After seeing all of the threads of people losing their cars, especially TXGOOD's, I decided to share this with the forum. Unfortunately I seem to be attracted to vehicles that burst into flames. I had a buddy help me replace all of the fuel lines in my Volkswagen Westfalia not long ago. These CamperVans are also rear engine, and like I said are prone to fuel line failure, causing them to be fire prone. Mine was leaking fuel onto the driveway when I tried to start it.
We talked about his setup, and he shared this with me. He has a BlazeCut system, that is a hose filled with extinguisher material. When a flame reaches it and melts through it, it sprays the material, hopefully dousing the fire, and preventing it from reaching outside of the engine compartment. I don't know how well it works or whether it would work for us or not, but I thought if anyone is a bit paranoid about this, it could be an extra safety feature. Here is a link to one of the places selling it to the Vanagon community...
I don't know how the Westfalia is set up, but a common fire problem on the Bug was that the carb was set low to the tank and if the diaphragm on the fuel pump leaked, it would flood through the vacuum dashpot line and get into the distributor. That was the reason for the loop in the line that extended above the carb. Many peeps removed or shortened that line, often resulting in fires.
[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 02-10-2018).]
I don't know how the Westfalia is set up, but a common fire problem on the Bug was that the carb was set low to the tank and if the diaphragm on the fuel pump leaked, it would flood the carb. That was the reason for the loop in the fuel line that extended above the carb. Many peeps removed or shortened that line, often resulting in fires.
In the Vanagon, they have a rubber fuel hose going through a hole in the firewall, with no grommet. The fuel line would become brittle over time, and then break, spraying fuel everywhere. The replacement kit is still rubber lines, but there's a grommet to prevent it from rubbing against the metal. We replaced every line from the tank all the way to the injectors, as well as the pump and filter.
[This message has been edited by PARAD0X (edited 02-10-2018).]
I edited my post. I meant to say through the vacuum dashpot. But the Bug had a metal line that I think also transitioned to a rubber line somewhere around the area of the fan shroud. I do believe it had a grommet, though. It's been so long. Early to late 80's since I built a VW engine. I do remember that the in-shroud oil cooler or seals could also spring a leak, blowing oil onto the left cylinder bank. At least with that, you got a big smoke cloud as an early warning.
Cool, but it only lasts about a second. If the fire is not completely extinguished by the initial blast, then it will flare back up...
I think I would prefer to buy a handheld Halotron extinguisher.
True but it comes in varying sizes, can be put it multiple locations, and works even when you’re not around, or when you’re driving potentially. I’d say it’s a valuable form of insurance given how easily our cars get consumed if a fire does break out. I’m not saying this over an extinguisher, but it definitely looks like a viable option.
[This message has been edited by PARAD0X (edited 02-11-2018).]
Fi-Eros?! This is a Fiero site...? Why, I thought it was a forum for people who make pennies with Ferrous oxide! I guess I'm going to have to always wear my glasses.......
I agree that when a fire is not out can/will simple grow again and fast. Most Vehicle Engine bays are not closed spaces and Halon 1211/1301, CO2, etc, often quickly dissipates. Fire out might not matter w/ vapor type fires... Oil/fuel on hot parts can still release fumes and reignite at any time when they get air again.
BlazeCut seems to be a nice idea and May work as advertise but you should want more data than link above... Many vendors will sell anything and have no clue or worse don't care if it's safe etc.
Above link wants $135.00 for the small one... blazecutusa faq:
quote
Q: How long does it last? BlazeCut is a single use product thats lasts up to 10 years depending on application and environment.
In an Engine bay expose to high heat and chemicals is likely less. Heat, Gas fumes, strong solvents, and more is likely not good for long life. Fiero V6 have more exhaust pipes to heat/melt the unit too. Just look at plugs and wires on many cars not just Fiero over 5-10 years... If you work on the engine then likely won't last long when you bump/hit/etc it trying to remove/replace a bad part.
While Chemours (This crap Name is short for Chemicals and E. I. du Pont de Nemours, Recently Spun-off of DuPont Co) FE-36 extinguishing agent (Also sold as Suva® 236fa refrigerant.) is made to replace Halon 1211, anything made as a final fire extinguisher/suppressor product should have UL or equivalent minimum testing in the U.S. UL® and Number label mean product is tested by them and actually works for the application. (I think is ANSI/UL 2129 for this type.) Most or All Fire control devices for Boats in the US needs USCG approval.
On this page http://blazecut.com/certificates/ (Is T series) Only list CE etc from Europe Czeck and Slovak. Those certs often don't = UL in the US for Insurance and other reasons. (Many UK/EU "tumble dryers" (laundry driers) and other appliances w/ CE marks have cause many fires including Grenfell tower fire last year.) www.blazecutusa.com simply says... nothing.
Why this matters? Examples: Many insurance co's can/will void the policy if whatever is involve in a fire and never have a UL label etc. If/when your boat is inspected by USCG you can fail and get fines etc. If you install it in a Building may fail Building/Fire Code inspections w/o proper labels. (This is sold as fire suppressors for electrical boxes etc.)
I would get Ansul etc w/ same compound but have correct UL etc ratings. Example: pmbrunelle mention Halotron above... "All units are manufactured to ANSI/UL 2129 and ANSI/UL 711 Standards." and 5lb units and bigger are USCG Approved too. (Maybe only Brass valve units.) www.firetechextinguisher.co...on-fire-extinguisher Most Dry Chem types are label w/ UL 299 and UL 711. (Even the Tiny "First Alert" extinguisher in my Kitchen is so.) UL 711 is "Standard for Rating and Fire Testing of Fire Extinguishers." Other #s are the agents used in them. Some examples at http://www.socalfireservice...tection-service.html
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I’m still thinking that even if this gives you an extra 30-60 seconds to react then it’s worth it. There are more demo videos on YouTube. I’m going to get the 12’ for my car, just as an added level of protection.
[This message has been edited by PARAD0X (edited 02-11-2018).]
I own a boat......And there are several types of fire suppression systems designed for marine use....I believe Fireboy makes a system that is Automatic/Manual for 25 cubic feet.....That would suppress the crap out of anything under the hood....possibly you could run a few 1" pipes from the main nozzle to the front compartment and underside to direct suppressant to fires in other areas.....
The nice thing with the auto/manual system is you can set it up so a hot exhaust manifold does NOT set the system off, but can be sure of actuation if you notice an actual fire....
I am considering installing systems on both my jet boat and my (Not a jet)Fiero...
"This kit installs easily under the engine compartment lid in your Vanagon. It works automatically (no power source and no wires). The tube contains an FE-36 extinguishing agent—when the tubing melts at 248F degrees, it sprays the engine bay with this extinguishing agent, starving the fire of oxygen."
My question would be where specifically do you put this hose, dont some places under the hood probably reach 248, without being on fire?
In my case I had an extinquisher and thought it was out but some Dynamat that was shredded on the edges caught fire and it was not the face but the material sandwiched between the outer layers. In my car the trunk was cut out and I had made a trunk with some plywood covered with sheet metal and in the back between the trunk piece and the back metal part of the car there was only about an inch and a half, thus the extinguisher would not get all the way up there. I tried to pull the dynamat out but couldn`t plus burned my hand because that layer in between the outer layers is like tar when burning. It went fast. It`s a ***** when you have to sit there and watch your pride and joy burn up waiting for the firetruck to get there.
In my case I had an extinquisher and thought it was out but some Dynamat that was shredded on the edges caught fire and it was not the face but the material sandwiched between the outer layers. In my car the trunk was cut out and I had made a trunk with some plywood covered with sheet metal and in the back between the trunk piece and the back metal part of the car there was only about an inch and a half, thus the extinguisher would not get all the way up there. I tried to pull the dynamat out but couldn`t plus burned my hand because that layer in between the outer layers is like tar when burning. It went fast. It`s a ***** when you have to sit there and watch your pride and joy burn up waiting for the firetruck to get there.
Yeah man the images of your car have haunted me. I immediately thought of you when I saw this. I swear I'm going to bubble wrap my car in this stuff, use it for my dyna mat, and make seats out of it if it will make any difference.
Originally posted by 2.5: "This kit installs easily under the engine compartment lid in your Vanagon. It works automatically (no power source and no wires). The tube contains an FE-36 extinguishing agent—when the tubing melts at 248F degrees, it sprays the engine bay with this extinguishing agent, starving the fire of oxygen."
My question would be where specifically do you put this hose, dont some places under the hood probably reach 248, without being on fire?
Yes like anything close to exhaust pipes etc. Fiero V6 has enough problems w/ exhaust parts heating the distrib, alt, etc, even w/ heat shields on them but l4 isn't immune to exhaust problems. Worse when same exhaust parts break... V6 and L4 exhaust manifolds are well known for breaking in Fiero and all others w/ same engines. Fiero Starters get heat from pipe/manifold above and more heat from the cat and pipe below. Cat normal op temp are 600-1500°F.
In slow/dead traffic the engine bay can get hotter because little to no air flow forcing/sucking heat out of the area. And that's not just a Fiero problem.
So If you get this or something else w/ auto spay you need to mount it to prevent exhaust heating the system.
Some boat/race systems (any type of agent) work w/ 1 temp "sensor" and X nozzles but rest is not in the engine bay. (Most temp release are set at higher °F to prevent false release.) Many piped systems are manual release only. Both Sim to Restaurants systems w/ tank(s) and manual release(s) far away from stoves etc.
That would actually be helpful to measure the temps from various points in the engine bay. Both at idle and while driving. I’d think it would help even outside this conversation.
I actually was impressed with that video.....It seems to work well...at putting out the flame. But what about false triggering...especially after aging in a hot engine compartment? It doesn't seem to do much damage...maybe someone could test one of the small tubes...attach it to the decklid, away from the hot exhaust.
On another subject (But related) how about a thin but large diameter electric fan under the engine-compartment vents, so that when you are in stop-&-go traffic, you can turn the fan on and cool the engine bay down? Just a crazy idea.......
Originally posted by PARAD0X: That would actually be helpful to measure the temps from various points in the engine bay. Both at idle and while driving. I’d think it would help even outside this conversation.
I had a cave section for bay heat years ago until I tested this and why I call most "Fiero is hotter then others" and similar BS ever since.
I have IR, Thermocouples, etc, but I see little point testing now because most will still believe same crap myths. Like most people repeating saying BS from old Trade Rags and other "experts" that claim "Fiero has horrible Bump Steer." Worse buy high $ "kits" to "help" then finding out most causes more problems.
Testing eats Time, often a lot of Time, at minimum. You want Idle and Driving? Likely at different speeds too? Then eats Money as well. Multiple test points? Is more Time and Money. If you set then reset a thermocouple at different test points eats a lot of time. If you runs several thermocouples then need data capture equipment most people do not have. Most don't have meter that stores output from 1 TC just "dump" meters you need video to store data other than mim/max. Then you need a reference FWD w/ same engine to "show what's normal" etc.
But on same line, you don't need to test areas near to exhaust parts to know can melt a lot of things. If they leak Very quickly too. Again l4 and V6 exhaust manifolds for Fiero and others are very well know for leaks and even breaking. Heat shields helps the starter etc a lot but only so far. Many people remove or lost them and wonder why they replace starters etc. Even w/ shields insulation etc on AC hoses and wires in the engine bay near the exhaust can/will have problems. Cooked plug wires/boots are common for many engines not just Fiero.
Originally posted by cvxjet: I actually was impressed with that video.....It seems to work well...at putting out the flame. But what about false triggering...especially after aging in a hot engine compartment? It doesn't seem to do much damage...maybe someone could test one of the small tubes...attach it to the decklid, away from the hot exhaust.
On another subject (But related) how about a thin but large diameter electric fan under the engine-compartment vents, so that when you are in stop-&-go traffic, you can turn the fan on and cool the engine bay down? Just a crazy idea.......
"halon" types does not damage most things. If false sprays on the highway then the engine can stop w/o warning and maybe hard to start for a while. In high speed traffic that can be bad to fatal. (more so in other cars w/ power steering dies when engine stops.) Fiero and others have OE cool air intake but often leaks and inhales halon. Might inhale even w/o leaks depending on many factors like Many people remove OE air parts for several reasons.
for most vent fans won't matter. Worse when off can block normal airflow. 85-87 V6 have a extra fan but only runs w/ rad fan. Blows cooler air to the alt and HEI parts. For 88, GM dump it and change to CS130 alt that runs cooler then SI types.
Originally posted by theogre: Testing eats Time, often a lot of Time, at minimum. You want Idle and Driving? Likely at different speeds too? Then eats Money as well. Multiple test points? Is more Time and Money. If you set then reset a thermocouple at different test points eats a lot of time. If you runs several thermocouples then need data capture equipment most people do not have. Most don't have meter that stores output from 1 TC just "dump" meters you need video to store data other than mim/max.
I saw a pre-production test vehicle last year, and it had self-adhesive thermometers (perhaps a dozen) placed all over the engine bay. They were flat; kind of like the bargraph thermometers on aquariums with heat-sensitive ink.
It seems to me like a test driver could be instructed to stop the vehicle and (manually, on a paper) record the temperatures every half hour or so.
PARADOX could probably do this at a reasonable cost.
