I got my oil pan put on and will be replacing the oil but it brought up another question. From what I understand synthetic oil does not need to be changed as often. Engine debris, however small gets trapped in the oil filter. The filter I am using is the best NAPA sells. Should one change the filter more often then the oil? Certainly, more oil will need to be added to replace what was in the filter and the plumbing up to the filter.
The other day I watched a YouTube on the quality of oil filters. Man there are some bad filters out there. Fram seemed to be the worse.
I use Wix or Hastings branded only and a quality full synthetic oil...… I change every five thousand or once a year as I have never driven more than 2500 miles in a year.
Yes use synthetic oil. It is more durable and better oil in every way. Heat in the Fiero is a little higher to it will provide better protection.
Depending on how you drive Syn oils are good from 6k to 9 k miles. My Turbo with the GM oil condition percentage was 7500 around town.
I use Mobil One exclusive. You can get it at Walmart for only a little more than Dino oil.
Filters just use a goo name brand and change it with the oil.
I use AC Delcos and never had an issue.
Oils and filters are not complicated but some people treat the like politics and religion. These are what work for me and there are other brands that work just the same.
Do read up on the oils as I have gone yo a flat tap pet friendly grade of Mobil One. All oils have had the Zink removed and it is hurting flat tappet cams. That is the real issue today and so few people know about it.
They argue about things that matter little but the real issue.
It is the 15W50 anti wear Mobil One.
On new cars it does not matter as they have roller tappers.
... Do read up on the oils as I have gone to a flat tappet friendly grade of Mobil One. All oils have had the Zink removed and it is hurting flat tappet cams. That is the real issue today and so few people know about it. ... It is the 15W50 anti wear Mobil One.
When I had my 3.4 (flat tappets) I used Rotella T, 15W40, to get around the Zinc issue. Never had any problems with it. Still haven't heard of any, six years later. (The car is still "around".)
What does the Mobil One have in it that helps to offset the removal of the Zinc?
When I had my 3.4 (flat tappets) I used Rotella T, 15W40, to get around the Zinc issue. Never had any problems with it. Still haven't heard of any, six years later. (The car is still "around".)
What does the Mobil One have in it that helps to offset the removal of the Zinc?
Rotella is no longer loaded with Zinc.
I am not sure what the 15w 50 Mobil has fun it is what is recommended for flat tappers on their web site.
Break in on cams Zinc is a must and break in lube that’s replaced it. Once broke in the cam can face a slow wear down.
Thanks for that. I had heard that about Rotella, but I sold that car six years ago. Everything I have now has roller tappets, so I haven't paid attention.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Mobil 1 European formula also has the higher zinc levels. Comes in full synthetic 0w-40, which is a little closer to the GM recommended 5w-30.
I was told putting full syn in a engine that has had dino oil in it since new with high miles on it by now will kill it because the new syn will basically break down all the gunk that's plugging the leaks in bad seals. Is there anything to that? If its a new or fresh rebuilt motor go with synthetic from the get go though.
I was told putting full syn in a engine that has had dino oil in it since new with high miles on it by now will kill it because the new syn will basically break down all the gunk that's plugging the leaks in bad seals. Is there anything to that? If its a new or fresh rebuilt motor go with synthetic from the get go though.
What full syn can do is yes break down all the gunk that's plugging the leaks in bad seals, and cause leaks that were otherwise not leaking due to the gunk. Some will even leak through a smaller gap faster than dino of the same weight listed on the bottle. Of course due to the nature of leaks in seals and gaskets, tolerances etc, each engine is kind of its own experiment. You get to decide if you think its worth it.
I actually put Rotella T6 5w40 in a Chevy 4.3 and in a Saturn 1.9, love that oil, it was great, ran it for about a year but they both began to seep oil from various points. The good thing is I went back to Castrol GTX high mileage "semi synthetic" and the leaks slowly ceased. Some people will tell you that cant happen too but it did. I do use that T6 in my ATV though and it loves it and doesn't leak.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 06-18-2018).]
Wow... you guys running 15w50 got guts. Seems like that is almost asking for trouble. That must be thick as honey. But hey, whatever you are comfortable with. Everyone has their own opinion about oil. I'd want to go as thin as possible and still maintain good pressure. 0 w 30 or even 0 w 20.
Wow... you guys running 15w50 got guts. Seems like that is almost asking for trouble. That must be thick as honey. But hey, whatever you are comfortable with. Everyone has their own opinion about oil. I'd want to go as thin as possible and still maintain good pressure. 0 w 30 or even 0 w 20.
Higher viscosity oil like 15W50 Mobil One, sticks to internal parts better and provides a far better cushion to the moving parts than 0W20 or 0W 30 oil. That's why race car driver use it. An engine will wear faster when it runs thin oil. OEM's recommend thin oil because it will give slightly better mileage, especially when you consider cold winter starts. Been running 15W 50 for the past seven years in my 3800SC swap and there have been zero issues. I run 0W20 in my Chrysler 300, only because of warranty issues.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I was told putting full syn in a engine that has had dino oil in it since new with high miles on it by now will kill it because the new syn will basically break down all the gunk that's plugging the leaks in bad seals. Is there anything to that? If its a new or fresh rebuilt motor go with synthetic from the get go though.
Generally if the oil kills the engine it was on it way anyhow.
The only real issue is that older engines are not sealed as well as today’s engines. The synthetic oil has a much smaller molecular make up than Dinio oils so it could leak a little more oil.
Generally it is not enough to be an issue and if it is then you really should fix it anyways.
Generally if the oil kills the engine it was on it way anyhow.
The only real issue is that older engines are not sealed as well as today’s engines. The synthetic oil has a much smaller molecular make up than Dinio oils so it could leak a little more oil.
Generally it is not enough to be an issue and if it is then you really should fix it anyways.
Just want to throw some word semantics out.. conventional oil, and syn oil.. neither are made from dinos decomposed plant matter. I agree with the above statement however.
Unless I missed it, no one has mentioned that petroleum oil will make a weak acid when mixed with condensed water that forms inside the engine. That acid, over time can damage metal parts, so changing petroleum oil is important. Synthetic is chemically different and does not form acid.
First off, Filters; Long ago, in the 60s and 70s, Fram was the 800 lb gorilla of filters...When I made a model, I always painted the filter orange, and if the kit came with a fram decal, I would put it on too.
Then Allied Signal, an Aerospace corp., bought Fram and the executives basically stated,"Hey, we have the name, cut costs! Cut the metal content of the shell!" So they thinned the canister, and numerous people, especially in amatuer racing applications, lost engines when the canisters ruptured......The take-away; Never trust a company after a merger.
I like ACDelco because they only sell one grade of filter......Usually with a magnet at the bottom to catch metal debris......Others I will use, Purolator Pure 1, and Wix......Fram does make a up-level filter, but I will never buy from them EVER, just on GPs.....
Oil; I use Chevron if I can get it...I have a 3.4 F-body in my 85 SE V6, and have had this engine since 1999...I always use regular dino oil, 10W-30 and add ZDDP- Now using a Lucas brand additive...I drive the crap out of it, cranking thru every on/off-ramp, and enjoy windy backroads any time I can find one that is in good shape.
Unless I missed it, no one has mentioned that petroleum oil will make a weak acid when mixed with condensed water that forms inside the engine. That acid, over time can damage metal parts, so changing petroleum oil is important. Synthetic is chemically different and does not form acid.
synthetics are still made from the same base oil as conventional. They are further refined and distilled and the such than conventional. Some synthetics are made from natural gas as well.
I use Castrol Syntec because my other cars use synthetic oil and Castrol is their recommended brand. Last time I was at GM dealership to buy a filter, I thought I would buy oil from them also. They handed me a 4 liter bottle of Castrol Syntec with the GM logo on the label.
I have, for the most part, always used the AC Delco (GM) filter. I read a study where they cut a filters open to see what was inside and the GM filters just had more filter material inside than most of the aftermarket ones. If you have the V6 motor, there are 2 filters that fit the 2.8V6. From the factory, the car came with the slightly smaller one. I use the higher capacity one.
I always use Castrol Syntec except in used cars I buy with an unknown history. What I was told years ago and still follow is not to use synthetics for the first fill in a new/rebuilt engine. The reasoning was synthetics are too efficient to allow any wear needed for proper break in. I run Valvoline dino in a fresh engine for the first 3000-5000 miles...then switch to synthetic. I also use Valvoline in the vehicles I dont put synthetic in. I do know of several people who put Mobile 1 synthetic in their older collector cars with some miles on them that quickly developed large leaks usually at front and rear main seals. I understood that Mobile 1 has some more aggressive solvents that disolve buildup that were keeping those older engines sealed. Prob not a problem if you only ever used Mobile 1 in it.
The best part of synthetic is its a lot more tolerant of heat. Ive had a couple of cars that held quite a bit more oil pressure hot after I put in synthetic. On another benefit, I only change synthetic between 5000 and 10000 miles. Never had any engine issues.
Higher viscosity oil like 15W50 Mobil One, sticks to internal parts better and provides a far better cushion to the moving parts than 0W20 or 0W 30 oil. That's why race car driver use it. An engine will wear faster when it runs thin oil. OEM's recommend thin oil because it will give slightly better mileage, especially when you consider cold winter starts. Been running 15W 50 for the past seven years in my 3800SC swap and there have been zero issues. I run 0W20 in my Chrysler 300, only because of warranty issues.
Not to cause any argument but I have never heard that a lower weight oil causing an engine to wear faster, that is actually opposite to what I have come to know. I have always worked under the impression that the lower the first number will give you a better cold start and less wear on the motor overall. Am I wrong in that assupmtion? I know this type of talk can get heated, I am just searching out information for myself.
Not to cause any argument but I have never heard that a lower weight oil causing an engine to wear faster, that is actually opposite to what I have come to know. I have always worked under the impression that the lower the first number will give you a better cold start and less wear on the motor overall. Am I wrong in that assupmtion? I know this type of talk can get heated, I am just searching out information for myself.
The first number is the viscosity of the oil when it's cold only, once the oil is to operating temp it's no longer valid.
Thicker oil does provide better 'cushioning' , but thinner oil may run thru galleries and lubed parts that thicker oil can be restricted. I know in at least 04, with the new generation Hemi (5.7 ) that had multi displacement...shutting off half the cylinders at highway speed...they needed thin oil to reactivate the lifters that were bypassed during that shutdown fast enough to be unnoticeable when accelerating. There was no lag with recommended oil, but obvious with thicker oil. In the old muscle car days when I street raced, I would use something like 20w50...and never broke an engine.
Great Video. The demo at the end shows why I would never use a 15w oil. Its just way too thick. Can you imagine trying to push that stuff up the little hole in the push rods??
[This message has been edited by edfiero (edited 06-21-2018).]
Thicker oil does provide better 'cushioning' , but thinner oil may run thru galleries and lubed parts that thicker oil can be restricted. I know in at least 04, with the new generation Hemi (5.7 ) that had multi displacement...shutting off half the cylinders at highway speed...they needed thin oil to reactivate the lifters that were bypassed during that shutdown fast enough to be unnoticeable when accelerating. There was no lag with recommended oil, but obvious with thicker oil. In the old muscle car days when I street raced, I would use something like 20w50...and never broke an engine.
Precisely why you need the right oil for the particular engine in question, in the particular environment in question, for the particular use it will be used for. This influences oil change schedule as well.
If you really really really want to know everything there is about oil including pressure and temperature tests of all the major types of oil (the results may surprise u) there is only one site to visit
I would always change the oil and filter together. Changing the filter without the oil just sounds like a pain. Get a filter that is designed to last as long as your oil change interval.
If only it was easier for me to get, my favorite oil for this car is Valvoline VR-1 10w30. Valvoline markets this version of their oil for racing, and that can make me feel silly buying it, but it's really the same as their normal oil just with higher ZDDP. It's a detergent oil with a normal operating life, and is perfectly healthy for a flat tappet pushrod street engine. The oil nerds at BITOG (who like to send oil samples off to be analyzed) will tell you it has the same content as "normal" conventional Valvoline, but with much more zinc/phosphorus (ZDDP) in it. This is the traditional antiwear additive that is important for flat tappets, but has been significantly reduced in modern mainstream oil.
Last I checked, VR-1 10w30 is labelled as meeting API SH spec (not officially certified). The 20w50 grade is certified API SN. The reason 10w30 is only labeled SH and 20w50 is SN is because of the phosphorus content (part of the ZDDP compound). It violates the modern limits, but that limit doesn't apply to Xw40 grades and above. They've also published a datasheet showing the phosphorus content and it's something like 1300ppm. At the time of the Fiero, this wasn't unusual. Nowadays I think it's more like 600-700ppm on most oil.
Unfortunately VR-1 10w30 isn't stocked in stores where I live. Sometimes I see 20w50. Sometimes I've mixed VR-1 with "regular" oil, resulting in a reasonable amount of ZDDP. The mix can also lower the viscosity (I wouldn't use straight 20w50 in a healthy engine). But if you're in a cold climate then this probably isn't as workable.
I used to like Quaker State Defy, especially the 10w40 version, because it also offered higher ZDDP than most oil and it was commonly available. But it seems to not be made anymore. As I recall the 10w30 version of it was rated API SL. That gave them some headroom on the phosphorus limit, and the SL rating was okay for marketing since it was being advertised for "high mileage" cars. I guess when their target market started wanting a rating newer than API SL, they decided to discontinue it.
A few months ago I looked at some oil analysis posts on the "bob is the oil guy" forum, and some of the oil marketed for diesels is still pretty high in ZDDP, but I don't remember which. Those might be the most readily available option as far as that issue is concerned. I still have a jug of QS Defy left before I need to look back into it.
When I had my 3.4 (flat tappets) I used Rotella T, 15W40, to get around the Zinc issue. Never had any problems with it. Still haven't heard of any, six years later. (The car is still "around".)
What does the Mobil One have in it that helps to offset the removal of the Zinc?
yeah, older engines need that zinc content ...I use valvoline racing oil..that has zinc content..and my v6 thanks me..of course, I use the best oil filter I can find. price is no object...compared to the monies spent in an total engine rebuild. one way or another, you will spend money on our beloved rides...question is HOW MUCH ? and I change my oil around every 3k....
Assuming the engine is already broken in, then I don't think having a low amount of zinc/phosphorus is going to cause an obvious catastrophic effect. However, I do believe that it can result in faster wear of the cam and lifters over time, since that's primarily what that component of the oil protects against. That gradual aging isn't going to be obvious to the owner, but it happens. It becomes an increasingly big issue if you have a modified engine build that's putting more stress at the lifters. It's too bad that converting to rollers isn't feasible on the 60V6. If I remember right, the later 2.5L 4cyls do have rollers, not sure what's involved in converting an older 2.5L to use that setup.
[This message has been edited by armos (edited 06-24-2018).]
decomposed plant matter. I agree with the above statement however.
