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Soooooo What are the issues with the clear sail panels? by kgoodyear
Started on: 01-27-2018 09:27 AM
Replies: 12 (500 views)
Last post by: Mickey_Moose on 01-29-2018 02:32 PM
kgoodyear
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Report this Post01-27-2018 09:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for kgoodyearClick Here to Email kgoodyearSend a Private Message to kgoodyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
On another thread several Frugal Fiero Friends have mentioned problems with the clear rear panel sail. My interest is piqued. Since mine have been replaced with scoops I don't fully understand what is going on. Can someone please explain?



I remember removing mine for the scoops and seem to remember they didn't shatter like a window.

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Report this Post01-27-2018 10:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The biggest complaint that I see is directed at the aftermarket windows that are available. The OEM quarter windows had a complex curve. Curved top to bottom and curved front to back. Aftermarket windows tend to be more flat, or having only the front to rear curve.

Another problem is that some of them are printed with the wrong coating. I hesitate to say ink because some seem to be using various paints. The inappropriate coating doesn't bite into the acrylic and will eventually delaminate from the window, allowing it to come loose from the body. BBQ Grill paint, latex, enamel and many other coatings will damage the substrate or not properly bond.

You seem to be experienced enough to know that plexiglas (acrylic) requires an acrylic ink that will bond well to the substrate. It must etch into the surface and essentially become an integral part of the substrate, but dry fast enough that it doesn't damage the substrate.

Polycarbonate is best printed with a catalyzed polyester ink.

Correct dot matrix is an important feature with many who are replacing their quarter windows. To me, that's a minor issue if the window won't stay on the car.
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madisonm55
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Report this Post01-27-2018 10:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for madisonm55Click Here to Email madisonm55Send a Private Message to madisonm55Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The aftermarket windows, or at least mine and many others, have about a fist sized dimple in the middle that throws off the smooth look. You can find some pictures floating around somehwere
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kgoodyear
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Report this Post01-27-2018 10:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for kgoodyearClick Here to Email kgoodyearSend a Private Message to kgoodyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:

The biggest complaint that I see is directed at the aftermarket windows that are available. The OEM quarter windows had a complex curve. Curved top to bottom and curved front to back. Aftermarket windows tend to be more flat, or having only the front to rear curve.

Another problem is that some of them are printed with the wrong coating. I hesitate to say ink because some seem to be using various paints. The inappropriate coating doesn't bite into the acrylic and will eventually delaminate from the window, allowing it to come loose from the body. BBQ Grill paint, latex, enamel and many other coatings will damage the substrate or not properly bond.

You seem to be experienced enough to know that plexiglas (acrylic) requires an acrylic ink that will bond well to the substrate. It must etch into the surface and essentially become an integral part of the substrate, but dry fast enough that it doesn't damage the substrate.

Polycarbonate is best printed with a catalyzed polyester ink.

Correct dot matrix is an important feature with many who are replacing their quarter windows. To me, that's a minor issue if the window won't stay on the car.


So, these panels work but probably do not have the correct curves or decoration?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/86...6?fits=Model%3AFiero

[This message has been edited by kgoodyear (edited 01-27-2018).]

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IMSA GT
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Report this Post01-27-2018 11:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTClick Here to Email IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Personally, I would stay away from the reproduction of these. Chris Cook sells his on Ebay ( I think your link is to his store ) and people seem to be happy with them. I would focus on the aftermarket much like your picture. If you scan through this forum there are a ton of people asking for that very sail panel. If I had the tooling, I would rather see a one piece, solid black acrylic panel like you have in your picture. No window, just a solid panel with formed solid scoop or just a solid window.

To do a true reproduction of the factory sails, I almost guarantee you will not get to a profit stage. You will simply be doing a favor to the community but lose money doing so. Many have tried and after doing the math, they realized the same outcome. The other issue is the black screen print or whatever method they applied the flat black. Too many people have had repros where the black comes off the window and stays attached to the car while the window flies down the highway. Then they argue about replacements for free. In my opinion, too many headaches for you.

[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 01-27-2018).]

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Report this Post01-27-2018 11:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tsharkSend a Private Message to tsharkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Correct. They are the best currently available, but lack the proper curves. The front curve is difficult. Quality, fitment, and customer service are hit and miss.

The decoration is close, but as fierfool said, whatever was used for the decoration doesn't always adhere to the window.

I'd love to have a good set, but my current set is--ahem!--not in need of replacement at this time.

Just FYI, TFS carries these same quarter windows.
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fierofool
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Report this Post01-27-2018 11:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've installed 2 sets of his windows. The first set has been on the car for probably about 7 or 8 years, now. In my opinion, and I've compared them to another vendor's windows, In my opinion Chris's windows are the best currently available, even though they don't have both curves. I've spoken with him personally and he assured me that he was using the correct ink to print the background. That was the first aftermarket pair I installed.

The second set, I bought from a 3rd party vendor who was reselling windows that are commonly sold by another vendor. They were of very poor quality. The black background was very soft. Only the dot matrix and GT logo were actually screen printed. Then for the large black background, the coating was either sprayed or rolled onto the substrate. A light scratch with the thumbnail would easily remove the black background. That told me that the wrong coating was used. I speak from more than 30 years of experience in the screen, offset, and, letter press and web press field, with my major focus in the screen printing field. I printed many tons of acrylic and polycarbonate sheets. I also owned my own lighted sign company.

In this photo, you can see at the right how the background peeled off without showing any sign of bonding to the substrate. At the left, you can also see a demarcation line in the black background. This tells me that the dot matrix was printed, then masked off and the solid background was then sprayed or rolled on using a different coating. Screen printing ink dries too fast for spraying or rolling.


This is another area of a window that was already on the second car. They were replaced with gtfiero's windows because these were coming loose from the car.



One of the processes where I think some of the vendors who attempt to make the windows are going wrong is that they're attempting to print a finished size piece. This cannot be done with the screen printing method for this product. The screen printing process cannot print all the way to the edge of it's substrate. The substrate must be oversize, with the print extending beyond the limits of the finished piece. Then the piece must be trimmed down to size.

I also think they're trying to produce the windows after the front rolled edge has been formed. Again, screen printing cannot print on a curved surface of this nature. The piece must be printed in the flat, then vacuum or heat formed afterward. I believe that to be the reason that a different coating was used on the solid background. The proper acrylic or polyester ink will withstand vacuum and heat forming.

[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 01-27-2018).]

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kgoodyear
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Report this Post01-27-2018 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kgoodyearClick Here to Email kgoodyearSend a Private Message to kgoodyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This is all great feedback.

Thank you.

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post01-28-2018 02:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The link above to eBay are the windows that Chris Cook produces. I purchased a set some years back, and they did not fit correctly. First, they are pretty much flat. Factory windows are curved from front to rear, and top to bottom.

As for the size, I measured around 10 different windows on cars at Daytona, and found that my windows were about 1" smaller than everyone else's. I contacted him, and his response was that I was installing them wrong. We went back and forth, and I offered to purchase another set at a discount. He stopped replying to me completely, with his last communication being that there was nothing wrong with the windows I received.

Around a month later, I had the opportunity to lay the windows I purchased on top of another set of quarter windows, also made by Chris COok, and sure enough my windows were about 1" too short from top to bottom. Just horrible customer service to say the least. There is an entire thread about the debacle here.

You can see the lack of quality control in the image below. 2 windows from Chris, and totally different cut out areas, and one set almost an inch short. Sure, mistakes happen, but to deny it, blame the customer, and eventually ignore all correspondence is not the way to do business.


Another valiant attempt to make the windows with the correct curves was taken on by pokeyfiero. He actually went as far as to make the molds from factory windows, and made a few sets that had all the factory curves. Problems ensued, and unfortunately that is pretty much dead. You can read about the progression of his attempt in his thread.

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 01-28-2018).]

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RAREW66
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Report this Post01-28-2018 02:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RAREW66Click Here to visit RAREW66's HomePageClick Here to Email RAREW66Send a Private Message to RAREW66Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
kgoodyear, sent you PM.

Thanks,
Fred
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JohnWPB
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Report this Post01-28-2018 11:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RAREW66:

kgoodyear, sent you PM.

Thanks,
Fred


kgoodyear, My suggestions is to check your PM's, my bet it contains something very interesting for sure!

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Report this Post01-29-2018 08:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Thunderstruck GTSend a Private Message to Thunderstruck GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What I have seen from repops of the past is that no one ever seems to make an effort to get the green tinting correct if they use it at all. That to me is a dead giveaway, especially on a bright sunny day.
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Mickey_Moose
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Report this Post01-29-2018 02:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mickey_MooseClick Here to visit Mickey_Moose's HomePageClick Here to Email Mickey_MooseSend a Private Message to Mickey_MooseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My issues with past repro windows:

1) not the correct curves (as mentioned above).
2) incorrect artwork (no dot matrix, GT lettering not positioned correctly).
3) peeling (as mentioned).
4) edges not rounded/polish - left raw from cutting.
5) notch missing on the lower front edge.

Cheers,
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