------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 08-09-2018).]
I put in a call this morning. Hopefully they're still doing them. Thanks for the info!
Mark: I would recommend wiring your series III (DBW) engine like a series II and use the cable operated throttle body and a series II PCM. If you are going automatic then you must use the 03 GTP PCM. If you are going stick any year 3800SC series II computer will work but in every case reprogramming is required..
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 08-12-2018).]
Mark: I would recommend wiring your series III (DBW) engine like a series II and use the cable operated throttle body and a series II PCM. If you are going automatic then you must use the 04 GTP PCM. If you are going stick any year 3800SC series II computer will work but in every case reprogramming is required..
I have not gotten a reply on the wiring harness. I called twice and emailed this week. I have the pcm and harness that came with the motor..... 08' GTP.
So I have a few areas I'm not sure of:
*Wiring
*Emissions for the 3800 (what to keep / delete)
*Upgrades for the 3800 before install
*What trans to run ( 86 GT auto with shift kit)
*Pulleys and tensioners (plan to keep the AC)
*Engine & trans brackets (spoke with Fierorog)
I have a full fab shop with a hoist. I'm not opposed to buying them since the engineering portion has been done.
or just do it yourself. remove all the wires from the harness, then using the pinouts off Sinisters web site (http://www.gmtuners.com/) you can run each wire from the sensor to the clip. wire in the stock Fiero wires to/from the C500/C203. Its not that difficult and you get to run the wires where you want them, not where GM put them.
Rob
[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 08-12-2018).]
I have not gotten a reply on the wiring harness. I called twice and emailed this week. I have the pcm and harness that came with the motor..... 08' GTP.
So I have a few areas I'm not sure of:
*Wiring
*Emissions for the 3800 (what to keep / delete)
*Upgrades for the 3800 before install
*What trans to run ( 86 GT auto with shift kit)
*Pulleys and tensioners (plan to keep the AC)
*Engine & trans brackets (spoke with Fierorog)
I have a full fab shop with a hoist. I'm not opposed to buying them since the engineering portion has been done.
Any recommendations would be appreciated.
Thanks, Mark
I would not recommend using the 86GT TH125 automatic.It was designed to handle much less power. Even with upgrade mods ( longer clutch pack, shift kit etc) it's still only a three speed box. Much better to use the 4T65eHD that was designed to handle the power. It will give you FAR better mileage as well. You do realize that the 04-08 3800 engines were drive by wire. You can use that mode of operation but IMO its much harder to get the swap working. You will need the gas pedal module and when programming you will need to deal with the traction control feature. Its been done before but much easier to use the 03 GTP PCM with the earlier cable operated throttle body. If you must do the harness yourself, you can keep everything wired up on the original harness. Just use the GTP power center and just wire in the power, cooling fan, fuel pump and A/C on connections. I did my first one this way and ended up with the PCM behind the drivers seat but it worked perfect.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I would not recommend using the 86GT TH125 automatic.It was designed to handle much less power. Even with upgrade mods ( longer clutch pack, shift kit etc) it's still only a three speed box. Much better to use the 4T65eHD that was designed to handle the power. It will give you FAR better mileage as well. You do realize that the 04-08 3800 engines were drive by wire. You can use that mode of operation but IMO its much harder to get the swap working. You will need the gas pedal module and when programming you will need to deal with the traction control feature. Its been done before but much easier to use the 03 GTP PCM with the earlier cable operated throttle body. If you must do the harness yourself, you can keep everything wired up on the original harness. Just use the GTP power center and just wire in the power, cooling fan, fuel pump and A/C on connections. I did my first one this way and ended up with the PCM behind the drivers seat but it worked perfect.
I didn't realize the 08' engine TB was DBW. I want it un-complicated as possible so I'll take you advice and go with 03' GTP PCM. Do I need the PCM, TB and the throttle cable assembly? Wiring is not my strong point, but I think I can manage. What do you use for shifting the 4T65eHD? Stock or retro fit the a GTP shifter? Is the stock Fiero PCM still used with the GTP power center?
or just do it yourself. remove all the wires from the harness, then using the pinouts off Sinisters web site (http://www.gmtuners.com/) you can run each wire from the sensor to the clip. wire in the stock Fiero wires to/from the C500/C203. Its not that difficult and you get to run the wires where you want them, not where GM put them.
James Brown on Facebook did my swap harness. It was done very well. Danny Mclloyle (I think?) also does them . I think the price is around $400 but don't quote me.
Best thing to do is search, search, search and when you thought you had it.. search more.
James Brown on Facebook did my swap harness. It was done very well. Danny Mclloyle (I think?) also does them . I think the price is around $400 but don't quote me.
Best thing to do is search, search, search and when you thought you had it.. search more.
I may be interested in getting it done. Do you have contact info?
You can use the Fiero shifter for the 4t65e-hd transmission. You need to either fab up something or purchase shifter cable adapter to handle the mid engine conversion.
Its been awhile since I researched this (just swapped my Muncie 4 speed to a 4t65e-hd), I am not sure if the 08 transmission works correctly with an 03 or earlier PCM.
Don't waste your money on getting a throttlebody from a l67 engine. Get a 4.9l NorthStar throttlebody, an adapter and an LQ4 MAF, it should be better. Is your donor car a Grand Prix? If so you have the desirable Gen V blower on it.
What are your power goals. There are plenty of upgrades available for the 3800SC, and we can recommend any number of upgrades depending on goals/budget.
You can use the Fiero shifter for the 4t65e-hd transmission. Don't waste your money on getting a throttlebody from a l67 engine. Get a 4.9l NorthStar throttlebody, an adapter and an LQ4 MAF, it should be better. Is your donor car a Grand Prix? If so you have the desirable Gen V blower on it.
Shifter can be used with a new shift cable bracket and either a reversing bellcrank or the shortening of the GTP trans gear selector arm. As for the throttle body, . It requires using an adapter plate on the series V supercharger. . I prefer the using larger N* TB but again it dd require reprogramming to work correctly as do the use of the LS1 or L4 MAF sensors. AFAIK the 3800 engine did not have a supercharged version offered in 2008.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
You can use the Fiero shifter for the 4t65e-hd transmission. You need to either fab up something or purchase shifter cable adapter to handle the mid engine conversion.
Its been awhile since I researched this (just swapped my Muncie 4 speed to a 4t65e-hd), I am not sure if the 08 transmission works correctly with an 03 or earlier PCM.
Don't waste your money on getting a throttlebody from a l67 engine. Get a 4.9l NorthStar throttlebody, an adapter and an LQ4 MAF, it should be better. Is your donor car a Grand Prix? If so you have the desirable Gen V blower on it.
What are your power goals. There are plenty of upgrades available for the 3800SC, and we can recommend any number of upgrades depending on goals/budget.
I was told the motor came from a 2008 GTP. Maybe it was a late 2007 (Dennis)? Either way I guess I could confirm with the serial number. Power wise: 280-300hp on motor would be a minimum goal. NorthStar TB, L4 mass air and headers would get me close? Recommendations / sources are welcome. Shifter: Use the stock Fiero shifter and cable with a modified bracket? Throttle: Use stock Fiero accl cable with NorthStar TB?
2006+ GTPs had an LS4 V8, the GT models had the 3800SC. In 08 there was only a non SC 3800, and the LS4 available. Do you have a picture of the engine you can post by any chance?
NorthStar throttlebody with an LQ4 MAF (or LS1 either is fine).
I had to make my throttle cable longer, but someone had monkeyed with it before I got the car, so I can't say if a stock cable would work. I wouldn't bother with headers for your power goals. Stock manifolds with a nice free flowing exhaust, autolite 104 spark plugs, and a smaller blower pully, probably 3.5 or 3.4", and obviously a re-tuned PCM.
If you want to make a little more power, bigger injectors, an intercooler and a smaller blower pully, Cam is always nice. But for a modest 280-290whp on a dyno the mods above should do it. If you want a full size intercooler instead of the short stack, it will take some modifications to the read deck lid to fit.
[This message has been edited by OntarioKev (edited 08-13-2018).]
My Fiero setup is listed below in my signature. As for the throttle cable, I mounted my N* throttle body with the throttle pulley to the front. The stock throttle cable had no problem reaching it. Adding the larger TB and LS1 or LQ4 MAF sensor plus a 3.4" pulley, should free up a few more horsepower but I have found that with the series V supercharger an intercooler was necessary. The stock 3800SC series III engine provides 260HP stock. To reach 300 should not be that hard but you will probably need to change the cam to get there.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
On my previous setup I hit 305 whp with a 3.0" pulley, 60lb injectors and a full size intercooler on an l67 with a gen 3 blower. I suspect with a gen V you could do it with a 3.2 or 3.1 pulley. And that's WHP, which is more likely 320 to 325 crank hp. With an intercooler, a cam would not me needed to hit the modest goals of 300 crank hp. Just by getting rid of the factory u-bend the grand prixs are saddled with frees up 5hp or so.
On my previous setup I hit 305 whp with a 3.0" pulley, 60lb injectors and a full size intercooler on an l67 with a gen 3 blower. I suspect with a gen V you could do it with a 3.2 or 3.1 pulley. And that's WHP, which is more likely 320 to 325 crank hp. With an intercooler, a cam would not me needed to hit the modest goals of 300 crank hp. Just by getting rid of the factory u-bend the grand prixs are saddled with frees up 5hp or so.
My Fiero setup is listed below in my signature. As for the throttle cable, I mounted my N* throttle body with the throttle pulley to the front. The stock throttle cable had no problem reaching it. Adding the larger TB and LS1 or LQ4 MAF sensor plus a 3.4" pulley, should free up a few more horsepower but I have found that with the series V supercharger an intercooler was necessary. The stock 3800SC series III engine provides 260HP stock. To reach 300 should not be that hard but you will probably need to change the cam to get there.
What model car/truck can I find these.... Northstar TB, LS1 MAF?
My Fiero setup is listed below in my signature. As for the throttle cable, I mounted my N* throttle body with the throttle pulley to the front. The stock throttle cable had no problem reaching it. Adding the larger TB and LS1 or LQ4 MAF sensor plus a 3.4" pulley, should free up a few more horsepower but I have found that with the series V supercharger an intercooler was necessary. The stock 3800SC series III engine provides 260HP stock. To reach 300 should not be that hard but you will probably need to change the cam to get there.
I also noticed several different size MAF Sensors. Which is best?
In addition to the cam, intercooler, N* TV, Gen V SC, and a 3??" pulley, you may want to add headers to the vehicle. I currently have a 3800 SC Series III converted to a cable type throttle. I do not have a performance cam (XP) in mine but did use a VS cam for a more streetable vehicle. My intercooler is a ZZP short stack, ZZP fuel logs, and I currently have a 3.4" pulley installed plus a conservative tune. The dyno indicated about 300 ft lbs of torque and just a hair under 300 hp at the wheels. If I do want to modify the tune I have a 3.2" modular pulley that I can use to get some more hp out of the car.
Nelson
[This message has been edited by hnthomps (edited 08-14-2018).]
In addition to the cam, intercooler, N* TV, Gen V SC, and a 3??" pulley, you may want to add headers to the vehicle. I currently have a 3800 SC Series III converted to a cable type throttle. I do not have a performance cam (XP) in mine but did use a VS cam for a more streetable vehicle. My intercooler is a ZZP short stack, ZZP fuel logs, and I currently have a 3.4" pulley installed plus a conservative tune. The dyno indicated about 300 ft lbs of torque and just a hair under 300 hp at the wheels. If I do want to modify the tune I have a 3.2" modular pulley that I can use to get some more hp out of the car.
Nelson
That's looks neat and clean! Someone mentioned a 4.9 NorthStar TB. Is the 4.6 different? I'll check Rock Auto for the MAF sensor.
Yes a 2000 4t65e-hd from a GTP is a great candidate, that's what I am using actually.
You will want both axles from the donor car, as you will use them plus part of a fiero axle to make the passengers side axle for the conversion.
I would also recommend popping the pan off and looking at the internals. A lot of these turn out to have the clutches burned and sometimes other issues. Transmission problems are usually one of the reasons the 3800SC cars are taken off the road.
Yes a 2000 4t65e-hd from a GTP is a great candidate, that's what I am using actually.
You will want both axles from the donor car, as you will use them plus part of a fiero axle to make the passengers side axle for the conversion.
I would also recommend popping the pan off and looking at the internals. A lot of these turn out to have the clutches burned and sometimes other issues. Transmission problems are usually one of the reasons the 3800SC cars are taken off the road.
It seems they're trans eaters... I'll take a look at it before I buy. States rebuilt prior and functions with no issues for $250.00. At least a good core. He also has the both axles.
Originally posted by OntarioKev: I would also recommend popping the pan off and looking at the internals. A lot of these turn out to have the clutches burned and sometimes other issues. Transmission problems are usually one of the reasons the 3800SC cars are taken off the road.
The 4T65eHD is a very strong transmission. Forum member Darkhorizon ran numerous 9 and 10 second quarter mile runs with one. IMO, if the 4T65eHD is failing in a 3800 swap, its because the trans oil temperatures are too high. The trans cooler in the Fiero radiator is just barely adequate for the larger transmission. I run a Champion Radiator and a 180*F thermostat and trans temps stay around that temperature but if you use a higher temp thermostat the trans temps will rise accordingly.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
They are great transmissions in the Fiero because we are so much lighter. They often fail in the Grand Prixs though, which is why I recommend looking inside before you install it. For example the one I got was "working great" according to the pervious owner. All the clutches were burned, and a couple of the hard parts needed to be replaced as well.
With 10-20 year old transmissions, its better to look at them before installing to save yourself the time from removing it right away after you complete your swap.
The 4T65eHD is a very strong transmission. Forum member Darkhorizon ran numerous 9 and 10 second quarter mile runs with one. IMO, if the 4T65eHD is failing in a 3800 swap, its because the trans oil temperatures are too high. The trans cooler in the Fiero radiator is just barely adequate for the larger transmission. I run a Champion Radiator and a 180*F thermostat and trans temps stay around that temperature but if you use a higher temp thermostat the trans temps will rise accordingly.
I noticed you have several block off plates on the upper intake. Also are you running EGR? I'm excited to get started and trying to trim the FAT . Will I need the Northstar Adapter Plate from ZZP? Will it work with NorthStar and LS1 TB?
Thanks, Mark
[This message has been edited by quadsource (edited 08-15-2018).]
The standard easy series III operation uses the 2000-2004 N* throttle body (using the adapter) with either an LQ4 or early LS1 MAF sensor. Just be aware that its not a plug and play job. PCM tuning is required and to start the LS1 or LQ4 MAF table must be imported into the program and fueling tweaked accordingly. If you change tire size then further adjustments are necessary for speedometer calibration and for maintaining proper shift points. Its a job for a professional.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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