Ironically I just received an email from Dave who used to be on here as "Bloozberry" expressing his concerns. He agrees with my analogy of the structure failure but also provided photos of his Held Motorsport spindles. Now keep in mind, his were from Held while yours were from the new owner Arraut. Notice the difference in structural support:
Note the support gussets going all the way to the top and bottom ball joint cups:
Here is a front view. Notice the support on top:
They also added support to the steering arm and a LOT more welds:
Lee and all at Held Motorsports was the spot!.. so glad I bought during this ownership time. Especially after seeing this.... No issues with my 88 setup.. at least 16years on the car now 👍🏼... and lovin it.. recklessly 😜
Sucks to hear about the quality drop with the business transitions.. thanks for the post though... lookin out!
So I have a set of these drop spindles and am concerned about the safety of mine. I've had the car up to 120 and surely don't want this to happen to mine. What do you think we should do about this?
So I have a set of these drop spindles and am concerned about the safety of mine. I've had the car up to 120 and surely don't want this to happen to mine. What do you think we should do about this?
It might be a good idea to periodically inspect for cracks at the welds.
I purchased a set of 1 1/2" drop spindles from Lee at Held in 2003. They looked like the black set in the pictures above but I don't think had that much bracing. After installing them, I was doing some figure eights in a very large empty parking lot at night and one broke. Sent pictures to Lee and he said the welder left the braces off! I told him I wanted heavier bracing and we talked back & forth a few times while he was making the replacements. I received a new set that looked like the silver ones in the pictures above. Much stronger. He agreed they should have been made sturdier & said they would make them all that way now. Couldn't have been better to work with. I'm amazed Arraut went back to making them the original way. That borders on criminal.
Five years later, after doing a 3800 SC, I bought the Sport front suspension, 13" front & rear brake kit and Bunp steer kit. I'm the friend Blacktree worked with on the installation. Mike really knows his stuff and I respect his views. I haven't had a problem since and have been very happy with the kits.
------------------ 87 GT Maroon 3800SC 98 Mercedes CL600 V-12 2013 Ford Flex, twin turbo V6 365 hp
I finally got around to pulling out one of the drop spindles I bought from Arraut and it looks like the silver example with the extra bracing, which was a relieve. I've never had any issues with Arraut myself and I bought a couple different sets of rear coilovers for my 88s along with the one set of drop spindles I had intended to buy 1 more set of the drop spindles from them when I found out they had closed their doors, I know others have had issues, but I never did. Not sure if they had improved before I started dealing with them or I was just lucky or others were just unlucky, who to say.
Looking at those parts I'd never drive a car with a set of those on the track, for the street and show they seem ok. Spindles take a lot of stress. I don;t think they heat threat them after all that welding either. I'd be checking them periodically.
Correctly engineered (meaning right base metal and filler rod selection) welds in low carbon steel do not need to be heat treated.
High carbon steel or aluminum on the other hand...
That being said, there are some no-nos that I see on all the spindles pictured in this thread, and that is overlapping weld beads, as the overlap area is under residual tensile stress in at least two different directions and can more easily nucleate a fatigue crack.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-12-2020).]
It's always a shame when critical images (hosted who knows where) in a thread disappear. As much as PIP was a nuisance to use, at least the posted images were permanent. Hopefully everyone who posts images from now on uses the quick painless Upload Image feature that Cliff has recently implemented.
That spindle breakage undoubtedly caused damage. That's what happens when you replace forged steel with sheet metal. This Arrault company should have been sued for selling a dangerous product like this
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
This was the video from the original post. The spindle broke but the wheel tucked up into the fender. The parts in question were when Arraut took over from Held Motorsports. The picture I posted on the first page was given to me by Dave (Bloozberry) and shows the quality of the Held spindle with the proper gussets installed for added strength. The missing pictures had the OP's spindle and it snapped right where Arraut cheaped out and did NOT add gussets.
This was the video from the original post. The spindle broke but the wheel tucked up into the fender. The parts in question were when Arraut took over from Held Motorsports. The picture I posted on the first page was given to me by Dave (Bloozberry) and shows the quality of the Held spindle with the proper gussets installed for added strength. The missing pictures had the OP's spindle and it snapped right where Arraut cheaped out and did NOT add gussets.
No problem but I'll tell you my opinion as well as Daves, notice on Daves spindle from Held, the weld seam is on the outside where all of the structural welding and gussets are. On the spindle that broke, there is no seam to the outside which leads us to believe that they welded the parts with the seam inside towards the car. That would mean that the seam had no support and could easily split open under stress. In this pic, here's where I THINK the seam is located under the powdercoating:
Hey All,.. Thanks for continuing to follow this post!
Not sure if you all have been following our 24 Hours of Lemons Racing saga or not,... but last year (March 2019) in New Orleans we had yet another catastrophic Arraut suspension failure. This time it was the rear suspension. The heim joints Arraut used for their rear bump steer kit broke causing the car to crash at speed while on track, which completely destroyed part of the F40 kit, rear suspension, a rear wheel, the windshield, the rear sway bar, and my wallet. Thankfully the driver was not injured!
At that time, I saw no use in beating a dead horse. Therefore, I never posted anything about another Arraut suspenion failure on any of the forums. (Not really anything or anybody can do about it now!)
Arraut had already burned me good on the extremely poor quality of their front suspension kit,.. I never thought lighting would strike twice in the same place, so we never even bothered to check the rear bump steer kits. Apparently, Arraut used cheap pot-metal style heim joints for these kits. They should have used chrome-moly heim joints like in offroad cars/jeeps. These weak/cheap heim joints failed under load & completely snapped.
NOTE: If you have an Arraut Bump-Steer kit,... PLEASE check all your heim joints!!!
Unfortunately, we were in such a hurry to get the car built and on track that we never thought to double-check their work. (Especially since they touted the HELD brand name & HELD designs)
Not sure what's next for the F40. The car is still in the process of being repaired, but my experience with Arraut has completely soured me on the whole thing. We'll be removing ALL of the Arraut parts from the F40 build & working on an alternative solution.
Here are some before & after pics of the F40 at NOLA in March 2019:
At that time, I saw no use in beating a dead horse. Therefore, I never posted anything about another Arraut suspenion failure on any of the forums.
We like to keep safety issues active on here. Believe me, your situation will be discussed many more times over the years. Too bad Arraut aren't around anymore so you could sue the crap out of them. What a shithole company they became after Held sold. Glad everyone involved is ok......well, except your wallet
[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 05-13-2020).]
I made my own bumpsteer bracket. Here is the thread https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/134732.html .Some of the photos got PB trashed but if you want more details visit my thread in the construction zone. I had a Ryane bumpsteer (predecessor to Held) bracket on my car but did not like it. Too heavy and yes it solved bump steer but there were clearance issues with my swap and I found the ride harsh. Weld and component parts quality was good though.
I did not have my car on a track with the Ryane kit but I have tracked the car and put many miles on my home made bracket. No problems at all, and a big weight savings over the Ryane/Held/Arraut kit.
------------------ 86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo rear SLA suspension QA1 coilovers on tube arms
Using a single rod end in that orientation to resist acceleration, braking, and impact loads from road irregularities is a very, very bad idea... Cheap rod ends or not, the typical design load for the rod end in that orientation is only 10 to 15% of the normal load rating when used in the proper orientation.
The 88's get away with the rod end in that orientation on the lateral links because they only handle lateral loads (which keeps the rod ends properly loaded). All acceleration, braking and road harshness impact loads are carried by the trailing link (which is best to be keep with rubber bushings).
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-13-2020).]
Hey All,.. Thanks for continuing to follow this post!
Not sure if you all have been following our 24 Hours of Lemons Racing saga or not,... but last year (March 2019) in New Orleans we had yet another catastrophic Arraut suspension failure. This time it was the rear suspension. The heim joints Arraut used for their rear bump steer kit broke causing the car to crash at speed while on track, which completely destroyed part of the F40 kit, rear suspension, a rear wheel, the windshield, the rear sway bar, and my wallet. Thankfully the driver was not injured! ....
I know of someone else who experienced a similar failure of this kit. I am NOT certain who the vendor of the kit was (meaning which generation it was) or when it was installed. Perhaps mrfiero or fierotech would like to weigh in. All three of us were there. They were riding in the car. I was bringing up the rear.
I know zero about the 88 rear suspension but wouldn't it be safer to have the piece with the blue arrow in solid steel and have a camber bolt where the green arrow is for adjustment....or does that not provide enough adjustment?
I know zero about the 88 rear suspension but wouldn't it be safer to have the piece with the blue arrow in solid steel and have a camber bolt where the green arrow is for adjustment....or does that not provide enough adjustment?
That link is fine for the loads is sees. Not much of fan of using the clevis end attachment to the arm (difficult to keep tight, any movement will wear the bolt and holes, small diameter bolt).
The single rod end off the lower a-arm that is a much larger issue. I see it happen all the time, but rod ends should not be loaded with a bending moment about the threaded shank (the threaded shank should be in compression or tension), and you definitely never load the center ball in a direction that isn't supported by the loop around the head. This setup basically spends its entire service life trying to push the ball through the compressed lip that retains the ball inside the rod end. This is why the recommended load in this direction is 85% to 90% less than the normal rating of the rod end.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-14-2020).]
The single rod end off the lower a-arm that is a much larger issue. I see it happen all the time, but rod ends should not be loaded with a bending moment about the threaded shank (the threaded shank should be in compression or tension), and you definitely never load the center ball in a direction that isn't supported by the loop around the head. This setup basically spends its entire service life trying to push the ball through the compressed lip that retains the ball inside the rod end. This is why the recommended load in this direction is 85% to 90% less than the normal rating of the rod end.
Exactly. This is just a dumb design and was from the very beginning.
I've told my stories over and over, you will never hear me talk up AMS, they were just idiots. I know that when I was having my issues with them I called and talked to one of the brothers, he told me that my dropped spindles (third set) were going to be delayed, because they were "between welders". It took a few more weeks to arrive and when this last set did you could tell they were made by two different shops. Put side by side they looked different. Even the metal used was different. The caliper brackets were welded on at different angles, the tube used for the upper/lower BJ were different and the powdercoat was off. They had ZERO quality control, and I believe that they just bought the rights to the stuff from HELD and started to pump it out, no idea what they were selling. They couldn't even get the correct parts into the box that they sent out. How basic is that, put the correct parts into the box before you ship it.... nope.
Bottom line - Under Arraut, these products are not meant for racing, they are meant for show cars. You got the race car look, but that"s it, the look, not the performance.
Rob
PS - every time I read and respond to an Arraut thread my blood boils and I get so pissed off.
