Always thought that the Solstice, was an off spring of the Fiero. Sadly, like the Fiero, it arrived with an huge media splash, and like Fiero, had only 5 years to work out it's bugs..before production was ended..Only in the case of the Solstice, what killed that car, was GM shutting down PONTIAC....
Fiero & the Solstice...two interesting Pontiac two seaters...
These are both examples of the ability of PMD engineers getting a project in thru the side door to production, and each in it's own way was a bean counter's fever dream. Also exactly that spirit, to get these produced, while knowing they were doomed in the long run, is why I have been a Pontiac Fan for as long as I have been driving...
------------------ 1988 Pontiac Fiero Formula, Yellow, original. (CJB #118) 1977 Pontiac Le Mans Can-Am W72, original, unrestored. 1977 Pontiac Grand LeMans 2003 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP L67/MN7 (Parts Car) 2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP L67/MN7 (DD)
Pontiac is kind of like Mazda......Both run by enthusiasts.......But you always have to worry about where the "Beans" are coming from......and where they are going!
Also, isn't it interesting that the Fiero and RX7 were the most successful in GTU racing....?
I think that the biggest downfall of the Solstice was having basically no trunk...Kind of like the 3rd gen MR2 (Spyder).....Non-pragmatic enthusiasts always say a sportscar doesn't need a trunk- BULL-Shoot! You have to be able to take a couple of bags when traveling, or when grocery shopping.....(The Fiero has incredible trunk space- If you know how to pack; Brought my Fiero to work packed for a camping trip- Co-worker cut me down with the "No trunk room" BS.......So we went out at lunch and transferred most of the gear into his 1st gen RX-7......Whole rear of his RX-7 packed- could not see out back window...and I still had approx' 1/4 of my stuff NOT in his car! Fiero; Front & rear trunk plus behind the seats)
Pontiac is kind of like Mazda......Both run by enthusiasts.......But you always have to worry about where the "Beans" are coming from......and where they are going!
Also, isn't it interesting that the Fiero and RX7 were the most successful in GTU racing....?
I think that the biggest downfall of the Solstice was having basically no trunk...Kind of like the 3rd gen MR2 (Spyder).....Non-pragmatic enthusiasts always say a sportscar doesn't need a trunk- BULL-Shoot! You have to be able to take a couple of bags when traveling, or when grocery shopping.....(The Fiero has incredible trunk space- If you know how to pack; Brought my Fiero to work packed for a camping trip- Co-worker cut me down with the "No trunk room" BS.......So we went out at lunch and transferred most of the gear into his 1st gen RX-7......Whole rear of his RX-7 packed- could not see out back window...and I still had approx' 1/4 of my stuff NOT in his car! Fiero; Front & rear trunk plus behind the seats)
Yeah, I've owned a first year Solstice...5 speed 177 hp beast..full pkg for that model year. I have a little over 37,000 on it...and yeah, having little or no trunk really bites the big weenie...gas mileage was so so...other things that torked me..is no place to put change ,keys, etc....the cup holders are CHEAP..and placed in bad areas...where it's almost impossible to use 'em....and the over use of hard and ugly plastic in the interior. and at least to me, the Bucket seats, aren't very comfortable...heck, my fiero buckets are far, far more comfortable......STILL, I'm happy that Pontiac built both the Fiero and the Solstice. A darn shame that they were allowed to continue to evolve..heck, when the Miatra first came out, the first 3 or 4 yrs, had issues...now 20 yrs into production, it's a nice little two seater.....no reason why both the Fiero and Solstice couldn't of had the same ops..but that GM for you...protect the Corvette at all course.....
My uncle has a 66 he bought new... He is always up my case about dumping the fiero. My recourse is you kept yours before it was a collector car or classic. So I keep mine for sentiment sake. One day with such low numbers it might be worth bank. He shuts up pretty quick. Only god himself will talk me into getting rid of mine running or not. Gotta love the dedication of the vette guys even though they have issues too. He says his brakes sucked from new and that's why he parked it. Must have scared the crap out of him even after 1000s in brake jobs and upgrades. I blame the greasemonkey working on it not bleeding it good. Maybe I can get it one day and prove its not the car lol. Still never getting rid of the fiero though....
GM lost focus about 20 years ago. The last thing you will see is some new mid engine performance. High performance GM is more a thing of past and what attracted people was race inspired now focus is on autonomous and green inspired electric hybrids. Other brands are like Honda by having less perfomance models are also losing sales. Not everyone bought the high end models but deleting them eliminates options and elimating the model out of peoples thoughts. If there was no BMW M3 there would be jack all 3 series sales to. The next generation chooses green overr performance but it doesn't relate with sales.
The fiero although designed to be a v8 vette killer was never made just the commuter car we strive to improve could you imagine the sales if the fiero was a built as intended. I would love to see a moden day GM mid or rear engine affordable car that was built for performance. I dont want an iodizer instead of an ashtray.
I think that the biggest downfall of the Solstice was having basically no trunk...Kind of like the 3rd gen MR2 (Spyder).....Non-pragmatic enthusiasts always say a sportscar doesn't need a trunk- BULL-Shoot! You have to be able to take a couple of bags when traveling, or when grocery shopping.....(The Fiero has incredible trunk space- If you know how to pack; Brought my Fiero to work packed for a camping trip- Co-worker cut me down with the "No trunk room" BS.......So we went out at lunch and transferred most of the gear into his 1st gen RX-7......Whole rear of his RX-7 packed- could not see out back window...and I still had approx' 1/4 of my stuff NOT in his car! Fiero; Front & rear trunk plus behind the seats)
I've gone camping with the Fiero. People could not believe a 4-person tent and all our gear came out of the car.
GM lost focus about 20 years ago. The last thing you will see is some new mid engine performance. High performance GM is more a thing of past and what attracted people was race inspired now focus is on autonomous and green inspired electric hybrids. Other brands are like Honda by having less perfomance models are also losing sales. Not everyone bought the high end models but deleting them eliminates options and elimating the model out of peoples thoughts. If there was no BMW M3 there would be jack all 3 series sales to. The next generation chooses green overr performance but it doesn't relate with sales.
The fiero although designed to be a v8 vette killer was never made just the commuter car we strive to improve could you imagine the sales if the fiero was a built as intended. I would love to see a moden day GM mid or rear engine affordable car that was built for performance. I dont want an iodizer instead of an ashtray.
Well you can thank the bean counters and the Corvette group at Chevy, for protecting their bacon....the closest the Fiero came to it's original dream, was the '88 model..then GM ordered Pontiac to kill the car..just imagine if it had another couple of years.....But GM has an long history of coming up and pulling the plug on many vehicles..besides the Fiero and the Solstice, GM killed the Corvair, and then the Vega....early vegas were trash, but the COSWORTH Vega, was a nice ride with some teeth.
Well you can thank the bean counters and the Corvette group at Chevy, for protecting their bacon....the closest the Fiero came to it's original dream, was the '88 model..then GM ordered Pontiac to kill the car..just imagine if it had another couple of years.....But GM has an long history of coming up and pulling the plug on many vehicles..besides the Fiero and the Solstice, GM killed the Corvair, and then the Vega....early vegas were trash, but the COSWORTH Vega, was a nice ride with some teeth.
What about the Buick Grand National and Buick Regal T-Type? Corvette owners were crying at the track when their brand new showroom car was being blown away by a brand new showroom Buick.
It seems GM/Chevy said "never again" after that...
Sports cars and cheap sports cars are normally short term cars that average 5-10 years at best. The problem is they generally make a big splash but at the volumes they sell at and the high cost of development they make it difficult to make a second gen in light of todays high cost. It is hard enough to make a business case for one today.
Mazda and the Corvette are two exceptions but most sports cars have seen short lives or where they come and go and come back to only go again like the Viper or MR2.
Mazda has done well with the Miata due to the fact it is a global car. They sell it everywhere so the volumes are much higher total but are made up of smaller volumes in each market. This has kept it safe to a point. But even then they had to share it with Fiat to spread out the cost.
The Corvette survived mostly due to the fact it was built with many shared parts to start. Later they chose to move it up in cost and make it a real performer that it is today but still under cut the others prices. Note the Corvette was canceled in the early 90's and the manager ignored the cancelation. That is the only reason we still have it today. He kept it and moved it to the C6 that sold well enough to earn a reprieve. But he paid the price with his job.
The Corvette did play a part in killing the Fiero but Pontiac did set the stage for them to have good reason to kill the car. Pontiac pissed off a lot of GM people so they made few friends. Then Pontiac over sold the car the first few years. The plant could build over 250K cars a year and as the Fiero dropped to normal numbers it put the plant at numbers that made it costly to build there. The GM 80 was to have come in to the plant but was canceled and once that happened the Vette guys had to protect their car as they are not a sure thing even today to get a business case approved.
The others like the Kappa Solstice, Sky and Lightning were all a hail Mary from Bob Lutz. Bob came in and tried to turn Pontiac around enough to make them worth saving but the G8, GTO and Solstice were way too late and all way under funded. GM was flat broke. None of these cars were perfect but for what they had to spend they were amazing they even made it to market.
The GTO did not get scoops the first year and the exhaust moved over because they were out of money.
The Corvair was killed by the Mustang. The Mustang was a very cheap car to build and the Corvair was not. GM moved on to the Camaro as it was cheaper to build a V8 Camaro than a Corvair . The Vair engine was expensive. Add to it the bad publicity and the fact the coming emissions in 1970 killed air cooled engines here. In time it even killed the Beetle and 911 air cooled.
The Cosworth was a Delorean deal. It was expensive to make and sell. The Vega had a bad rep for rust and engine issues already. The Cosworth really was advanced but not fast.
The GN was killed mostly do to the fact the RWD G body was killed and the RWD 3.8 engine was taken out of production. They used the last ones in the TA pace cars in 1989. They were old and GM just moved on to FWD and they did not fit. That is where the 3800SC came in and took over.
The fact is GM miss management of their divisions is what killed the Fiero. They were their own worst enemy. The Corvette guys just took advantage of the mistakes that Pontiac made.
The reality is Pontiac was set to die in in the early 80's not Olds. But this is what happened. The RWD Cutlass was killed their best seller. Then Pontiac pushed the Fiero and new TA. That brought many people to the dealers and many saw the new Grand Am and it became the volume champ of the non Chevy lines.
Many inside Pontiac never expected the Fiero to last beyond the second gen. Many feel it did its job in saving Pontiac back then. The Solstice even if Pontiac had lived may not have lasted much longer nor had a second gen. It was a way to bring excitement to a division that claimed excitement that had none when Lutz got there. The FWD GP was as exciting as it got. The G6 was a failure and the G5 never got he Turbo engine.
The Fiero program is a perfect case study on just how badly GM was operating and the kind of things that lead to them going Chapter 11. Each division worked against each other vs together and they would do harm if they saw it in their own self interest. Honda and Toyota did less harm to GM than they did to themselves.
Hyper.....All of your post is very good, and true. Too bad that Auto industry managers/owners and journalists don't have this understanding of what is going on.......They usually know that round wheels/tires will................"Roll"
... how badly GM was operating and the kind of things that lead to them going Chapter 11. Each division worked against each other vs together and they would do harm if they saw it in their own self interest. Honda and Toyota did less harm to GM than they did to themselves.
Hyper.....All of your post is very good, and true. Too bad that Auto industry managers/owners and journalists don't have this understanding of what is going on.......They usually know that round wheels/tires will................"Roll"
We as enthusiast look at it as a life style and hobby. In the industry it is a job.
They look at it as in making a return on investment. Many do understand and they stand out like Bob Lutz but many will remain silent or not take risk as they want along career.
John Delorean had good instincts when it came to product and engineering. But when dealing with Management he failed horribly when if was challenging people who did not like him. It cost him the leadership of GM.
I would recommend reading his book On a Clear Day You Can See GM. Also I recommend all of Lutz books especially Car Guys Vs. Bean Counters. It is a good snap shot of how GM was or was not functioning.
Another is What Would Jesus Drive. It was written by a marketing guy who worked in the industry at Ford, Chrysler and Nissan. He lays it out on how they all have their issues.
The real issue is the media and those involved do not like to speak out as it can black ball them from the industry. I know with many of the Fiero people for years many would not speak or if they did it was off the record. They had good jobs and feared for their futures. There was a lot of hurt feelings on all sides on the Fiero. The media is careful not to stir things up too as they do not want to be cut out of future products.
I wish a good book could be put out on the Fiero to show just how GM operated at that time. It would show just how GM was failing to function. Also it would set the real story straight on the car. The media just keeps rehashing either just part of the story or the wrong story.
It is so bad even many owners just do not know or understand all the factors that were involved. It was not just the fires or the Corvette people it was a number of factors that were in play. Lots of company politics and just poor management on both sides.
Here is an example from Lutz book. He asked why they could not match Hyundai on panel gaps. The Engineer said he could do it if they wanted them. Lutz said why did you not do them. He said he was not told to. He was not permitted to ask and had to wait to be told. Lutz said you were just told. The 08 Malibu was the first example of the new gaps.
Lutz was looking at the new Impala. The designer said it would look better with chrome around the windows but it would put them over budget and he did not want to get in trouble. Lutz asked would you rather get in trouble being a little over budget on a car that sells well or would you rather be in budget and get in trouble for a car that did not sell well.
Guys like Lutz are risk takers in an industry that frowns on them When they get it right they get little credit and if they fail they get crucified.
Lutz took a risk on the HHR. Many said it was too much risk. In the end it sold well over 100K units per year and several almost 200K units a year. It was really a Cobalt wagon and they would never had sold that many Cobalt wagons.
But he missed on Hummer as it should have been a model not a brand. He said it should have been a GMC. It would have been cheaper to manage.
But Bob is fair on this. He said that we need a mix of money and engineering people to protect each other from each other. Getting that balance is important.
Sports cars and cheap sports cars are normally short term cars that average 5-10 years at best. The problem is they generally make a big splash but at the volumes they sell at and the high cost of development they make it difficult to make a second gen in light of todays high cost. It is hard enough to make a business case for one today.
Mazda and the Corvette are two exceptions but most sports cars have seen short lives or where they come and go and come back to only go again like the Viper or MR2.
Mazda has done well with the Miata due to the fact it is a global car. They sell it everywhere so the volumes are much higher total but are made up of smaller volumes in each market. This has kept it safe to a point. But even then they had to share it with Fiat to spread out the cost.
The Corvette survived mostly due to the fact it was built with many shared parts to start. Later they chose to move it up in cost and make it a real performer that it is today but still under cut the others prices. Note the Corvette was canceled in the early 90's and the manager ignored the cancelation. That is the only reason we still have it today. He kept it and moved it to the C6 that sold well enough to earn a reprieve. But he paid the price with his job.
The Corvette did play a part in killing the Fiero but Pontiac did set the stage for them to have good reason to kill the car. Pontiac pissed off a lot of GM people so they made few friends. Then Pontiac over sold the car the first few years. The plant could build over 250K cars a year and as the Fiero dropped to normal numbers it put the plant at numbers that made it costly to build there. The GM 80 was to have come in to the plant but was canceled and once that happened the Vette guys had to protect their car as they are not a sure thing even today to get a business case approved.
The others like the Kappa Solstice, Sky and Lightning were all a hail Mary from Bob Lutz. Bob came in and tried to turn Pontiac around enough to make them worth saving but the G8, GTO and Solstice were way too late and all way under funded. GM was flat broke. None of these cars were perfect but for what they had to spend they were amazing they even made it to market.
The GTO did not get scoops the first year and the exhaust moved over because they were out of money.
The Corvair was killed by the Mustang. The Mustang was a very cheap car to build and the Corvair was not. GM moved on to the Camaro as it was cheaper to build a V8 Camaro than a Corvair . The Vair engine was expensive. Add to it the bad publicity and the fact the coming emissions in 1970 killed air cooled engines here. In time it even killed the Beetle and 911 air cooled.
The Cosworth was a Delorean deal. It was expensive to make and sell. The Vega had a bad rep for rust and engine issues already. The Cosworth really was advanced but not fast.
The GN was killed mostly do to the fact the RWD G body was killed and the RWD 3.8 engine was taken out of production. They used the last ones in the TA pace cars in 1989. They were old and GM just moved on to FWD and they did not fit. That is where the 3800SC came in and took over.
The fact is GM miss management of their divisions is what killed the Fiero. They were their own worst enemy. The Corvette guys just took advantage of the mistakes that Pontiac made.
The reality is Pontiac was set to die in in the early 80's not Olds. But this is what happened. The RWD Cutlass was killed their best seller. Then Pontiac pushed the Fiero and new TA. That brought many people to the dealers and many saw the new Grand Am and it became the volume champ of the non Chevy lines.
Many inside Pontiac never expected the Fiero to last beyond the second gen. Many feel it did its job in saving Pontiac back then. The Solstice even if Pontiac had lived may not have lasted much longer nor had a second gen. It was a way to bring excitement to a division that claimed excitement that had none when Lutz got there. The FWD GP was as exciting as it got. The G6 was a failure and the G5 never got he Turbo engine.
The Fiero program is a perfect case study on just how badly GM was operating and the kind of things that lead to them going Chapter 11. Each division worked against each other vs together and they would do harm if they saw it in their own self interest. Honda and Toyota did less harm to GM than they did to themselves.
....all valid points.....except the Miata was being produced close to 20 years, when Fiat joined it's party. The 'new' spyder..is just a miata with new sheet metal. The boys at mazda studied what made the MG's loved....and what people hated about them...they set out to build a two seater in the spirit of the B's and midgets...but without the problems those british cars brought....and it was priced to sell..over the years, they continued to upgrade it, fixed whatever glitches...and of course, raised the prices...hence, that car has an huge world wide following...and multiple forums-societies geared towards that little car....The Solstice was Lutz's baby, no doubt about it....but it did have some glitches, I know, because I bought one of the first off the assembly line in early 2006....and as sexy as it looks, compared to the ugky SKY (in my opinion) it had some problems..a noisy rear end...lackluster 5 speed...terrible interior. pain in the arse conv top to take down..overweight at almost 2800 pounds.....but if pontiac was allowed to live, I'm fairly certain that the 2nd generation of Solstices, would be vastly improved....but we will never know......and the same could be said for the Fiero ... GM dropped the ball.. but growing up in DETROIT, I saw first hand of that mind set..and I knew some engineers at GM....who whined about upper management and the bean counters.....
....all valid points.....except the Miata was being produced close to 20 years, when Fiat joined it's party. The 'new' spyder..is just a miata with new sheet metal. The boys at mazda studied what made the MG's loved....and what people hated about them...they set out to build a two seater in the spirit of the B's and midgets...but without the problems those british cars brought....and it was priced to sell..over the years, they continued to upgrade it, fixed whatever glitches...and of course, raised the prices...hence, that car has an huge world wide following...and multiple forums-societies geared towards that little car....The Solstice was Lutz's baby, no doubt about it....but it did have some glitches, I know, because I bought one of the first off the assembly line in early 2006....and as sexy as it looks, compared to the ugky SKY (in my opinion) it had some problems..a noisy rear end...lackluster 5 speed...terrible interior. pain in the arse conv top to take down..overweight at almost 2800 pounds.....but if pontiac was allowed to live, I'm fairly certain that the 2nd generation of Solstices, would be vastly improved....but we will never know......and the same could be said for the Fiero ... GM dropped the ball.. but growing up in DETROIT, I saw first hand of that mind set..and I knew some engineers at GM....who whined about upper management and the bean counters.....
I think I either was not clear or you misunderstood. Yes the Miata was the reliable British sports car. But what kept it alive is a global market. The global sales equate to 35k to 75k sales yearly. While American sales only account for 12-18k in sales.
This volume has kept it viable to invest in. But!
In recent years they gave the Miata a revamp but sales have trickled downward. This is why Fiat was brought in. This was Mazda’s way to save money to do a new gen. Sales are still stagnant.
The Fist is rebodied and is a larger car in length it only shares the platform and some mechanicals. It has its own suspension tune and its own engine. The Mazda is generally seen as the better car.
The Kappa was a car built on a budget. The rear diff was from a CTS. The car had bits and parts from a number of different GM cars even a GMC Envoy. It also was a show car that made it into production that often translates into issues like we see in the SSR and the 5th gen Camaro interior.
The bean counters were not at fault on the Solstice as GM was flat broke. They were broke much longer than most imagine.
The sales were so low on the Kappa at the end it would have been tough for even a healthy Pontiac tomapprove a new car.
2 seat cars are limited models as only so many people can own them, live with them or even afford them as a third car. Once you sell to that limited Group few rebuy till you have a revamp. This was clearly explained to me by a GM brand manager who was an engineer that also was an Alfa owner. His wife at the time was at team Corvette and he was at one time involved with the Fiero.
Mazda does a series of special editions but yet the global sales are still the key. If they do not increase sales by the next revamp it ma not make another round. If not for a Fiat it may have not made production this time.
The performance for the money has made the Corvette an Icon like Harley Davidson. But they have really had to work to remain viable as development cost are off the chart.
The bottom line is a company run by engineers will fail. A company run by bean counters will fail but the proper mix of both working together will thrive. This is not just my thinking but the same think Bob Lutz one of the best product guys in the industry states.
It is kind of like my marriage. I get the ideas and my wife helps pay for the worthy ones and rejects the dumb ones. It has really kept me from making major mistakes but we still enjoy life.
I think I either was not clear or you misunderstood. Yes the Miata was the reliable British sports car. But what kept it alive is a global market. The global sales equate to 35k to 75k sales yearly. While American sales only account for 12-18k in sales.
This volume has kept it viable to invest in. But!
In recent years they gave the Miata a revamp but sales have trickled downward. This is why Fiat was brought in. This was Mazda’s way to save money to do a new gen. Sales are still stagnant.
The Fist is rebodied and is a larger car in length it only shares the platform and some mechanicals. It has its own suspension tune and its own engine. The Mazda is generally seen as the better car.
The Kappa was a car built on a budget. The rear diff was from a CTS. The car had bits and parts from a number of different GM cars even a GMC Envoy. It also was a show car that made it into production that often translates into issues like we see in the SSR and the 5th gen Camaro interior.
The bean counters were not at fault on the Solstice as GM was flat broke. They were broke much longer than most imagine.
The sales were so low on the Kappa at the end it would have been tough for even a healthy Pontiac tomapprove a new car.
2 seat cars are limited models as only so many people can own them, live with them or even afford them as a third car. Once you sell to that limited Group few rebuy till you have a revamp. This was clearly explained to me by a GM brand manager who was an engineer that also was an Alfa owner. His wife at the time was at team Corvette and he was at one time involved with the Fiero.
Mazda does a series of special editions but yet the global sales are still the key. If they do not increase sales by the next revamp it ma not make another round. If not for a Fiat it may have not made production this time.
The performance for the money has made the Corvette an Icon like Harley Davidson. But they have really had to work to remain viable as development cost are off the chart.
The bottom line is a company run by engineers will fail. A company run by bean counters will fail but the proper mix of both working together will thrive. This is not just my thinking but the same think Bob Lutz one of the best product guys in the industry states.
It is kind of like my marriage. I get the ideas and my wife helps pay for the worthy ones and rejects the dumb ones. It has really kept me from making major mistakes but we still enjoy life.
Miata again, had 20 years, 20 years to constantly tweak the vehicle..unlike both the Fiero and Solstice, who had their production ended after 5 years. Corvette has been around for what, 65 years now ? that's an eternity....for any automobile, American, British, German, or Asian.....
yes, the Solstice was basically built by items from the GM shelf...heck, even the hummer donated something to the project...The Kappa platform was an exciting leap of faith for both GM and Pontiac....and think about it, The Fiero took certain things from other GM cards....and the original ford mustang, was basically an hep up ford falcon, with new sheet metal..with the 200 cu 6 cy...before they slapped the 289 v8 into it.......and car continue to change, before it got bloated up by 1973..those last mustangs, were as big as an house....until FORD rebooted the mustang II in what, 1974? or was it 1975.....and sadly, that mustang was an dismal failure on all fronts, including sales.....the fact being, most project cars are put together with odds and ends from other cars within that respected company...eventually, if the sales are there...they you'll eventually see the car evolve......or the plug gets pulled.....and yeah, two seater do have an limited audience.....9 times out of 10, most buyers know this...after all, how many Solstice, miata, or boxesters do you see at Kroger or Walmart ? not many I'm sure...
Pontiac had plans to continue the evolution of the Solstice...but those plans were nipped in the Bud, when GM send Pontiac packing...at one point GM considered building the Solstice somewhere else within GM...and they entertain an offer from DMC, to buy both the car, and the plant were the solstice was being made...but they decided not to and the solstice faded into history like the Fiero etc...a shame really.....I often think how different things might have turned out for either the Fiero , or the Solstice-Sky, if they were allowed to continue....but for better or worse, we still have both cars and both of these vehicles, have a loyal following...
Miata again, had 20 years, 20 years to constantly tweak the vehicle..unlike both the Fiero and Solstice, who had their production ended after 5 years. Corvette has been around for what, 65 years now ? that's an eternity....for any automobile, American, British, German, or Asian.....
yes, the Solstice was basically built by items from the GM shelf...heck, even the hummer donated something to the project...The Kappa platform was an exciting leap of faith for both GM and Pontiac....and think about it, The Fiero took certain things from other GM cards....and the original ford mustang, was basically an hep up ford falcon, with new sheet metal..with the 200 cu 6 cy...before they slapped the 289 v8 into it.......and car continue to change, before it got bloated up by 1973..those last mustangs, were as big as an house....until FORD rebooted the mustang II in what, 1974? or was it 1975.....and sadly, that mustang was an dismal failure on all fronts, including sales.....the fact being, most project cars are put together with odds and ends from other cars within that respected company...eventually, if the sales are there...they you'll eventually see the car evolve......or the plug gets pulled.....and yeah, two seater do have an limited audience.....9 times out of 10, most buyers know this...after all, how many Solstice, miata, or boxesters do you see at Kroger or Walmart ? not many I'm sure...
Pontiac had plans to continue the evolution of the Solstice...but those plans were nipped in the Bud, when GM send Pontiac packing...at one point GM considered building the Solstice somewhere else within GM...and they entertain an offer from DMC, to buy both the car, and the plant were the solstice was being made...but they decided not to and the solstice faded into history like the Fiero etc...a shame really.....I often think how different things might have turned out for either the Fiero , or the Solstice-Sky, if they were allowed to continue....but for better or worse, we still have both cars and both of these vehicles, have a loyal following...
Well the Mustang was another time but since it shared a platform it made it less of a risk to try.
The Miata changes have been minor. Special editions , wheels and an option or two. Much like they practice on the Camaro now with the Red Line etc. These changes take little to fund but their impact is minor as most owners will not move to a new model much like they already have they only drive on weekends.
The Solstice would have had a tough call to make a second gen. The numbers were down much by the time GM even said they were killing Pontiac. It was not an leap of faith but more a last chance shot to make Pontiac exciting again in a race against the clock that Lutz knew was a long shot. Those inside knew Pontiac was dying and GM just did not have the money to do Pontiac right or the management that understood them.
The Solstice job was to bring attention to the brand like the Fiero but they had nothing at the dealers to back like the Fiero did with the Grand Am.
Sports cars are not profit centers or even profit generators at low cost. That is why there are so few and why so many die young. They are mostly to attract attention for a while but then are seldom expected to live. Again the Miata only lives on careful global sales that few companies can offer.
Look down this link and see just what the production numbers are in each market for the Miata. Each is marginal to support the car but collectively they do. The Solstice and Fiero never had this and paid the price. Even then the odds were long they would have survived past a second gen even if they got one.
Porsche had tried the cheap sports car several times but failed. Today their cheap models are now much more expensive and to fill the gap of the 911 that is even more expensive today.
Ideally most models or platforms need to see 100K units at a average price of $35K. This will bring the return on investment to where they will see something. Even then they would like to see more. They can make a boring CUV and sell 3 times as many at a much higher ATP.
Today it is not about just making money but making more money per unit. Development cost are so high you see companies like Ford and GM joining to make transmissions and even now GM and Honda to share EV technology. GM has invested in tech and development as they want to be the go to company that works with others and it will reduce their cost on their projects.
Just a few years back BMW came to GM and paid them to make them a Auto Tranny. GM did so and was give the rights to it 2 years later for Cadillac. It became a free tranny for GM at that point anrf they did well. We will see more of this as many companies just can not make it without a dance partner anymore.
The Corvette will get more expensive as time goes on but they will try to keep it under the others. I expect Cadillac will get some kind of car based on it with their own engine again. This time I hope they do it right and not just rebody car. You have to make it different or it helps no one.
It will be interesting where this all goes as cars are dying at an alarming rate. Right now the Mustang and Camaro will go global as GT coupes to survive as American sales are no longer enough. They both died in the past before with the end of the Camaro and the Mustang II was really not a real Mustang. It could happen again if sales continue to decline.
The Truth is Cheap RWD performance is dead. Even Cheap FWD performance sucks. I did love my FWD turbo but you just can't get the power to the ground with the FWD. AWD moves it to $40K.
All this while kids today show less interest in cars than ever.
Well the Mustang was another time but since it shared a platform it made it less of a risk to try.
The Miata changes have been minor. Special editions , wheels and an option or two. Much like they practice on the Camaro now with the Red Line etc. These changes take little to fund but their impact is minor as most owners will not move to a new model much like they already have they only drive on weekends.
The Solstice would have had a tough call to make a second gen. The numbers were down much by the time GM even said they were killing Pontiac. It was not an leap of faith but more a last chance shot to make Pontiac exciting again in a race against the clock that Lutz knew was a long shot. Those inside knew Pontiac was dying and GM just did not have the money to do Pontiac right or the management that understood them.
The Solstice job was to bring attention to the brand like the Fiero but they had nothing at the dealers to back like the Fiero did with the Grand Am.
Sports cars are not profit centers or even profit generators at low cost. That is why there are so few and why so many die young. They are mostly to attract attention for a while but then are seldom expected to live. Again the Miata only lives on careful global sales that few companies can offer.
Look down this link and see just what the production numbers are in each market for the Miata. Each is marginal to support the car but collectively they do. The Solstice and Fiero never had this and paid the price. Even then the odds were long they would have survived past a second gen even if they got one.
Porsche had tried the cheap sports car several times but failed. Today their cheap models are now much more expensive and to fill the gap of the 911 that is even more expensive today.
Ideally most models or platforms need to see 100K units at a average price of $35K. This will bring the return on investment to where they will see something. Even then they would like to see more. They can make a boring CUV and sell 3 times as many at a much higher ATP.
Today it is not about just making money but making more money per unit. Development cost are so high you see companies like Ford and GM joining to make transmissions and even now GM and Honda to share EV technology. GM has invested in tech and development as they want to be the go to company that works with others and it will reduce their cost on their projects.
Just a few years back BMW came to GM and paid them to make them a Auto Tranny. GM did so and was give the rights to it 2 years later for Cadillac. It became a free tranny for GM at that point anrf they did well. We will see more of this as many companies just can not make it without a dance partner anymore.
The Corvette will get more expensive as time goes on but they will try to keep it under the others. I expect Cadillac will get some kind of car based on it with their own engine again. This time I hope they do it right and not just rebody car. You have to make it different or it helps no one.
It will be interesting where this all goes as cars are dying at an alarming rate. Right now the Mustang and Camaro will go global as GT coupes to survive as American sales are no longer enough. They both died in the past before with the end of the Camaro and the Mustang II was really not a real Mustang. It could happen again if sales continue to decline.
The Truth is Cheap RWD performance is dead. Even Cheap FWD performance sucks. I did love my FWD turbo but you just can't get the power to the ground with the FWD. AWD moves it to $40K.
All this while kids today show less interest in cars than ever.
I still disagree about the projected 2nd gen of the Solstice...It would have happened in my opinion... but it's an moot point ...sorta like debating what would have happened if the Titanic avoided the ice berg....lol.....yeah, for the most part-sports cars are not meant to be major revenue generations...but an little something like PZZZZZZZ in the builders current line up........and once again, the miata had 20 years. and over those two decades...there were tweaks across the board....look at the first one offered..and look at the current one.......and of course, the price increases......and again, I ponder what might have happened to the Fiero for 1989, 1990, even 1991....but we will never know....but at least we have those five years..and if you look not only at this forum, but across the NET itself, there's a interest and support for it...
as for kids NOT having interest in cars, may be true in your neck of the world, but in my sector, young guys here are still car crazy...ranging from ancient Land cruisers, Troopers, 60's muscle cars, to current mustangs, and other similar vehicles.........
all in all...I've enjoyed reading the comments on this thread.....thanks to everyone who's taken the time..to offer their 2 cents...
There is a book about the gestation of the 1997 C5 Corvette; "All Corvettes are Red" by James Schefter......One of the smartest things anyone at GM ever did was the Corvette team did not just ask Vette people "What should we change when we design the new Vette?" (The reply "Absolutely nothing!) but actually went out and asked 911 owners, Supra owners, etc "What do you NOT like about the Vette?"
This led to HUGE improvements in the Vette.....Sometimes, asking the RIGHT question of the RIGHT people will improve a vehicle (Or any product) more than all other forms of research.
I worked at NAS Alameda reworking S-3 aircraft....Hated the job for 8 years, and then we started using Total Quality Management (TQM) and , instead of bosses yelling at us, they started to listen to the workers; At one point we had been working 10/6 because we were behind; The reason we were behind was because a bunch of landing gear struts had to be sent out to be re-chromed......We had NOTHING to do, but if you tried to tell the bosses you'd be wrote up. TQM completely changed that- everything improved.
Any time you have a boss who believes that the only reason for existence is Self-aggrandizement you are in deep, deep trouble........
I still disagree about the projected 2nd gen of the Solstice...It would have happened in my opinion... but it's an moot point ...sorta like debating what would have happened if the Titanic avoided the ice berg....lol.....yeah, for the most part-sports cars are not meant to be major revenue generations...but an little something like PZZZZZZZ in the builders current line up........and once again, the miata had 20 years. and over those two decades...there were tweaks across the board....look at the first one offered..and look at the current one.......and of course, the price increases......and again, I ponder what might have happened to the Fiero for 1989, 1990, even 1991....but we will never know....but at least we have those five years..and if you look not only at this forum, but across the NET itself, there's a interest and support for it...
as for kids NOT having interest in cars, may be true in your neck of the world, but in my sector, young guys here are still car crazy...ranging from ancient Land cruisers, Troopers, 60's muscle cars, to current mustangs, and other similar vehicles.........
all in all...I've enjoyed reading the comments on this thread.....thanks to everyone who's taken the time..to offer their 2 cents...
The Solstice would have been a tough buisness case to promote for a healthy Pontiac a weak one even more so. Just look at the last two years of production numbers.
The Miata has only had three gens. Each got minor tweaks. But again look at the numbers global sales and only global sales kept it alive.
The recent numbers on the third gen are not doing well. Time could be running out unless they gain traction.
As for where I am from it the second largest state for registered collector cars and hot rods. I also work in the performance racing industry. While you local area may be strong the entire market is struggling to get new young people involved at a level like it was in the past.
Many events are nothing but old people. I was at one and took a phot as it looked like a nursing home with cars. I am over 50 and I was one of the young guys.
Kids today are limited in cars mostly due to the social aspect of the web. They no longer have to use cars to socialize. The cost also has become a factor as well as the technical advancements that have driven up the cost of modifications.
Don’t get me wrong there are still some kids out there but not like it used to be. That is not just my opinion but also the major concern of organization like SEMA and others.
I remember in the 80s when muscle cars were cheap and plentiful we could get 500 plus cars to a local parking lot to hang out 3 nights a week. Racing was common and that is were you had to be and be seen.
It is common now for many kids not even getting their license till 18 or later.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 06-27-2018).]
There is a book about the gestation of the 1997 C5 Corvette; "All Corvettes are Red" by James Schefter......One of the smartest things anyone at GM ever did was the Corvette team did not just ask Vette people "What should we change when we design the new Vette?" (The reply "Absolutely nothing!) but actually went out and asked 911 owners, Supra owners, etc "What do you NOT like about the Vette?"
This led to HUGE improvements in the Vette.....Sometimes, asking the RIGHT question of the RIGHT people will improve a vehicle (Or any product) more than all other forms of research.
I worked at NAS Alameda reworking S-3 aircraft....Hated the job for 8 years, and then we started using Total Quality Management (TQM) and , instead of bosses yelling at us, they started to listen to the workers; At one point we had been working 10/6 because we were behind; The reason we were behind was because a bunch of landing gear struts had to be sent out to be re-chromed......We had NOTHING to do, but if you tried to tell the bosses you'd be wrote up. TQM completely changed that- everything improved.
Any time you have a boss who believes that the only reason for existence is Self-aggrandizement you are in deep, deep trouble........
Yes asking the right questions is very important.
The rest is listening and acting on the answers is the second issue. Sometimes companies only hear what they want or egos take over.
The Solstice would have been a tough buisness case to promote for a healthy Pontiac a weak one even more so. Just look at the last two years of production numbers.
The Miata has only had three gens. Each got minor tweaks. But again look at the numbers global sales and only global sales kept it alive.
The recent numbers on the third gen are not doing well. Time could be running out unless they gain traction.
As for where I am from it the second largest state for registered collector cars and hot rods. I also work in the performance racing industry. While you local area may be strong the entire market is struggling to get new young people involved at a level like it was in the past.
Many events are nothing but old people. I was at one and took a phot as it looked like a nursing home with cars. I am over 50 and I was one of the young guys.
Kids today are limited in cars mostly due to the social aspect of the web. They no longer have to use cars to socialize. The cost also has become a factor as well as the technical advancements that have driven up the cost of modifications.
Don’t get me wrong there are still some kids out there but not like it used to be. That is not just my opinion but also the major concern of organization like SEMA and others.
I remember in the 80s when muscle cars were cheap and plentiful we could get 500 plus cars to a local parking lot to hang out 3 nights a week. Racing was common and that is were you had to be and be seen.
It is common now for many kids not even getting their license till 18 or later.
I would like to think in an alternative universe, the Solstice got an second generation..and did well......yeah, I can sorta concur with the lack of young people..at many events....but keep in mind, many 'muscle' cars, and hot rods of years past, are highly expensive..big bucks.....which could be out of the reach of many younger car geeks
still there are some young guys taking up the torch...but then again, social media, like taken the place of cruising ..and do high schools even teach driver's ed anymore ?
I took mine in 1967, only to get a legal license....but I all ready knew how to drive a car, hanging out with a lot of greasers, ..who had great rides....much better than the hippies of that era.....yeah, the world has changed...and it depends on your out look has it been good or bad........and boy, don't start me on OHIO.....being an michigan man..LOL!
spend many summers in the late 50's and early 60's, in both Elyria, and Niles.....I was lucky to grow up IN DETROIT....the center of the automotive universe...
I'm hoping one day, GM will once again...consider an mid engine 2 seater....even bringing back and tweaking the FIERO..probably will never happen..but an old gear head can dream, eh ?
Sadly, there will be another mid-engined american sports car; The next Vette will be mid-engined, and apparently will cost at least twice as much..."The Corvette is now an Exclusive car- no peasants need apply!"
If the Vette is ME, then there will never be any low-priced ME car allowed......The only two cars now aimed at entry level, fun sports car ownership are the Miata and the 86/BRZ twins...Everything else is much more expensive and usually way too powerful......I would not trust any of the drivers I see with 400 hp.......Hell, I had a 1999 Formula F-bird with 310 hp......Most drivers WOULD (Not Could) get in serious trouble with that car......
Sadly, there will be another mid-engined american sports car; The next Vette will be mid-engined, and apparently will cost at least twice as much..."The Corvette is now an Exclusive car- no peasants need apply!"
If the Vette is ME, then there will never be any low-priced ME car allowed......The only two cars now aimed at entry level, fun sports car ownership are the Miata and the 86/BRZ twins...Everything else is much more expensive and usually way too powerful......I would not trust any of the drivers I see with 400 hp.......Hell, I had a 1999 Formula F-bird with 310 hp......Most drivers WOULD (Not Could) get in serious trouble with that car......
how true....but the vette is so expensive these daus....truly the car of blue bloods........Since we are reflecting on two seaters..on this forum.. does anyone have any opinion on BMW's Z series...the Z 3 and Z 4...
Any auto company that produces a 2 seater, like a sports car, has to understand that it is basically competing with things like motorcycles for the public's money. i say my Fiero is my motorcycle, because like most motorcycles, you can only take two people. jon
------------------ I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun! 3800 SC swap to come!
I would like to think in an alternative universe, the Solstice got an second generation..and did well......yeah, I can sorta concur with the lack of young people..at many events....but keep in mind, many 'muscle' cars, and hot rods of years past, are highly expensive..big bucks.....which could be out of the reach of many younger car geeks
still there are some young guys taking up the torch...but then again, social media, like taken the place of cruising ..and do high schools even teach driver's ed anymore ?
I took mine in 1967, only to get a legal license....but I all ready knew how to drive a car, hanging out with a lot of greasers, ..who had great rides....much better than the hippies of that era.....yeah, the world has changed...and it depends on your out look has it been good or bad........and boy, don't start me on OHIO.....being an michigan man..LOL!
spend many summers in the late 50's and early 60's, in both Elyria, and Niles.....I was lucky to grow up IN DETROIT....the center of the automotive universe...
I'm hoping one day, GM will once again...consider an mid engine 2 seater....even bringing back and tweaking the FIERO..probably will never happen..but an old gear head can dream, eh ?
I wish it had a longer life. I had looked at the Targa coupe model but the wife said one two seat car was enough at the time.
I understand the expense of older muscle cars well. But the 4th gen F bodies and the Mustangs are dirt cheap but so few are going to them. I had a neighbor that tried to sell a 2002 SS Camaro with 17K miles for $17K. He had all the SLP stuff on it too. He sat on it for 2 years and dumped it for $9K. Supplies are high and demand is low on these cars. The LT1 is even cheap to fix up.
I at one time has prime condition 68 SS Chevelle. 70 Monte Carlo and 72 GMC Sprint SP [the SS version of the GMC model Big Block]
Yes there are still some kids but not like it used to be. Many grew up in mini vans and Honda's. There is still strong truck segment and Jeep. They are some of the best growing segments in the performance aftermarket.
Well the Vette is coming for Mid Engine and many will be surprised at what you will get and how low the price will be. Yes it will be expensive but nothing is cheap in this age of nearly $40K Malibu 4 cylinders.
I have see some things on what is coming and it is going to be fun. Even if you can't buy a new one a good used one in a few years will be affordable and low mile.
Sadly, there will be another mid-engined american sports car; The next Vette will be mid-engined, and apparently will cost at least twice as much..."The Corvette is now an Exclusive car- no peasants need apply!"
If the Vette is ME, then there will never be any low-priced ME car allowed......The only two cars now aimed at entry level, fun sports car ownership are the Miata and the 86/BRZ twins...Everything else is much more expensive and usually way too powerful......I would not trust any of the drivers I see with 400 hp.......Hell, I had a 1999 Formula F-bird with 310 hp......Most drivers WOULD (Not Could) get in serious trouble with that car......
Well you will have some surprises coming. While the Corvette is not cheap what car is? This is an age of $40K Malibu's and $65K trucks. The average price of a vehicle is over $36K today. Even a Miata starts at $25 and nears $40K if you get a decent one.
But with that said you should see the Vette prices go up just a small bit for the base models. They will not double in price. Look for the standard model well optioned at $75K but it will still be a lot of car for the money. The up models will grow in price but will still be far below the $170K for the Audi or McLaren mid engines. Also the upper level cars will out run the GT at ford for 1/4 the price.
As for low cost mid engines that time has come and past. Just too impractical for the average buyers. They want trunks and ability to weekend without garbage bags luggage.
Note today to that most cars today are at or close to 300 HP now. That is just a normal car anymore. My truck and the wife's SUV are over 300 HP and that is just average anymore. Fast does not start till you get to 450 HP or more. .
Note too if the Vette is too much just wait a couple years and you will get a good low mile one for much less. Just look at the C6 models that have below 20K miles selling in the teens. The ME will do the same if it sells in good volumes as expected.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 06-28-2018).]
Any auto company that produces a 2 seater, like a sports car, has to understand that it is basically competing with things like motorcycles for the public's money. i say my Fiero is my motorcycle, because like most motorcycles, you can only take two people. jon
Might note the sales of Motorcycles are really on a decline. Most MFGs are having a difficult time with new sales. Harley has really been down.
I find this odd that we are talking about Fiero's Offspring and no one here has yet to mention Saturn. Saturn is credited with the first gm production car to have electronic power steering. Saturn also had the All New dent less composite body according to their sales info back in the early 90's Saturn also started with space frame and similar construction as the fiero. I’ve always felt like a little piece of the fiero lived on until saturns death.
That and I always Tease the Fierbird and Camaro guys when they talk about their car and Diss mine and ask just where they think the design for their car came from? then proceed to show them this photo
Now im not saying they stole the design. Im sure it was the same design team who worked on both cars.
I find this odd that we are talking about Fiero's Offspring and no one here has yet to mention Saturn. Saturn is credited with the first gm production car to have electronic power steering. Saturn also had the All New dent less composite body according to their sales info back in the early 90's Saturn also started with space frame and similar construction as the fiero. I’ve always felt like a little piece of the fiero lived on until saturns death.
That and I always Tease the Fierbird and Camaro guys when they talk about their car and Diss mine and ask just where they think the design for their car came from? then proceed to show them this photo
Now im not saying they stole the design. Im sure it was the same design team who worked on both cars.
just my 2 cents.
Not just your two cents but fact.
The 4th gen F Body was based on the after 2nd gen GT.
I was there the night John Schinella the lead designer at GM told the story. He is the guy behind many of GM’s best designs. He fought to save the Fiero. But when it was canceled he was faced with a Fiero design he loved and a need to replace the GM 80 F body replacement that also was canceled.
John said the Fiero was too good to throw away so they adapted it to the 4th gen body. It was done intentionally.
Also you may note the dash face on the Fiero prototypes and 4th gen were nearly identical.
So when you tell the story it is a fact the 4th gen design is a Fiero legacy. The story came from the man who oversaw both cars. It was stated in the early 90’s at the Silverdome where the Fiero nationals banquet was held.
I was there and heard it first hand. Note too that was the first night the 1990 photos were shown. Really good night to have been there.
This is what happened. John was the primary speaker and that day they were to show the 1990 Fiero to us at the show. Well it was like 1991-2 or about and feelings were still pretty sore at GM and with the UAW over the Fiero cancelation. Also their were some pretty sore feeling inside GM in general.
John spoke that night and was pissed off they would not bring the car out. So he brought sides of the photos we all see today to the dinner and showed them to us. That is when he related the story on trying to save the Fiero and much of the politics involved. He also related how that he had the challenge to redesign the GM 80 and as he said "the Design was too good to just throw away".
The photos he showed that night later show up in a magazine quietly a couple months later. I have a feeling he may have leaked them out.
John said that the photos were not to leave GM but he was about to retire and they could not do anything to him.
Many always go on about Hulki but John was with the Fiero program from the start to finish unlike Hulki who left in 1984. John was a maverick at GM and was not afraid to speak up. He is someone that really knows the full story of the Fiero and has worked to protect it.
John is the one who wanted the bird on the hood of the Trans Am and was vetoed by his boss Bill Mitchell. So he took a 455 SD TA and painted it the black and gold Mitchells John Player Special Triumph was painted. Well Bill was taken by the colors and pin stripes and approved the bird for production.
With out Johns efforts the Bandit may not have had a black and gold TA.
That was also the night I sat with the Gentleman from Cars and Concepts and got the whole T top story as he was the one responsible for going to Pontiac and showing it could be done in 1983.
These stories need to be shared as if we do not pass them on or record them they will be lost.
