor and just want to be sure that the SAAB head will work on the LSJ motor. Plan is to keep it close to stock b/c the 200hp is enough for me. Thanks in advance for any help.
A 2.2 head will work. They are the same, only difference is the LSJ was sand cast while the 2.2 used lost foam casting. All demensions are the same. Since the Saab motor is a 2.0 Ecotec from the same generation as the LSJ it should be the same head as well.
Not to jack this thread, but I have a question. I picked up a LSJ/5spd out of an 04 Red Line. It was missing the head, just the head, they pulled the motor/trans out and removed the head leaving the supercharger and all the bits on the ground. Since i knew the SAAB 2.0 head was "the same" i pulled one off and placed it on the LSJ so I had a complete motor. I'm going to rebuild the motor and just want to be sure that the SAAB head will work on the LSJ motor. Plan is to keep it close to stock b/c the 200hp is enough for me. Thanks in advance for any help.
Rob
Saab 2.0 B207L/R head is a perfect fit and a great replacement, i have used it many times. Better then the 2.2 head and retains the LSJ value cover. You will need an LSJ camshaft pos sensor and block off plate for power steering output. The holes are m6 bolts instead of m8. You ether get long m6 bolts, or drill and tap the 2 bolts that run long studs to m8. I have done both, but i liked the drill and tap method the best. Feel free to ask me any questions.
here is a picture of a b207r head on an LSJ block with m6 bolts in the intake that bought from local hardware store. Been running like a champ for a year. This head was actually sent to CATEGORY V PORTWORX for a port job and makes 15-20 more HP at higher boost with lower intake temps. I ran the LSJ cams and CPS.
Well the lsd transmission was slightly damaged on one mounting ear from the rollover. Took it in to get welded, and then i will re drill and tap the hole. This is after alot of grinding to get some cleaner material.
EXCiTiNG
thats the update for now. Hope you are all enjoying this.
[This message has been edited by anaverin (edited 03-23-2019).]
Saab 2.0 B207L/R head is a perfect fit and a great replacement, i have used it many times. Better then the 2.2 head and retains the LSJ value cover. You will need an LSJ camshaft pos sensor and block off plate for power steering output. The holes are m6 bolts instead of m8. You ether get long m6 bolts, or drill and tap the 2 bolts that run long studs to m8. I have done both, but i liked the drill and tap method the best. Feel free to ask me any questions.
Thanks for the feedback. Which bolts are M6? Are you talking about the ones near/at the PS output? Thanks again.
[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 03-23-2019).]
Originally posted by qwikgta: Thanks for the feedback. Which bolts are M6? Are you talking about the ones near/at the PS output? Thanks again.
Some people drill and tap all the bolts to m8 , which is what the stock lsj head is like. In my opinion, that is unnecessary and you risk screwing up the head every hole you drill and tap. At most, the only holes i tap are the studs one on each side and put in M8 bolts or studs. (I have even just used long m6s and not drilled and tapped at all, which worked, but i was worried about it so i now only use this method.) I usually use the studs i pull out of the old head, they are the ones with 6 inch studs that go through the intake bottom left and right respectively. ONCE you are holding an lsj intake you will know which ones you need to bore out and tap. All the others can just be m6s that the B207r head comes with. The reasoning for the bigger bolts is that the lsj intake has water cooling and is really bulky and therefore heavy. There is a bolt that goes underneath the intake, behind the alternator that is hard to see but is a 15mm socket size. i recommend with this setup that you put that one in for support as well. I made a crude image from memory. Hope that helps.
[This message has been edited by anaverin (edited 03-24-2019).]
Yesterday I got off the phone with ROGER THEIN , and I am ordering his front crossmember to weld into the 88 Cradle. While I could make one out of 2x3 steel stock, he has included brackets to maintain the stock ebrake cables for the 88, and detailed instructions on where to cut. In addition his piece is cut to perfect size so that takes the guesswork out. So far this is the only custom part that I don't have to make for the swap, but even then its a level of major modification.
Here are 2 pictures of what that will look like for reference (taken from another thread) I plan to make mounting points to attach the Trans mounts from the cross members front and rear.
Finally got a new M12 1.75 pitch hole drilled today and test mounted the front mount. Looks like its going to hold! Still waiting for Roger Thein s cross member.
Finally got to working on the cradle! Installed Rogers frame cross member. Honestly, i could of made this myself, but it was only 100 dollars, and i paid for the instructions. Its a 2x3 piece of square stock that I had to grind on a bit to fit. Make sure you cut the inside of the stock rail first because you wont be able to get to it later. Here is a picture dump. Here i removed the exhaust brackets:
Here I got the cross member clamped in place . I had to grind and pound to get it to fit, and I used the Motor mount holes as guide.
Then I Tack welded everything, which i don't show here, but here is the underside welded up.
Here you can see the Top with me starting to cut along the line of the corner that i will be leaving in place for strength (per Roger's instructions)
Finally you will see the 88 parking brake bracket that replaces the one inside the old cradle beam. This is the main reason I bought Roger's product, but in the future, Ill just make this myself.
For those curious about the car, check out my other thread. Eventually stuff about the car will enter this thread but i am a little ways away from that at the moment. I am going to keep the other thread about the body and interior of the car and this about the swap. Its got some frame damage thats pretty minor, but needs some repairs obviously.
i've been following both threads. How do you have enuf time to do both?
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Honestly i don't , but the wife is very supportive. It's a show process but i enjoy updating the thread so that keeps me motivated to do things worth posting!!
