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90mm Low Profile headlight buckets, LED conversion question. by JohnWPB
Started on: 11-06-2016 06:40 PM
Replies: 23 (1243 views)
Last post by: skuzzbomer on 02-20-2018 09:42 AM
JohnWPB
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Report this Post11-06-2016 06:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have been doing some research on replacing my H9 halogen bulbs with LED's. When I ordered my 90mm lights, they came with standard halogen bulbs that cast a pretty yellowish light. I prefer the whiter light that the LED's put out.

Here are the buckets and setup I have installed now:


I know I want the lights in the 6000k range, as this is white, and not yet into the overly blue range.

The questions I have are:

How will the cutoff work, as I do not want to blind oncoming drivers. Is this handled by the bulb, or the housings the bulbs go into. Is this something I need to concern myself with when choosing LED bulbs?

Here is a set that I have just about settled on.

www.amazon.com/LEDHeadlights.html
They are rated at 5,000 lm each, the highest I found so far. They have a 4 star rating, and a large number of reviewers. (Hard to judge other ones with 5 star ratings, when there are just 2 people reviewing them)

This set as a backup, with 4,000 Lm output

And Yet another set with Cree LED's, with 4,000 lm output.

Is there any advantage that anyone knows of one set over the other, and any issues with directly replacing the bulbs in my 90mm housings?

Any help and suggestions are appreciated.

@Ogre: Yes, I know these are not DOT approved, and I am fully aware of all of the legal ramifications that go along with it

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fireboss
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Report this Post11-07-2016 04:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for firebossClick Here to Email firebossSend a Private Message to firebossEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:
@Ogre: Yes, I know these are not DOT approved, and I am fully aware of all of the legal ramifications that go along with it


Now that just made me giggle a bit....
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Report this Post11-07-2016 10:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FiervetteClick Here to Email FiervetteSend a Private Message to FiervetteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have the same setup, and recently had the same quandary. Because I was worried about the low beam pattern using LEDs, I put HIDs in the low beam, and LED in the high beam. I rewired the low beam to stay on all the time because HIDs do not like to turn on and off rapidly. The low beam pattern is not a sharp as a real Xenon projector, but it is certainly acceptable. I put the HIDs on a relay, did not bother with the High beam LEDs because of the low current draw. I used some generic brand that were made with CREE components.

The LEDs in the high beam really light up everything. I am very happy with my setup . it is a night and day improvement over the original square beams and a definite improvement over the H9 halogens.

If you wanted to use LEDs in the low beams, you could just order one set, and try it. Worst case, you can use them in the high beams, and find another solution for the low beams.

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Report this Post11-07-2016 11:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:
The questions I have are:

How will the cutoff work, as I do not want to blind oncoming drivers. Is this handled by the bulb, or the housings the bulbs go into. Is this something I need to concern myself with when choosing LED bulbs?



The housings have cutoff shields in them that create the light cutoff on your low beam. However it's not that simple, the housing is designed for a certain length bulb to keep the focal point in a certain area, a longer or shorter bulb could affect the light output as well as the glare and other factors. I have done a lot of reading on the Hella 90mm housings. I do know that they can work fairly well with HID for what they are (this all depends who you ask), not as good as a housing specifically designed for HID but they aren't going to be blinding other drivers either. I would say give the LED bulbs a try and just use common sense and see how the light pattern looks.

If you really want to get lost in lighting information go to https://www.hidplanet.com/forums/ these guys are fanatics, but they aren't huge fans of the Hella 90mm, but we have pretty limited choices since we have pop up lights and need a weather proof housings on a Fiero.
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JohnWPB
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Report this Post11-07-2016 04:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The information about the bulbs being different lengths, and scattering the light differently makes a lot of sense.

I guess I will do as you guys suggested, and just get a pair of them, and give them a try in the low beams. If they work, great! If not, I will just put them into the high beam housings.

I am going to hold off for a few days before ordering, to see if any other ideas or suggestions show up in this thread.

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 11-07-2016).]

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Report this Post11-07-2016 05:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
6000k is blue, 4500 ish, is white.
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JohnWPB
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Report this Post11-07-2016 08:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

6000k is blue, 4500 ish, is white.


4500 is on the top end of an incandescent bulb. I do like a little bit of blue hue when it comes to headlights, a LITTLE.



6000 is really low on the "blue end" of things.

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 11-07-2016).]

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Report this Post11-07-2016 08:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:
@Ogre: Yes, I know these are not DOT approved, and I am fully aware of all of the legal ramifications that go along with it
Even ignore legal or not... Housing/Shells made for Halogen Bulbs very often perform very poorly when you change to LED or HID. Same problem for LED in HID shells and so on.
Shells are design and made to focus "Bulb" type used with them.

Proper Focus is critical for light performance and changing bulb type or just changing filament orientation can, often will, affect focus for light output for any type of fixture of HL, stage/movies lights, and many more even to light you house in many cases.
Just one HL example: Phillips made Hi-Visibility, H6054HV and others, w/ halogen filament orientation vertical instead of horizontal and had to redesign the shell/lens to make this work. (Phillips stops making any Halogen Seal beams HL years ago.)

This means you need to change the entire HL not just switch the bulb.

Worse, Many Vendors will sell you LED or HID "upgrades" for H4 etc shells and they often know changing bulbs are BS at best but sell anyway to make quick money from buyers having no clue.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


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Blacktree
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Report this Post11-07-2016 08:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have 6000k headlight bulbs in the Jetta, and they can look a little yellowish or a little bluish, depending on the lighting conditions. But for the most part, they're bright white.

I have the Hella 90mm headlamps in the Fiero, and am thinking of upgrading the bulbs also. They've had standard halogens in them for about 8-10 years now, and they're starting to get a little dim. So I'll be watching this thread with interest.

Like zmcdonal said, the low-beam cutoff is built into the housing itself. If you install low-beam bulbs that are physically different from the standard bulbs, that may affect the cutoff.
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JohnWPB
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Report this Post11-07-2016 10:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I ordered them tonight, and they will be here on Wednesday. I will give them a shot, and will definitely post the results here.

As mentioned, if the cutoff is crappy in the low beam housings, I will just use them in the high beams, where cutoff is of no concern.
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Report this Post11-07-2016 10:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good idea.
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Report this Post11-07-2016 10:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for unboundmoClick Here to Email unboundmoSend a Private Message to unboundmoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Are there going to be ohm differences running LED? ----- I made a housing for a fog/parking/turn signal. The fog is halogen (works great! ) and the others are LED.. On the LED, the one is a little brighter than the other. I believe i need to add the resistor in between to show its proper reading... I wish there was another way...?

I have the 90mm as well In a similar housing ( DON'T Buy the eBay crap hid kits!) -- they DID work and with proper light beam. However, the housing and quality of the bulb was all plastic and crap! The color lum numbers they say, weren't what they were supposed to be.

Anyway... Sorry. Had to get that out there to worn...


Let us know if you have any issues.. Definitely-- about the LED!

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 11-07-2016).]

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Report this Post11-08-2016 02:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WhitefiretigerSend a Private Message to WhitefiretigerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Forgive me if this is common knoledge (don't own a Fiero) but do fieros use 7x6 sealed beams stock?
If so why not just do a aftermarker housing with mini h1 bi xeon retrofit?
This can be done on smaller housings as well but gets a bit harder.

Heres the 7x6 hid projector i did for my old S10

[This message has been edited by Whitefiretiger (edited 11-08-2016).]

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Report this Post11-08-2016 03:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MonkeymanSend a Private Message to MonkeymanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
JohnWPB (OP) doesn't have stock headlights. He has low profile headlights. The kit he's using is made specifically for 90mm Hella lights (separate high and low beams).
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Report this Post11-08-2016 11:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:


4500 is on the top end of an incandescent bulb. I do like a little bit of blue hue when it comes to headlights, a LITTLE.



6000 is really low on the "blue end" of things.



Depends where you get your graph,



6000s look very blue to me in person, its really preference though.
I've never seen an led for sale bluer than 7000k.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 11-08-2016).]

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Report this Post11-08-2016 09:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WhitefiretigerSend a Private Message to WhitefiretigerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok my bad.

If you do get hid or led bulbs be ready to figure out spacers to get the light at the right location inside the housings.
6000k leds are normally the best white option. For hids color changes depending if you use 55w or 35w. 35w tends to show more color while 55w washes out and is whiter. So 5300k to 6000k with 55w for hid is best white.

I never leave halogen bulbs in my vehicles any longer than it takes to get my hids and leds shipped in if i can help it. Ive bought so many styles and most are all the same china stuff with few exceptions. For low beam leds make sure the leds do not point foward but at the housing. Then you may need to make spacers to get the center of the leds to be in the same location as the filament in the halogen bulbs to get best light output/cutoff. Same goes for hids; if you get the center of light of the hid bulb where it was with the halogen then youll get good results (also wont blind others and avoid tickets)

[This message has been edited by Whitefiretiger (edited 11-08-2016).]

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Report this Post11-10-2016 09:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for imacflierClick Here to Email imacflierSend a Private Message to imacflierEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just replaced the halogen bulbs in the wife's Murano with led's.....cheapo cree from China. There are three faces on the LED 'bulb'. It is keyed (9007 type) for insertion into the socket. The dimming function works by turning off one face of the LED 'bulb'. Since the keying of the socket orients the switchable bulb panel to up dimming works quite well....I am very pleased. These were 6500*K bulbs and are just a bit bluer than I would have preferred.
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JohnWPB
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Report this Post11-14-2016 10:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok, the LED Headlights came in the mail today, and I installed them in the low beam housings. The car is not yet running, so I could not take it out for a spin and drive it up to a wall to see what the light spread is. However, walking about 50 feet away from the car, and hunching down to about where you would be aligned in an oncoming vehicle, the lights were not bothersome in any way. When I kneeled down, low to the ground, they were too bright to stare into.

It was then when I walked over to the car again, that I thought I saw a line where the light cut off. I grabbed a suitcase from the garage, and put it in front of the car. Sure enough, a PERFECT cutoff line! Looks like I need to adjust the lights up just a little bit, but NO light scatter at all to be seen!

This is how the bulbs came packaged:


A close up of the bulb, and the waterproof fan assembly on the back to keep them cool:


Here is the LED headlight in the drivers side housing, with the standard halogen on the passenger side:


Lastly, here are the 2 LED's installed and the light they cast forward. It appears to be bright white, with just the very slightest tinge of blue.


Lastly, here is the suitcase put out in front of the lights, and you can clearly see the cutoff line:



I am VERY happy with the results! I have always disliked the yellow light that headlights on cars give off. Technology has finally caught up to my taste over the past few years

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 11-14-2016).]

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Report this Post11-14-2016 11:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Does that has fans to cool?
Small fans needs high RPM to move enough air.
any fan can have dirt problem but small fans more so.

I replaced Many fans w/ bad bearing, etc, but replace many Video boards, PSU, and other things because the fan died then whatever overheat and died.
Car w/ these small fans are a very big dirt magnet and can be plugged or die very fast.

LED are rated many hr but only last when they are cool.
Some fans has Tstat or controller to switch on/off or to control speed but might not matter when fan is < 2" diameter because they spin 3500 to 5000RPM.
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Report this Post11-14-2016 11:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the update. The new headlights look pretty cool.

I wasn't aware that LED headlight bulbs had little cooling fans in them. I've had pretty bad luck with things that have tiny (made in china) cooling fans in them. But I noticed Hella makes Xenon H9 bulbs. So I'll probably get those.
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Report this Post02-12-2018 09:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tom SlickClick Here to Email Tom SlickSend a Private Message to Tom SlickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
John,
You still happy with the LED conversion?
Have upgraded the high beams?
Do you have a pic of the bulbs in the housing?

Thanks...

[This message has been edited by Tom Slick (edited 02-12-2018).]

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Report this Post02-12-2018 11:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am happy with them so far. I do have to admit, they are not quite as bright as other headlights I have had on cars. They work well for me here in South Florida, but I am not so sure I would trust them up north with Deer and Moose

I did upgrade the High Beams as well. I used the same exact set of bulbs. When placed in the high beam housings, the light has no cutoff and covers from ground up into the trees. I can only surmise that it is the housings that controls the light output.

It's dark now, so I will try to get some photos of them in the housings tomorrow.

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 02-12-2018).]

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Report this Post02-14-2018 04:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mr_coreanSend a Private Message to mr_coreanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Everything in the system affects the light output. If you have bad housings they won't project as well. If you have lower power bulbs they won't produce as much light. If you have wiring that can't get the correct current to the bulb then nothing works like it's supposed to. It all builds on itself. I've tried LEDs on and off every year or so and still haven't found any that work as well as HID in the same price ranges. Both are night and day better than stock halogen, but the HIDs in the price range most Fiero owners want to pay for have a significantly better light output than the LEDs. I haven't used the 90mm housings, but the 60mm with bulbs the same length as the Hella halogens has exceptional light output. Use a relay and 55w bulbs with 6000k bulbs and the light is 100% white and very bright. If you go 35w bulbs the light will be dimmer and white at 5000k and turning blue at 6000k.

Here is my car with 55w 60mm HID. I paid $80 6 years ago for the 4 ballasts and spent $50 for new bulbs to fit these housings. You can just get the correct HID kit to fit your housing and have one sub $100 price tag. You can see the light is very white. To aim them I put the car's nose up against a wall and marked the cut off line with painter's tape. Then I backed up 25 feet, on flat ground, and adjusted the light until the cut off line matched the painter's tape. One side then the other. To do the high beams I marked the center of the light on the wall where it was harshest and then did the same backup thing. The high beams are the hardest to aim because as you back up, the center becomes hard to track. Total aiming process was ten minutes including measuring everything out. By looking at the height of the light on the dirt hill, you can see the beam is very low to the ground while still having excellent range. The signs you see at the end of the road in the high beam shot are just under 500m away, so more than a 1/4 mile. That's where the road stops going straight so I have no idea how far down the road they will actually illuninate. Our cars being as low as they are makes it very easy to not blind other drivers unless they are driving a luge. I'll get some shots tonight of the cutoff so you can see how sharp they are as well as an above and below the cutoff from in front of the car with heights so you can know how low other drivers need to be in order to get blinded by us.





Cheapo ballasts is another concern of people. I've got probably 10 sets of the things laying around I've acquired over the years. None have ever failed and all were cheap. 90+% of all HID kits are made in China by only a couple different companies that everyone else just rebrands. They are weather tight, lightweight, and cheap. The biggest cause of failure I've seen for other people was heat or improper mounting/no mounting. They are electronics so they don't like heat or being knocked around. People like to put them in hot areas or just tuck them in a spot where they rattle around and get beat up. I screwed mine to the floor under the headlight assemblies. They don't move and the only heat they are exposed to is the radiator which doesn't put much heat off in that area. I fully expect to be running this set of ballasts in ten years. At that point, I'd say I will have more than gotten my monies worth.

For the LEDs, you really need to get high dollar ones, $100+ per bulb to get the same performance as the HIDs. The bulb will last much longer and the install will be simpler since no ballasts. I recommend the long heatsink ones vs ones with fans though unless you are going to regularly clean the fans for the reasons others have already stated.
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skuzzbomer
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Report this Post02-20-2018 09:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for skuzzbomerSend a Private Message to skuzzbomerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:

@Ogre: Yes, I know these are not DOT approved, and I am fully aware of all of the legal ramifications that go along with it


Bit of useless trivia:
The 90mm Hella low beam projectors are designed and certified as both halogen H9 and D2S (xenon, shielded) units and there is next to no difference between the two, aside the different ends to hold the different bulbs/capsules. Internally, the 90mm units sold as xenon and halogen are identical to each other.

Right. Back under my hole, then.
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