quote Originally posted by hyperv6: GM could build a supercar to challange the others but Why? .

Exactly, they should build one that sells.

You could do an entire video on John Delorean's impact on the Fiero development cycle. I'm guessing 99.9% of the folks outside of the Fiero world know about that.

------------------
-Chris
'85 V6 SE 4sp (SOLD)
'88 GT - Series 3 SC3800 w/ 3.5" pulley, 1.8" rockers, 3" exhaust, 3.5" intake, 3.29 gearing. Installed and tuned by Sinister Performance
'99 Kawasaki Vulcan 500, owned since new
'09 G37x Sedan w/ Premium & Nav (wife's car)
'14 Yamaha FJR - 0-60 in 2.8s w/ 34MPG!!!

quote Originally posted by Chris_narf: You could do an entire video on John Delorean's impact on the Fiero development cycle. I'm guessing 99.9% of the folks outside of the Fiero world know about that.

You mean don't know right?

-Van

There is an interesting fact to the whole Supercar/Performance car story; You look at Ford/GM and Porsche, who sell in relative volume, vs Lambo, Aston Martin, Maserati, Alfa, etc....All the companies that go for high price/exclusiveness go broke.......Selling to rich people just doesn't have much profit in it....Selling a bunch of inexpensive cars to the masses is the way to real profits.....

But there is something to be said for a fancy car in the show-room to attract traffic......Interestingly, the Fiero built traffic and yet was inexpensive!

Absolutely, the Fiero was the showroom sports car to help bring the folks to Pontiac, and the Mera even more so for bigger dealers.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Exactly, they should build one that sells.

Hey are now with the ZR1 as it will do 0-60 in 2 seconds. When the numbers arrive in January you will be amazed.
The C8 will have a 850 HP version and very well will get AWD at some point.

There was a interesting interview with a Tadge from the Vette team. He stated that they looked at AWD in the ZR1 but would not fit. This tells us the C8 they will make it fit. Also he said the new car will top the Cerv II in performance and it did 0-60 in 2.8.

But I expect the prices for the C8 will be $70k to $180 k.

Chevy is doing the right thing doing a car like this vs doing a million dollar car.

Note the Vette team has also reported to have made over 1000 HP in testing. This may be where this is going.

Hyper....stop making so much sense! Geeezzzz!

I am leary of the mid-engine C8 because of the problem of price......I like that the Vette has been the "Affordable supercar" for it's whole life...But where will the price go for the C8....?

Not that I am against a mid-engine vette, exactly....By far, my favorite concept car of all time was the Aerovette...I actually have a model of it- but it's in that funky 1/25 scale....Haven't built the model because I am too busy working on the car I can FIT in!

So many ideas flying around in this reply.

quote Originally posted by cvxjet: I think the new Vette (C7) has a very nice interior- even if they have installed one of those dumb-a** touch-screens....Most of the new GM cars are getting much better interiors....Go check out some of them....(And yes, most GM cars from a decade ago had interiors by "Rubbermaid"...which was pathetic)

Looks nice is a matter of point of view. I think the C7 interior although better than the C6 still feels cheap inside. It's not only about the look it's also about how it's put together, materials etc. Apart from the visible current tech on display, it still gives me that feeling of a 90's Supra inside. Not talking about looks only. It doesn't feel any more special than the Camaro for example. This is exactly the problem and why the Corvette has image problems. The old NSX has the same problem. It never felt that much better than a Civic or Accord inside. Supercars and high end sports cars need to be special. This is why the Corvette is neither.

quote Originally posted by cvxjet: You buy a performance car for.....PERFORMANCE!

Who said you can't have both? The PERFORMANCE and THE INTERIOR? Just because a car is a performance car it doesn't mean it has to be cheaply made and cheap inside. Externally as well as internally, it can still be nicely put together, with a nice interior that is a pleasing place to be while you are using that performance, with an exterior of high quality craftsmanship and something that gives you pleasure to look at . Corvette fans have been using this explnation for years, as if performance can't come with the good stuff too. If you are going to play that card then do it right and go all out like the F40. Then go true Spartan. Otherwise what it actually is behind it all is just a cheap car made cheaply. I'm not buying a track car. I'm buying a road car. I want it to be well put together, have high quality and not feel cheap. If I can't afford that then fine. But I will not criticize just because I can't afford it.

And nobody is talking about Bentley levels of luxury. The interior of high end sports cars are not that luxurious.

Besides all that, it's clear that there a plenty of people who will pay top dollar for it. So acting like it's not important hardly changes anything.

quote Originally posted by cvxjet:And the Vette gives you $2-400,000 performance for $6-90,000......

Well, that's debatable. It depends how you define performance. I'm sure you can make an old Regal grand national go as fast in a 1/4 mile for example. But I think performance is more than just how fast. You absolutely can't compare the experience of driving a C7 to that of driving for example a Ferrari.

quote Originally posted by cvxjet:And the technology they use is more innovative than almost anyones; Plastic leaf springs, magnetorheological shocks, Ceramic brake discs- All GM innovations which out-perform what Ferrari, McLaren and Porsche came up with on their own. (They are all now using most of that tech- bought from GM!)

That sounds like GM alright. They have always pioneered tech, only to watch others making a better use of it. They always have good ideas but poor execution. This is nothing new. Having the ideas is a different thing from building cars everybody desires. These are 2 distinct sets of talent. GM has always had good ideas.

quote Originally posted by cvxjet:Why do you absolutely need "Hand-stitched leather seats".........I actually like cloth more than leather.....and although I had to replace the driver-seat covers recently because of tears, they went 20 years before starting to tear.....(The Fiero interior was MUCH better than the other GM cars of the time- ESPECIALLY the Vette!)

Absolutely need? I absolutely need air. Oxygen.

But as I said, why not? And cloth can be done poorly or nicely too. It doesn't have to be leather. Same with plastic. It can look and feel cheap or it can feel high grade.

quote Originally posted by cvxjet:A good example; Cheap, mass-produced cars like the Fiero use stamped steel A-arms for the suspension- and the Ferrari 308 uses Aluminum tubing which is lighter, prettier, etc....So go hit a curb and you can drive the Fiero home- but that tubular aluminum arm is much easier to BREAK.......(And yes...I know....You don't buy a car to hit a curb!....Jeez....)

It's a matter of what you can afford. Who cares if the Ferrari is higher maintenance if I have a Bentley or Aston Martin to drive while my Ferrari is at service and if I can pay for it? Who cares if I hit a curb and can't drive the Ferrari home if my Limo driver comes pick me up? Now if I can't afford it, then fine. I have to make due with what I have. But I will not pretend like I didn't wish I could afford or that it is somehow of no use to have a car which is more expensively built.

Well.....I always feel more comfortable sitting on cloth than leather....Maybe if I sat on the seats that go in a $300,000 car I would be impressed.....But that is more than my house cost! I am sure they could make a copy of a Ferrari that cost $300,000......But I can give up a bit of fancy for having performance and having gas money...Maybe if I was lawyer or a doctor or someone else who is a "Professional" I would get enough money to buy something....."Worthy"......But I had trouble paying $23000 for my Formula F-bird a few years ago! I am not a professional; I was trained as an electronics tech in the Navy, then fixed computers at Atari, then fixed A/C wiring at NAS Alameda, then Haz Mat for the CG.....If I pushed paperwork I would be a "professional".....

That first NSX was a great car....But the snobs hate it....No Cachet......I mean, you can buy a watch that works for $100....But to really impress the "Right people", you MUST go and buy a $8000 rolex.......Then everyone will know how great you are.....Me, I am not great....But I love being able to dust a Ferrari 308 with a car that has, after 32 years, and 200,000 miles, cost me approx' $15,000, including buying it new....

Toyota tried to take on Ferrari, with their LFA......They delayed bringing it out because the aluminum chassis was too heavy, so they went to carbon-fiber......And even then a C6 ZO6 Vette with ALUMINUM chassis weighs 300 lbs less! And the LFA did not do that well lapping VIR- A 2017 Camaro SS 1LE beat it's Lightning lap time! (And that is not quarter mile; That is stopping, turning and going.....all of the performance parameters...)

You get what you pay for......Pay $90,000 and get a Vette Grand Sport that laps VIR at 2:47.1....Buy a LFA for $399,000 and lap the same track at 2:55.1.....And from what i read, the interior was not all that comfortable in the LFA.....or buy the Ferrari 488GTB for $358,000 and lap VIR at 2:45.1....But watch out for maintenance costs....You MUST have a certified mechanic (By Toyota or Ferrari) to do $5000- 8000 maintenance every year on your car....The Vette, you buys tires and gas...and an oil change......Maybe $1000 a year....

quote Originally posted by cvxjet: There is an interesting fact to the whole Supercar/Performance car story; You look at Ford/GM and Porsche, who sell in relative volume, vs Lambo, Aston Martin, Maserati, Alfa, etc....All the companies that go for high price/exclusiveness go broke.......Selling to rich people just doesn't have much profit in it....Selling a bunch of inexpensive cars to the masses is the way to real profits.....

I'm not sure that is the case. Ferrari is very profitable. Hence why they can do whatever they want within the Fiat group. I also don't think they have needed any government bailout that I can remember. Definitely not in recent history. So making cheap cars don't actually guarantee anything. GM and Chrysler got bailouts right? Ford too? I don't remember. Chrysler actually is not even U.S. owned anymore.

There is profit to be made within niche cars. But you have to be special. This is why a R8 is cheaper than the Gallardo or Hurracan even though underneath...

The "poor guy card" is all I can afford!

At one time, I was very impressed with Lambos and Panteras and MBs....But then, instead of reading how wonderful they were, I started to actually get exposed to some of them....It flabbergasts me what rich people will put up with in some of these cars....The Lambos, up until recently, have been worse than most kitcars, both interior and general engineering.....Those old Ferrari 308s are almost laughable as to dependability and ease of maintenance- and the ergonomics are, simply put, ridiculous. My father belonged to a sports car club back in the fifties- one of their members "made-it-big" and came by to show his old pals the new Ferrari he had bought...As they were walking around it, admiring it, my father noticed that the roof was UN-EVEN! You get a mass-production car and the die will punch out a million roofs ALL the same- and perfect- THAT is impressive!

An ex-GF's father bought her a used MB SL(1970s vintage)back in the late 80s for $3000 (What a deal!!!)...Only had a bad trany....Chuck figured, "A trany rebuild costs $500!".....Then he found out the MB trany would cost $3000!

It is very obvious that you NEVER get what you pay for with expensive cars- unless you are worried about impressing people....I knew I would never be the richest, the fastest, the tallest nor the prettiest......I just want to enjoy what I drive, and be relatively comfortable doing it, and a big hole in my back pocket has always made me uncomfortable...

I'm not trying to insult you, (Really!) but I just have very little respect for "Hand-crafted, custom-made, exclusive" stuff.....

Edit; Ford never went bankrupt because that stupid spaniard (Jack Nasser) almost killed them during the explorer/firestone tire debacle- Their wastefulness had been trimmed severely already.....GM went bankrupt because of the (Non) Depression...They were actually coming around and had started to make strides in interior design (Yes, the 80s-90s interiors looked like they were "By rubbermaid")...Chryco went bankrupt because of MB's incredibly (Criminally) poor management and that they never seem to get the idea that Quality is important! Lambo, Maserati, Jaguar, Rolls, Bugatti, Bentley....They have all gone bankrupt many times.....Ford dropped the price of the model T and made billions, then doubled his workers wages and made more billions....

[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 12-03-2017).]

quote Originally posted by cvxjet: The Lambos, up until recently, have been worse than most kitcars, both interior and general engineering.....

quote Originally posted by cvxjet: The "poor guy card" is all I can afford! At one time, I was very impressed with Lambos and Panteras and MBs....But then, instead of reading how wonderful they were, I started to actually get exposed to some of them....It flabbergasts me what rich people will put up with in some of these cars....The Lambos, up until recently, have been worse than most kitcars, both interior and general engineering.....Those old Ferrari 308s are almost laughable as to dependability and ease of maintenance- and the ergonomics are, simply put, ridiculous.

I have driven many of the cars people make replicas of here. All I can say is driving them is an experience in itself. Cheap is nice and it would be great if all cheap cars where also exciting and special. But they are not. You do have some cheap cars which are exciting, such as the Miata which is a gokart. Yet it gets snobbed in a lot of U.S. car forums or by U.S car fans as a lesser car. And you want to talk about impressing others. So many think a big V8 makes the car while most of the big V8s are not half the driver's car a Miata is. A V8 is many times just for bragging rights, or as you put it, to impress others. I'm not really a JDM car fan. But being a real petrolhead I recognize the Miata's attributes. But despite being a very fun car it is just not special. And it is also a very big exception. Most cheap cars are boring to drive.

The Fiero is another exception. It's very fun to drive and it's cheap. The cheapness show through all over as it's hard to get around it unless it's expensive. But it's a very underrated car. See, I find the Fiero WAY more exciting to drive than the Corvette. I would rather have a well sorted Fiero than a C7. Unless I could sell the C7 and buy another Fiero and put the rest in the bank. Driving a Vette is basically like, slams the throttle, "Wow it's fast", slows downs, slams the throttle, "Dang it's fast", slows downs, slams the throttle, "boy it goes!"... not much else to it. You can easily build a kitcar that gives you that experience. But try to build a kitcar that gives you the experience of driving a LaFerrari, a 918, a McLaren or even a 488. Not going to happen unless you spend similar money. Then you might as well buy a 488.

So I have to strongly disagree that an older Lamborghini or Pantera or other classic European supercars are like kitcars. You must have never driven these types of cars to say that. If you are talking reliability, of course higher performance cars will be less reliable than a cheap small car. But I find it ironic you criticize a 308 when U.S. cars of that time were pure junk! I have friends here in the U.S. car scene and a 1977 Trans AM handles and feels like a horse drawn wagon in comparison. Not to mention you can only find it with an auto gearbox and I don't want to even get into old auto gearboxes. The trim and the construction is much worse than the Ferrari too. Same thing with the old Vettes. All show and no go. It is just the reality of older U.S. cars. Comparing for example a W126 to anything made by Cadillac, Lincoln etc at the time is a genocide. The W126 is just so much superior. So I have no idea what you are on about. Sorry.

You want to talk about laughable? I could go on. But I don't want this to turn into a U.S. vs European car thread. I just don't understand you aversion to European supercars. It's starting to come across like you are just bitter you can't afford them as your arguments are making less and less sense. I can't afford them big supercars either. But I don't need to put them down because of that.

Like I said I have nothing against U.S. cars. But we need to be realistic if we want to have an intelligible conversation. For those reading this and thinking I'm just putting U.S. cars down, just remember I'm considering importing a Fiero here. By all my calculations after I get the car as I want it with an engine swap etc, I could buy an European sports car such as a Lotus Elise MK1. Maybe even a newer one. But that's not what I want. I prefer the Fiero. But if I was against U.S. cars I would not go through the trouble of a Fiero here. I'm not against U.S. or any particular car or car make. I'm not a GM fan, I'm not a Ford fan, I'm not a Mercedes fan. I'm just a petrolhead. A fan of nice cars in general. I'm just giving credit where its due.

If what I want is a muscle car, it's hard to beat a Hellcat. Nothing in Europe can really. Muscle cars were never Europe's thing. I'm better of with a Hellcat, a Camaro, a Mustang or even a Viper. I don't see an European car that would make more sense if what I want is a muscle car. And by the way, I know these cars are not technically muscle cars by definition. But you get what I mean. Oh yes, or a Holden Commodore or a Ford Falcon too.

But if what I want is a supercar, the Corvette is not it. Europe makes the best supercars and even sports cars if budget is not a concern, with very few exceptions. This is just how it is.

Europe also makes junk by the way. But it just doesn't make any sense complaining about older cars. Especially not when the very car you are defending, the Corvette, was a piece of junk at the time of the 308. It was so outdated and badly put together that it's not even worth mentioning it in the same breath as a Ferrari.

To answer your question about why rich people will put up with some of these cars, because they offer a great driving experience. They offer a special experience in general. The whole package. So it makes it worth it forgiving the shortcomings, especially when they are understandable shortcomings. If you have something special you can't expect it to be like a VW. Now of course many rich people only buy Lambos and other supercars to show off. Many of them can barely properly drive a normal car and will never drive their supercar hard. They are just posers. But there are some who actually know about real driving and will do just that. Besides the cars are not build only for show. Some are. But Ferraris definitely aren't. They are cutting edge performance machines. This is also why I prefer more classic supercars. The show offs all go for the newest and greatest. When you see a guy with an older Supercar, he is normally a petrolhead. Unless it's one of those million dollar cars. Then he is probably a collector.

And lastly, how much sense does it make to criticize European supercars in a Fiero forum? There will be barely any Fieros left because they are all turned into fake European supercar copies. It's obvious people want them and can't afford them so they make copies of them. Nothing wrong with that. But criticizing it then under these circumstances is a bit hypocritical.

quote Originally posted by cvxjet: My father belonged to a sports car club back in the fifties- one of their members "made-it-big" and came by to show his old pals the new Ferrari he had bought...As they were walking around it, admiring it, my father noticed that the roof was UN-EVEN! You get a mass-production car and the die will punch out a million roofs ALL the same- and perfect- THAT is impressive!

I guess you are impressed by different things than I. I'm not impressed by a robot or machine being able to press a sheet of metal the same way every time. I mean, how would it not be the same? They have a mold and it's a machine. Nothing impressive in that. It's actually to be expected.

quote Originally posted by cvxjet: An ex-GF's father bought her a used MB SL(1970s vintage)back in the late 80s for $3000 (What a deal!!!)...Only had a bad trany....Chuck figured, "A trany rebuild costs $500!".....Then he found out the MB trany would cost $3000! It is very obvious that you NEVER get what you pay for with expensive cars- unless you are worried about impressing people....

OK. I think you can drop the whole impress people and status argument now. It's getting repetitive and starting to sound like you are running out of arguments.

I just told you I would rather drive a well sorted Fiero than a C7. How's that for caring about impressing others?

quote Originally posted by cvxjet:I knew I would never be the richest, the fastest, the tallest nor the prettiest......I just want to enjoy what I drive, and be relatively comfortable doing it, and a big hole in my back pocket has always made me uncomfortable... I'm not trying to insult you, (Really!) but I just have very little respect for "Hand-crafted, custom-made, exclusive" stuff.....

I'm not offended. I'm not a thin skinned person. I'm the type to be honest, frank, direct and blunt. So I also prefer people who are that way. Given that I can't be easily offended. So don't worry about that.

As for respecting hand crafted or not, it's up to you if you are more impressed with a cookiecutter than with art. I can't tell you what to be impressed about. To each their own.

quote Originally posted by cvxjet:Edit; Ford never went bankrupt because that stupid spaniard (Jack Nasser) almost killed them during the explorer/firestone tire debacle- Their wastefulness had been trimmed severely already.....GM went bankrupt because of the (Non) Depression...They were actually coming around and had started to make strides in interior design (Yes, the 80s-90s interiors looked like they were "By rubbermaid")...Chryco went bankrupt because of MB's incredibly (Criminally) poor management and that they never seem to get the idea that Quality is important! Lambo, Maserati, Jaguar, Rolls, Bugatti, Bentley....They have all gone bankrupt many times.....Ford dropped the price of the model T and made billions, then doubled his workers wages and made more billions....

I was honestly asking if Ford also got a bailout or not. I wasn't sure and couldn't be bothered looking it up because I don't care. I just don't understand why you had to include that Nasser is a Spaniard and what difference that makes.

GM went bankrupt for the same reason any other company does. Incompetence.

I find it interesting that you say Mercedes Benz don't get the idea that quality is important when they built their world wide famous reputation by building quality cars. The W124 platform is a tank! Literally. Granted the Mercs from 2000 to about 2010-12 are not quality built. They are supposed to have come back to form now. This lapse was caused by trying to compete with Toyota in prices. I guess by now MB has figured it's not a good strategy. Besides Lexus never did take a hold here in Europe anyway. They are only big in the U.S.

So MB absolutely thinks quality is important. That's their whole calling card. Also blaming MB for Chrysler bankruptcy doesn't make a lot of sense when MB is very profitable and so are its brands. It's clear MB not only knows how to make cars but also how to take care of business. The whole Chrysler fiasco was the worst deal MB ever made and actually made them lose a lot of money.

But you know, I have the feeling we can be here the whole day. So we better agree to disagree. I couldn't care less for just HP, speed etc. See, that is to me just for bragging. Just to impress others. I don't care about impressing others. The car needs to impress me. The Corvette has never managed to. Because I will always compare it to what it is trying to be, and then it fails. If I compare it to a Toyota GT86, sure the Vette is very impressive. But it is not trying to be a car like that. It is trying to fight higher up cars. And then it doesn't impress me. It's about the driving experience to me. Way more fun to drive a Fiero or MR2, even though they are slower than a C7.

It's clear you appreciate different things in a car. Maybe you are all about sheer speed and sheer HP. That's fine. I'm not. That doesn't make a car special to me. So to each his own.

I just hope our healthy discussions here have not put bad blood in between us. I'm still looking forward to the pictures of your creative suspension mods.

[This message has been edited by Rn2016 (edited 12-04-2017).]

Quote>>>>I was honestly asking if Ford also got a bailout or not. I wasn't sure and couldn't be bothered looking it up because I don't care. I just don't understand why you had to include that Nasser is a Spaniard and what difference that makes.

GM went bankrupt for the same reason any other company does. Incompetence.

I find it interesting that you say Mercedes Benz don't get the idea that quality is important when they built their world wide famous reputation by building quality cars. The W124 platform is a tank! Literally. Granted the Mercs from 2000 to about 2010-12 are not quality built. They are supposed to have come back to form now. This lapse was caused by trying to compete with Toyota in prices. I guess by now MB has figured it's not a good strategy. Besides Lexus never did take a hold here in Europe anyway. They are only big in the U.S.

So MB absolutely thinks quality is important. That's their whole calling card. Also blaming MB for Chrysler bankruptcy doesn't make a lot of sense when MB is very profitable and so are its brands. It's clear MB not only knows how to make cars but also how to take care of business. The whole Chrysler fiasco was the worst deal MB ever made and actually made them lose a lot of money.

But you know, I have the feeling we can be here the whole day. So we better agree to disagree. I couldn't care less for just HP, speed etc. See, that is to me just for bragging. Just to impress others. I don't care about impressing others. The car needs to impress me. The Corvette has never managed to. Because I will always compare it to what it is trying to be, and then it fails. If I compare it to a Toyota GT86, sure the Vette is very impressive. But it is not trying to be a car like that. It is trying to fight higher up cars. And then it doesn't impress me. It's about the driving experience to me. Way more fun to drive a Fiero or MR2, even though they are slower than a C7.

It's clear you appreciate different things in a car. Maybe you are all about sheer speed and sheer HP. That's fine. I'm not. That doesn't make a car special to me. So to each his own.

I just hope our healthy discussions here have not put bad blood in between us. I'm still looking forward to the pictures of your creative suspension mods. <<<<Quote
-
-
-
I apologize for the "Nasser is a spaniard" thing...I finally looked up his wiki entry and he is Australian/Lebonese.....And one other thing he did that makes me crazy-mad about him is that after screwing up Ford and getting fired, a few years later he came back and tried to buy PAG from Ford....Pure, unadulterated arrogance!

I have driven a 308 and 911 and Pantera......There are some very good things about these cars- but there are some ridiculously bad things about them also; The "Simian driving position" (No leg room, with the wheel way out there) No ventilation, poor shifting- The 911 was better inside, but the at-the-limit handling was stupid......And seriously, GM was getting their Shxt together in the 2000s and then the whole economy went in the crapper because of the bankers (Thank gosh the bankers got a FREE bail out (With bonuses)....

I wrote the MB/Chryco line poorly.....MB arrogantly messed up Chryco- swapping very successful stylists for family/friends who could not style a poop! It is Chryco that never seems to get the whole quality requirement....They did it before and are doing it now.....All they have to do is start listening to TQM from Deming....We did that at NAS Alameda and the whole place changed completely......(By the way, MB quality is bad here in the states- has been for a while- they rate very poorly in long-term quality studies!)

I just NEVER am willing to spend MORE to gain Cachet.....Ever! I don't care what others think of me...I water ski behind a Jet boat, drive a Fiero, etc.....(Here in CA, you catch hell if you drive American...."Must be an import- only imports are good...America builds crap!") Quality, to me, means it works properly and lasts....Could be a car, a hammer, even a dang nail- must work and work good >>>for the money<<<.......

[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 12-04-2017).]

quote Originally posted by cvxjet: Quote>>>>I was honestly asking if Ford also got a bailout or not. I wasn't sure and couldn't be bothered looking it up because I don't care. I just don't understand why you had to include that Nasser is a Spaniard and what difference that makes. GM went bankrupt for the same reason any other company does. Incompetence. I find it interesting that you say Mercedes Benz don't get the idea that quality is important when they built their world wide famous reputation by building quality cars. The W124 platform is a tank! Literally. Granted the Mercs from 2000 to about 2010-12 are not quality built. They are supposed to have come back to form now. This lapse was caused by trying to compete with Toyota in prices. I guess by now MB has figured it's not a good strategy. Besides Lexus never did take a hold here in Europe anyway. They are only big in the U.S. So MB absolutely thinks quality is important. That's their whole calling card. Also blaming MB for Chrysler bankruptcy doesn't make a lot of sense when MB is very profitable and so are its brands. It's clear MB not only knows how to make cars but also how to take care of business. The whole Chrysler fiasco was the worst deal MB ever made and actually made them lose a lot of money. But you know, I have the feeling we can be here the whole day. So we better agree to disagree. I couldn't care less for just HP, speed etc. See, that is to me just for bragging. Just to impress others. I don't care about impressing others. The car needs to impress me. The Corvette has never managed to. Because I will always compare it to what it is trying to be, and then it fails. If I compare it to a Toyota GT86, sure the Vette is very impressive. But it is not trying to be a car like that. It is trying to fight higher up cars. And then it doesn't impress me. It's about the driving experience to me. Way more fun to drive a Fiero or MR2, even though they are slower than a C7. It's clear you appreciate different things in a car. Maybe you are all about sheer speed and sheer HP. That's fine. I'm not. That doesn't make a car special to me. So to each his own. I just hope our healthy discussions here have not put bad blood in between us. I'm still looking forward to the pictures of your creative suspension mods. <<<<Quote - - - I apologize for the "Nasser is a spaniard" thing...I finally looked up his wiki entry and he is Australian/Lebonese.....And one other thing he did that makes me crazy-mad about him is that after screwing up Ford and getting fired, a few years later he came back and tried to buy PAG from Ford....Pure, unadulterated arrogance! I have driven a 308 and 911 and Pantera......There are some very good things about these cars- but there are some ridiculously bad things about them also; The "Simian driving position" (No leg room, with the wheel way out there) No ventilation, poor shifting- The 911 was better inside, but the at-the-limit handling was stupid......And seriously, GM was getting their Shxt together in the 2000s and then the whole economy went in the crapper because of the bankers (Thank gosh the bankers got a FREE bail out (With bonuses).... I wrote the MB/Chryco line poorly.....MB arrogantly messed up Chryco- swapping very successful stylists for family/friends who could not style a poop! It is Chryco that never seems to get the whole quality requirement....They did it before and are doing it now.....All they have to do is start listening to TQM from Deming....We did that at NAS Alameda and the whole place changed completely......(By the way, MB quality is bad here in the states- has been for a while- they rate very poorly in long-term quality studies!) I just NEVER am willing to spend MORE to gain Cachet.....Ever! I don't care what others think of me...I water ski behind a Jet boat, drive a Fiero, etc.....(Here in CA, you catch hell if you drive American...."Must be an import- only imports are good...America builds crap!") Quality, to me, means it works properly and lasts....Could be a car, a hammer, even a dang nail- must work and work good >>>for the money<<<.......

You are still taking about cachet, status, impressing others. Who in this thread is worried about that?

I think it's just as unnecessary mentioning Nasser is Australian/Lebanese. None of that bares anything over his capacity to do his job.

You drove a pre 1975 Pantera, right? I think 1974 was the last year Ford brought them in. And you think it's worse than a 1974 Vette or Firebird? Many European cars when they go to the U.S. were and are somehow crippled. They are normally de-tuned, made heavier because of extra safety equipment and other things to pass your regulations. But I can't see them making it that bad in the federalization process. Because even though the Pantera sucks in handling and a few other things compared to most similar European cars, as the big V8 makes it butt heavy and the whole thing was put together on the cheap, I still think it drives better than any Vette or Firebird of same vintage, looks better and has a nicer interior too. The thing about the Pantera though is that it is the closest thing to an European Corvette we have. The choice of using Ford running gear was to keep costs down. This is why it doesn't have an Alfa Romeo, Maserarti or even Ferrari engine. So like the Corvette it was made cutting corners. But I still consider it a notch above the Vette. At least the European versions.

Pantera of that Vintage interior:




Vette of that vintage interior:



911 of that vintage interior:



I tried choosing well kept interiors and of the same color to make it fair. (Already waiting for all the "I prefer the Vette's interior because..." posts

The 308 interior was always very Spartan and that was intended. It was the base Ferrari and it was never intended to be luxurious. But I can't see how it drives worse than a Vette of same vintage either.

I'm no Porsche fan and never liked the butt heavy 911, specially the vintage cars.

The whole "Simian driving position" in Italian cars have become a cliche as bad as saying a Fiero is a death trap. I have seen people using it for cars that actually don't have it. Modern Italian cars for example don't really suffer from that anymore.

As for shifting, it had a ZF box which is raved in some other cars. But the early Panteras are infamous for being noise and clunky shifters. Again, cutting corners and keeping costs down. But it became much better later on. It's a pity the U.S. never got the later ones.

[This message has been edited by Rn2016 (edited 12-04-2017).]

Wait...! The Fiero isn't a death trap?!!!

I don't know what to say about the C3 Vette interior vs the Pantera...Ergonomics really hadn't even been invented back then......Most cars were hard to get iin and out of, and you were lucky to find the steering wheel.....I never liked the C3 Vettes because they were too long, too heavy, too short a wheelbase, had a cliff for a dash (With the small gauges down low in the center console(Like the Pantera!)....and you had to peer over the hood that was in front of your face, rather than below.....But the other sports cars from back then were pretty bad too......The 911 had one thing going for it, it could be used as a daily driver...everything else was temperamental, had no real comfort, etc.

I have noticed in the last 5 years that my Fiero seems to be getting lower and lower....I measured the height, but the tape measure is getting shorter too! (It CAN'T be that I'm getiin' old....)

quote Originally posted by cvxjet: Wait...! The Fiero isn't a death trap?!!! I don't know what to say about the C3 Vette interior vs the Pantera...Ergonomics really hadn't even been invented back then......Most cars were hard to get iin and out of, and you were lucky to find the steering wheel.....I never liked the C3 Vettes because they were too long, too heavy, too short a wheelbase, had a cliff for a dash (With the small gauges down low in the center console(Like the Pantera!)....and you had to peer over the hood that was in front of your face, rather than below.....But the other sports cars from back then were pretty bad too......The 911 had one thing going for it, it could be used as a daily driver...everything else was temperamental, had no real comfort, etc. I have noticed in the last 5 years that my Fiero seems to be getting lower and lower....I measured the height, but the tape measure is getting shorter too! (It CAN'T be that I'm getiin' old....)

Yes, I agree here. That's the biggest advantage of the 911. It can be used as a daily driver. Especially the modern ones. They are so computer assisted, like any new car, that now anybody can drive them. No longer widowmakers. In my opinion they have lost a little of the character. But since I was never a 911 fan, I don't really care.

But in this regard the Corvette is also very good. You can also drive a Corvette everyday. This to me has also always been one of its advantages, along with the cheap maintenance. You can't really do that with the exotics. Maybe a R8. But not many of the other exotics.

quote Originally posted by Thedugshow: Hey guys been working away at my Fiero videos and was gonna make a history of the Fiero video. Started doing some research n reading old articles and what not and figured just asking on here would be good spot too for info. So what are some cool stories, facts or general trivia any of you got off the top ff your head you don't mind. Just looking for some cool things to talk about for the video. Thanks -dug

I hope you gathered a couple nuggets to use from this thread.

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: First thing to do is get the facts and all the info to back them up. Documentation to back them up is important in this day of anything goes on the web. The first fact is Lotus did not have one damn thing to do with the Fiero Suspension. GM designed the new suspension and it had been in the works since the very start of the program. It is what they wanted in the first place but just did not have money for it. Tom also went on to state that the 88 Suspension while GM designed was sent to Porsche Engineering to have it tuned for turn in and scrub radius. Porsche engineering is not the car division but a division that does outside work along with internal work for Porsche. They wanted the feel of a 911 and who better to do so.

I good friend of mine was a GM engineer at the time of the 1988 suspension development. Jim Heise. He now works at Iowa State University as a engineering professor.
According to him, GM bought and presented to the design team a brand new Ferrari 308. They were told that it must outhandled the 308 in all respects. Which
it did. There were two seperate design teams. One for the front suspension and one for the rear. Jim worked on the front design team. Lotus was not involved in any way. I used to kid him that the autocross guys liked to use the early front suspension with the 88 rear. It used to really tick him off. He would go into a speech spouting all the spec.s and improvements of the front suspension. If you wanted to interview him, I am sure he would talk to you concerning this....

I read or viewed a GM sales video, that 50% of all Fiero sales were to women.

Also, I read somewhere, that the rear engine vent cover on the 84 Fiero was the largest single cast magnesium piece by GM at the time?

That GM was exploring to utilizing plastic composite wheel rims for the next generation Fiero. And, in fact a set were built and were put on the 90 Prototype Fiero GT.

The engine in the 90 prototype is a 3.2 liter version of the 3.4 liter TDC (double overhead camshaft) as found in the Cutlass Supreme and Gran Prix GTP of 90's era.

And another fact/rumour...my 88GT 3800SC is the best Fiero. Lol. Have a great New Year everyone