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HP Torque and Displacement by bonzo
Started on: 06-30-2016 10:08 PM
Replies: 76 (974 views)
Last post by: IanT720 on 07-19-2016 09:09 AM
bonzo
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Report this Post06-30-2016 10:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bonzoClick Here to Email bonzoSend a Private Message to bonzoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I showed my Dad some articles of these Tuner cars getting 600+ hp and torque. He was amazed at the power they're getting out of these 4 bangers.
My Dad has a Ram 2500 with a 6.7l Cummins, runs a tuner, that has about 400+hp and 800+ torque. Last Sat. were were towing a 26' boat, both the truck and boat had full tanks of gas and water. We had 5 people in the truck plus coolers etc. Fully loaded. We came up to a very steep and long bridge doing about 55 mph. My dad said lets see what this Baby will do. When we were at the top of the bridge we had sped up to 75 mph. He said now let me see one of those 4 bangers do that. I didn't know what to say. Could a 4 banger boasting that much hp and torque do that?
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Report this Post06-30-2016 10:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That's pretty funny. The numbers don't remember which engine they came from..... If your lawn mower had the same horsepower and torque numbers as the Cummins, it could do the same work.
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Report this Post06-30-2016 10:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, in a Mitsubishi Evo you won't be towing a 10,000 lbs trailer load.

But sure, if a 4 cylinder engine was making the same torque, was in something with the frame and suspension to support towing the load, and the trans and final drive gearing was matched with the torque curve of the engine, it would pull it in the same way.

The 1.4 liter 4 cylinder in my Cruze Eco has a turbo for the same reasons that the 6.7 liter Cummins in a Ram has one. Why do you think the torque rating on that big diesel is so much higher than the HP rating? It's tuned to make big torque down low, for towing, and peak RPM is not that high.
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Report this Post06-30-2016 10:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Oh crap, not this debate again!

Sure a 4 banger could make the same power as a V8, but for how long..
4 banger needs to be wound tight to do it, while the V8 won't be breaking a sweat.

Kevin

Edit to add, to answer the OP's question....no.

[This message has been edited by Lambo nut (edited 06-30-2016).]

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Report this Post07-01-2016 09:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IanT720Click Here to Email IanT720Send a Private Message to IanT720Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If the cars had the same Torque, then yes. HP is meaningless in this scenario, as is displacement. In the end the little engine, and it's little drivetrain components will never survive as long as a big engine working easier.
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Report this Post07-01-2016 09:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IanT720Click Here to Email IanT720Send a Private Message to IanT720Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When comparing cars, HP is meaningless. You want to know HP@RPM. So Hondas make 200hp but at 9,000rpm. Way different than a 3800 at say 5,000 RPM
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Report this Post07-01-2016 09:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lambo nut:

Oh crap, not this debate again!

Sure a 4 banger could make the same power as a V8, but for how long..
4 banger needs to be wound tight to do it, while the V8 won't be breaking a sweat.

Kevin

Edit to add, to answer the OP's question....no.



First of all, nobody is talking about a V8. The 6.7L Cummins turbo diesel in the Ram is a straight 6, not a V8.

And really, the issues you're whining about can all easily be mitigated. There's a reason 2.0L 4 cylinders don't come in trucks, even in the small ones. No cylinders is an option too. Electric motors make peak torque at 0 RPM, so an electric or hybrid could put out the same torque and be able to tow, though the range would be horrible.


It's not a debate. There are facts. Your refusal to accept facts doesn't not make any of your arguments valid.
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Report this Post07-01-2016 10:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

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quote
Originally posted by IanT720:

When comparing cars, HP is meaningless. You want to know HP@RPM. So Hondas make 200hp but at 9,000rpm. Way different than a 3800 at say 5,000 RPM


Comparing only HP in production cars is meaningless, regardless of what RPM the HP is made at.

Comparing a 2500 lbs Honda to a 4000 lbs Buick, based solely on peak HP numbers, even with RPM, is worthless.
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Report this Post07-01-2016 11:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Kinda comparing apples and oranges. There are different ways to make power and to use the power.
Bore, stroke, compression, transmission, differential, ...boost....

We had a thread about this before, I think it was in O/T. It was flat out asked something like "how come American cars cant rev to 10k rpm"
It was basically answered "they don't need to."

There is a reason freight trains have big pistons.

I looked up this question: How much Hp and Torque does a locomotive have?

-"3000 HP is typical.
4,700 amps of electrical current
64,000 pounds tractive force"

-"my father worked for General Motors Electoromotive Division (EMD), and built the engines. The engines range from V6 up to V16 and range in hp from about 5 or 6,000 up to about 25,000. He told me about a prototype V12 they built with two massive turbos that put out over 45,000 hp. But, these are diesel engines, and the torque numbers are much higher than the hp numbers. Another fact many people don't know is that the diesel engine in a locomotive today does not turn the wheels. It turns large (5-6 ft tall) alternators that in turn power large electric motors that turn the wheels. This is why some people call them diesel electric locomotives. Each alternator is big enough to walk inside and weighs more than 5-10 cars. I had a chance to see some of the engines once in a family day at his work, and if you are impressed with engines, you would be in awe if you saw one in person. "

-

But I see Many full size pickups now with turbo V6 gas engines. Can they haul things well? Not as well as a larger V8, and they cant as well as a dually with a better gear ratio for pulling...but those do weigh more.

Just thoughts

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 07-01-2016).]

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Report this Post07-01-2016 06:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:Your refusal to accept facts doesn't not make any of your arguments valid.


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Report this Post07-01-2016 10:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

There's a reason 2.0L 4 cylinders don't come in trucks, even in the small ones.



Well that is because they can't do the work of a real engine with torque. Pretty simple really. But don't let the real word get in the way of your circle jerk four cylinder fantasies.
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Report this Post07-01-2016 10:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lambo nut:
Well that is because they can't do the work of a real engine with torque. Pretty simple really. But don't let the real word get in the way of your circle jerk four cylinder fantasies.


Yep. Because 4 cylinder engines aren't real and don't make any torque at all.

Did you get a masters of engineering to tell you that, or did you read it on the internet?

Yeah, 4 bangers are junk:



Like the new 2.8 Duramax:



Colorado can't tow a 15,000 lbs load like a 3/4-1 ton full size heavy duty diesel truck can, but 369 lb-ft sure as hell doesn't sound like "no torque" to me. But it's a 4 cylinder, so it can't be a real engine with torque.
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Report this Post07-01-2016 10:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

Colorado can't tow a 15,000 lbs load like a 3/4-1 ton full size heavy duty diesel truck can,


And there you go. You can polish a turd all you want, it's still a turd.
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Report this Post07-01-2016 11:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lambo nut:
And there you go. You can polish a turd all you want, it's still a turd.


And there you go again. You think it's appropriate to go dropping your turds all over threads on this forum.

If you don't have anything useful to add to the thread, then how about maybe not spouting your v8 circle jerk in it? This thread isn't about how many cylinders an engine has, or how much you want to take the piss. Did you get outrun by some kid in a Honda today on your way home? Oh, poor Kevin. We're all very sad for you.

Back to bonzo's original question, yes, a 4 cylinder engine making the same torque curve as a 6 cylinder engine could perform the same in the same vehicle with the same gearing. You could have a 5.0 liter 4 cylinder too, if you wanted. What static displacement does, is make it easier to make big torque at low RPM, which is why you see massive displacement in large diesel generators or diesel engines that power trains and cruise ships, or in large earth movers or such.
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Report this Post07-01-2016 11:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


If you don't have anything useful to add to the thread,.


I haven't seen you add anything useful that pertains to the everyday real world.
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Report this Post07-01-2016 11:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lambo nut:

I haven't seen you add anything useful that pertains to the everyday real world.


So, is a 2.0l V8 better than 4.0l I4? Is a 4.5l V6 better than a 4.0l V8? Is a 3.0l V12 better than a 6.0l V8? Do you understand, at all, the relationship between cylinder count and displacement as it applies to engine design? If so, please share with the group.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 07-01-2016).]

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Report this Post07-01-2016 11:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:


So, is a 2.0l V8 better than 4.0l I4? Is a 4.5l V6 better than a 4.0l V8? Is a 3.0l V12 better than a 6.0l V8?



You are pulling extreme examples that are not seen on the road on a regular basis and proving my point about the EVERY DAY REAL WORLD.

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Report this Post07-02-2016 08:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lambo nut:


You are pulling extreme examples that are not seen on the road on a regular basis and proving my point about the EVERY DAY REAL WORLD.


You are just trolling, because you love pulling the detroit iron out of your spank bank.

This thread isn't asking about the EVERY DAY REAL WORLD which you obviously don't live in, since you are one of the SBC V8 circle-jerk crew. In the real world, a 4 cylinder 1.5l made roughly 1500 hp, and ruled the F1 circuit for a few years. In the real world, GM had a 1000hp 4 cylinder drag car. In the real world, a 2.8l turbo diesel makes more torque than GM's 4.3l V6 or the Gen III/IV 5.3l V8, and only about 20 lb-ft shy of the current Gen V 5.3l V8. IN THE REAL WORLD.

bonzo's question was about a 4 cylinder boasting the same torque as a 6.7L Cummins, which is still not a V8, and whether it would be able to tow as well. And the straight answer is mostly yes. There are a lot of variables which determine where it makes that peak torque, and what the curve would look like, with displacement being one of those variables.

So maybe you should pull your head out of your butt and its related V8 fantasy land, and back into the real world, and maybe try to stop being a troll in the process.

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Report this Post07-02-2016 09:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

This thread isn't asking about the EVERY DAY REAL WORLD which you obviously don't live in, since you are one of the SBC V8 circle-jerk crew. In the real world, a 4 cylinder 1.5l made roughly 1500 hp, and ruled the F1 circuit for a few years. In the real world, GM had a 1000hp 4 cylinder drag car. In the real world, a 2.8l turbo diesel makes more torque than GM's 4.3l V6 or the Gen III/IV 5.3l V8, and only about 20 lb-ft shy of the current Gen V 5.3l V8. IN THE REAL WORLD.



Once again, proving my point. You must not have read the original post very well.
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Report this Post07-02-2016 10:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The fundamental issues are heat management and the duration of the power event. To get 500 hp/tq you will generate a lot of combustion heat. If your engine is physically smaller and you are using some type of power adder to overcome the reduced displacement, you still have to deal with the same level of heat, but have fewer cylinders, and less surface area within the cylinders to spread the heat load that the internal components will be exposed to.

When the engine can't properly deal with the heat, detonation can occur, spark plug electrodes can melt, pistons can melt, rings can expand until the ends touch which binds them in their bores and breaks the ring lands, etc. The longer the power event, the more heat the components in the cylinder will be exposed to, which can be an issue. An engine could dyno 800 hp/tq, and make a few sub 10 second passes at the track. During these events the engine only sees the peak load for a handful seconds, however, if you continue the peak load event even longer (like a standing mile event or an extended racing loads) you will add even more heat which may or may not be an issue as it all depends on what conditions the engine was designed to withstand.

Heat management is one of the reasons diesel engines have the rings further from the top of the piston (to better isolate them from the combustion temps) than gas engines. Its also the reason for oil squirters on the back sides of pistons on several current factory supercharged/turbocharged engines as well as the specialized ceramic coatings available for pistons.

So back to the original question... yes a smaller 4cyl (with some type of forced induction) could accomplish the same specific task or power event as the inline 6 diesel... but its internal components will be significantly more stressed and would require a purpose built engine and components to do so.

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Report this Post07-02-2016 04:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lambo nut:No, I can't answer you're question so here's an excuse.


Exactly.
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Report this Post07-02-2016 04:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lambo nutSend a Private Message to Lambo nutEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:


Exactly.


I'm going back to see where you contibuted anything to this thread.
I'll be right back...
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Report this Post07-02-2016 04:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lambo nut:
I'm going back to see where you contibuted anything to this thread.
I'll be right back...


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Report this Post07-02-2016 08:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lambo nut:
I'm going back to see where you contibuted anything to this thread.
I'll be right back...


Take your time. Don't hurry back on my account.
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Report this Post07-03-2016 12:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Cylinder configuration doesn't really enter into it.....He was really asking about whether a 2 liter engine pulling 600 hp and big torque can pull the same load as a big turbo diesel.......And the answer is .....maybe....it all depends on a number of other parameters.

Small 4 cylinders are the correct engine in a small car, and a big turbo diesel is correct in a super duty truck. I would suspect that a 2 L engine pulling that kind of power could not be built to last, and also it would probably suck gas like wino.

The really sad thing is that we will be forced to buy Turbo engines in the future, so all cars will have turbo lag....the only possible solution is to have an electric motor on the turbo that can surge when you hit the throttle...and yes, they are working on that....But I really like the first rule of engineering; K.I.S.S.- Keep it simple, stupid! I really see future engines as a little tiny engine with 400 lbs of crap all over it to make it "Perform" properly.....I would be willing to give up a few MPG to have a simple, fat-power-curve bigger engine. My 3.4 basically goes over 100 hp by 2500, peaks at 160 @ 4500, and stays over 100 up to 5000- it is above 100 for 50% of it's rpm range(What the drive wheels see thru the trany).....An engine like the S2000 goes above 100 at 5000 rpm, and then continues up to 8000- That is 3000 rpm above 100 hp- and that is 38% of the total rpm....The S2000 makes incredible power out of a small engine, but it has a very narrow power band....The ultimate for power band tho, is the electric motor- the torque is 100% over the total rpm band!
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Report this Post07-03-2016 09:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:
The really sad thing is that we will be forced to buy Turbo engines in the future, so all cars will have turbo lag....the only possible solution is to have an electric motor on the turbo that can surge when you hit the throttle...and yes, they are working on that....But I really like the first rule of engineering; K.I.S.S.- Keep it simple, stupid! I really see future engines as a little tiny engine with 400 lbs of crap all over it to make it "Perform" properly.....I would be willing to give up a few MPG to have a simple, fat-power-curve bigger engine. My 3.4 basically goes over 100 hp by 2500, peaks at 160 @ 4500, and stays over 100 up to 5000- it is above 100 for 50% of it's rpm range(What the drive wheels see thru the trany).....An engine like the S2000 goes above 100 at 5000 rpm, and then continues up to 8000- That is 3000 rpm above 100 hp- and that is 38% of the total rpm....The S2000 makes incredible power out of a small engine, but it has a very narrow power band....The ultimate for power band tho, is the electric motor- the torque is 100% over the total rpm band!


A) No, the future isn't turbo engines. It's non-combustive motors, like electrics.

B) No, you can't make a statement about the power band by using HP, as HP is a function of RPM and Torque. You must use torque. The F20C in the S2000 doesn't make much low end torque, so the HP is obviously going to be low. Large displacement engines make more low end torque, so the HP numbers will be higher. What matters is how much torque is available across what RPM range. For example, the 1.4 turbo in my Cruze has > 80% of peak torque available from about 1800 RPM up to about 6000 RPM.

C) No, electric motors do not make peak torque at all RPM. Peak torque on an electric motor is at 0 RPM. It drops off as RPM increases.
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Report this Post07-03-2016 01:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, you can have the electrics- I like ICEs......And your cruze has turbo lag....fine for a transit booth, but for a sportscar it sucks; Same with automatic tranys- I would never tow my boat with a manual, but I also would never own a sportscar with an automatic...Right tool for the job....

As for the electric motors, well, I had heard that they had torque across the rev band...Maybe I should study up, or maybe I should just not buy an electric.......

My engine has power low and across 50% of it's rpm range- that simple; I can be in any gear and from 2500 to 5000 it will pull very well- The high-winder engine is not a "Miracle with no compromise"....The power band is very narrow- ON a track, it would be a blast constantly shifting to keep it in its power band, but any normal driving(Read MOST) they suck...The engine in your Del Sol has 160 HP @ 7500, and peak torque is at 7000- I wonder where it gets up to 100 hp? Maybe by 6000 rpm- 1/5 of your total rev band is above 100 hp.....

R&T tested a new Camaro SS against a Mustang GT; The SS was faster everywhere, and then was able to get better fuel economy by 2-3 mpg....Not even a question of which is better- It may be a little more fun on the track with the GT, but don't compete with that PR 6.2 V8...You'll get your "A" handed to you and then he can go home getting much better economy.....
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Report this Post07-03-2016 02:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would encourage you to look at some dynos and not make suppositions about power bands. Especially where cam phasing is present, you can't know anything about power bands from peak numbers.
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Report this Post07-03-2016 02:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:
My engine has power low and across 50% of it's rpm range- that simple; I can be in any gear and from 2500 to 5000 it will pull very well- The high-winder engine is not a "Miracle with no compromise"....The power band is very narrow- ON a track, it would be a blast constantly shifting to keep it in its power band, but any normal driving(Read MOST) they suck...The engine in your Del Sol has 160 HP @ 7500, and peak torque is at 7000- I wonder where it gets up to 100 hp? Maybe by 6000 rpm- 1/5 of your total rev band is above 100 hp.....


Again, you're talking about HP, which is a completely useless number.

The engine in the S2000 (F20C) has a very broad torque curve. But because it's a 2.0L N/A 4 cylinder, it doesn't make much total torque. It does however, make > 100 lbs-ft over about a 6000 RPM range. The 3.4 pushrod motor doesn't even have that much RPM.

Likewise, the B16A3 in my del Sol has a broad torque range, but again, doesn't make much of it. It's a fairly flat curve and barely gets above 100 lbs-ft, but most of it is available from 2500 RPM all the way up to fuel cut at like 8200 RPM.

The 3.4 pushrod on the other hand, in stock trim, makes quite a bit more peak torque, but has less than a 5000 RPM operational range (~600-5500), and torque starts dropping off very sharply around 4000-4500 RPM. By the time the 3.4 makes its peak HP number, it's already running short of air. The useful range of torque for the 3.4 is only from about 2200-4000 RPM, only an 1800 RPM range, or less than 1/3 the range of the F20C's available torque range.

The reason there aren't smaller displacement 4 cylinders in full size trucks, isn't because it's not possible, but because the cost and complexity issues have not resolved to the point where it's beneficial for auto makers to do so in production vehicles. If it were cost effective for GM to do so, there would be a 4 cylinder in every base 1/2 ton pickup they sell. Heck, they even put one back in the base Camaro now. A 2.0 turbo, which is only just shy of the HP numbers of the 93-97 F-body LT1 cars.
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Report this Post07-03-2016 05:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Torque is the measurement of an engines ability to twist, while HP is a measurement of what that twist can do- You can have a lot of HP but no torque, or a bunch of torque and no real HP.......HP will tell you how your car is going to accelerate.....You can look at HP at any rpm. And yes, you can super or turbocharge a 2L four to death, but it is not going to hold up.

The old Miller/Offy Indy engine was turboed like that, but it had no head gasket, so it could take really high boost.....There is still no real replacement for displacement......I'd like to see what your Del Sol would do against my Fiero 3.4....I'm getting around 6.5 to 60 and a 14.8 quarter.....
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Report this Post07-03-2016 06:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

Torque is the measurement of an engines ability to twist, while HP is a measurement of what that twist can do- You can have a lot of HP but no torque, or a bunch of torque and no real HP.......HP will tell you how your car is going to accelerate.....You can look at HP at any rpm. And yes, you can super or turbocharge a 2L four to death, but it is not going to hold up.

The old Miller/Offy Indy engine was turboed like that, but it had no head gasket, so it could take really high boost.....There is still no real replacement for displacement......I'd like to see what your Del Sol would do against my Fiero 3.4....I'm getting around 6.5 to 60 and a 14.8 quarter.....


I guess that's why Volvo has moved exclusively to 4 cylinder engines for their passenger cars. Subaru has practically set on 4 cylinder engines as well, only really varying to 6 for their larger vehicles. Volvo now has a tri-boosted 4 cylinder (supercharger and two turbos), which makes 450 HP.

Torque is exactly how much force an engine puts out. Knowing what that translates to in HP/PS/kW at some RPM really tells you very little about an engine. HP doesn't tell you at all how a car will accelerate. Let's use the engine in question as presented in the original post. Knowing that an engine makes 370 HP at 2800 RPM, tell me how the vehicle it's in will accelerate then; without knowing its displacement, actual torque curve, vehicle weight, coefficient of drag, frontal area, tire size, or transmission diff diff gearing.

You can't. All of that extra information is required to know how it will actually accelerate. Sure, you can look at a car, and make some slightly reasonable estimates about all of those values, and come to some conclusion, but with only knowing the peak HP and RPM it's produced at, you can't tell any useful information about an engine's performance, and especially not as it would be installed in an unknown vehicle.

EDIT: Oh, and if I threw a turbo on my del Sol tuned to be a "replacement for the displacement" of the 3.4L, it'd be making about 450 HP at the flywheel, and would do 1/4 mile in the 11s.

[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 07-03-2016).]

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quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Again, you're talking about HP, which is a completely useless number.

The engine in the S2000 (F20C) has a very broad torque curve. But because it's a 2.0L N/A 4 cylinder, it doesn't make much total torque. It does however, make > 100 lbs-ft over about a 6000 RPM range. The 3.4 pushrod motor doesn't even have that much RPM.

Likewise, the B16A3 in my del Sol has a broad torque range, but again, doesn't make much of it. It's a fairly flat curve and barely gets above 100 lbs-ft, but most of it is available from 2500 RPM all the way up to fuel cut at like 8200 RPM.

The 3.4 pushrod on the other hand, in stock trim, makes quite a bit more peak torque, but has less than a 5000 RPM operational range (~600-5500), and torque starts dropping off very sharply around 4000-4500 RPM. By the time the 3.4 makes its peak HP number, it's already running short of air. The useful range of torque for the 3.4 is only from about 2200-4000 RPM, only an 1800 RPM range, or less than 1/3 the range of the F20C's available torque range.

The reason there aren't smaller displacement 4 cylinders in full size trucks, isn't because it's not possible, but because the cost and complexity issues have not resolved to the point where it's beneficial for auto makers to do so in production vehicles. If it were cost effective for GM to do so, there would be a 4 cylinder in every base 1/2 ton pickup they sell. Heck, they even put one back in the base Camaro now. A 2.0 turbo, which is only just shy of the HP numbers of the 93-97 F-body LT1 cars.


I have a Del Sol VTEC also, and if I still had the stock engine, a Jackson supercharger would put it well out of the range of what many of the stock V8 Fieros can do (notice I said stock, not built). I don't have the stock engine though, I have an Integra Type R, which puts out 200 BHP, and about 140 lb/tq stock. Mine is slightly modded so the numbers would be a little higher. Being able to take it to 9k+ rpms is a huge benefit for top end. All while getting almost 30 mpg.
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Report this Post07-03-2016 07:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dobey......HP is a useless number? Yet that is exactly what moves your car......And I have been pointing out that HP peak is a useless number- It's the BAND of power....That is why the SS Camaro eats the Mustang....Better accel AND better MPG.

Bottom line, you create HP by pump air- a 3L turning 6000 and 6L turning 3000 basically pump the same amount of air. You guys rave about HP/L but what does that really get you? The only places where that counts is in racing classes and the Japanese tax system. A better measure of efficiency is HP/MPG, HP/LB, HP vs size of engine package....The LS and now the LT engines beat all the other engines in these parameters- And they have a very broad, flat power curve, meaning it pulls almost as hard at 3000 as at 6000. The latest version of the 60-V6, the 3500, has 220 hp and 200 Lb/Ft....And has 90% of its torque from 1500 to 5500.....It has basically the Same power curve as the S2000 engine- but at 2000 rpm lower down....and that makes it functionally a broader power band thru the gears....

If you are so enamored of the 4V DOHC engines, why don't you put one of them in your Fiero? You could install a N* or cross-deck a SHO V8 or some such. Your LS is supposedly going to have a bunch of HP at the peak, but your power band is going to be narrow compared to what a milder build would have.....

By the way, here is an interesting fact; The 1970 Cleveland 351 4BBL heads breath BETTER on the intake side than the new Ford Coyote 4V engine- The exhaust sucks because they had to dog-leg it around the old Mustang spring towers.
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Report this Post07-03-2016 07:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
work = Hp
Force is a pushing or pulling action of one body against another. Depending on the resistance to the application of force, it may or may not result in movement. Say you try to push on a stalled car with 125 pounds of force, but it remains stuck in the mud. You've exerted force, but no movement has occurred because the car (being heavier than you) has too much resistance.


If force is applied and movement does occur, you've performed work, or the movement of an object from one position to another. For example, if you use a hoist to lift a 600-pound engine 6 feet in the air, the work done would be 6 feet x 600 pounds or 3,600 foot-pounds (ft-lb).
Work = D (distance moved) x F (force applied)

Torque Explained
By definition, work is calculated as a vector force, exerted in a straight line. But engines (as well as nuts and bolts when they are tightened or loosened) rotate around an axis.

What is engine torque?
The expression of this rotational or twisting force around an axis is called torque, which is measured in units of force times distance from the axis of rotation. If you have a 1-foot-long wrench and you exert a force of 10 pounds on the end of it then you apply a torque of 10 pound-feet (10 lb-ft). If the wrench were 2 feet long, the same force would apply a torque of 20 lb-ft. When an engine is said to make "200 lb-ft of torque", it means that 200 pounds of force on a 1-foot lever is needed to stop its motion.
yes a 4 cylinder can make as much power as a 6 or 8 cylinder but the stress on the parts will be higher as the 4 cylinder has to make more power per cylinder

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 07-03-2016).]

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Report this Post07-03-2016 10:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:
Dobey......HP is a useless number? Yet that is exactly what moves your car......And I have been pointing out that HP peak is a useless number- It's the BAND of power....That is why the SS Camaro eats the Mustang....Better accel AND better MPG.

Bottom line, you create HP by pump air- a 3L turning 6000 and 6L turning 3000 basically pump the same amount of air. You guys rave about HP/L but what does that really get you? The only places where that counts is in racing classes and the Japanese tax system. A better measure of efficiency is HP/MPG, HP/LB, HP vs size of engine package....The LS and now the LT engines beat all the other engines in these parameters- And they have a very broad, flat power curve, meaning it pulls almost as hard at 3000 as at 6000. The latest version of the 60-V6, the 3500, has 220 hp and 200 Lb/Ft....And has 90% of its torque from 1500 to 5500.....It has basically the Same power curve as the S2000 engine- but at 2000 rpm lower down....and that makes it functionally a broader power band thru the gears....

If you are so enamored of the 4V DOHC engines, why don't you put one of them in your Fiero? You could install a N* or cross-deck a SHO V8 or some such. Your LS is supposedly going to have a bunch of HP at the peak, but your power band is going to be narrow compared to what a milder build would have.....

By the way, here is an interesting fact; The 1970 Cleveland 351 4BBL heads breath BETTER on the intake side than the new Ford Coyote 4V engine- The exhaust sucks because they had to dog-leg it around the old Mustang spring towers.


Yes, HP is a useless number for any actual comparisons. It's only good for the pointless "mine is more than yours" BS. No, HP is not what moves your car. Yes, the power (torque) curve is what matters. However, you keep talking about HP, and using an arbitrary point from which to measure, as a means to proclaim your argument as the fact. "Area Under the Curve" refers to torque, not HP, as HP is purely a function of torque, and if your torque curve is a flat line from 1800-6000 RPM, then HP will be a linear increase from 1800-6000 RPM, with both lines having the same value at 5252 RPM. If that curve is 100 lbs-ft of torque, then at 1800 RPM it will be about 34 HP, 100 HP at 5252 RPM, and 114 HP at 6000 RPM.

Camaro vs Mustang is irrelevant. We're not talking about GM vs Ford here. The question was if a 4 cylinder made the same power as a 6 cylinder turbo diesel, could it perform the same tasks. The short answer is "yes." The long answer is "it's wildly more complicated, and people who love bigger engines and don't understand the physics involved will argue with you til the death about it."

Bottom line is that HP is still a function of torque and RPM. Dynos do not measure HP. They measure torque. Torque is what matters. The availability of it (broad flat torque curve being optimal), and the ability to apply it against the surface a vehicle is travelling on (typically asphalt). A heavier and less aerodynamic vehicle requires more torque to accelerate than a smaller and more aerodynamic vehicle. This is basic physics.

I never once mentioned HP/L in this thread, so I don't know who the hell you're talking about with "you guys" here. And I sure as hell do not "rave about it" whenever I do mention it. HP/anything is a pretty useless measure of anything. The 3500 has more torque than the F20C does, because it has 1.5 more liters of displacement; not because it's a more efficient engine.

Why is it that it's apparently so impossible to have a meaningful technical discussion on this forum? Instead of attempting to understand or discuss the technical aspects of anything, you try to make it personal, by going on and on about your favorite engines, and then trying to attack me for disagreeing with your lust for less efficient large displacement V engines. My ability to understand the engineering and physics behind various engine platforms does not make me "enamored" with them. You are seriously grasping at straws by attacking my LS build. It is by no means going to have a narrow power band. You obviously don't understand engines, and this thread isn't about my build anyway; nor is it about your fetish for big engines. It was asking a specific question about the general capabilities of engines, were they so built to do said work.
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Report this Post07-04-2016 11:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wow......So HP has no meaning..........Well, all the measurements of ****(Power) are all wrong....Dobey, you just get on here to argue with people....And you yap about how great your 4V buzz-bomb engines are when the proof is that the LS/LT engines just keep kicking all the 4v engines butts.......You, sir, are a hypocrite, because You, sir, are putting an LS4 engine in your Fiero(Although, apparently, it will never be done- 5+ years and counting?)....Why didn't you buy a MR2 and turbo it to 100 psi? Buzzzy, buzzzy, buzzzy.......
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Report this Post07-04-2016 01:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In dobey's defense, it's pretty annoying when people post provably false "information" and then nobody bothers to assert some reality. Someone is going to find this conversation someday and then go tell their friends about the "flat torque output of an electric motor" etc. PFF shouldn't be youtube for cars, where everyone gets to say whatever they want regardless of the accuracy of the statement. Hopefully, future readers will read the whole conversation and walk away with a reasonable understanding.

What is, in particular, funny about your last statement is your assertion about pushrod vs. (I assume) Ford mod motors. Because the mod motor makes way more hp/l than the pushrods and Mustangs typically match Camaros in terms of specific output. Yet, despite similar horsepower numbers the Camaros typically beat the Mustang, as you pointed out earlier. Weird that in one moment you reject the idea of hp being not useful, and then in another give a clear, specific example of how hp is not a very useful measurement. :lol:

Also, not a single comment about fieroguru's spot-on post. Like the actual reason for the actual answer to the OP. Blew right past it, just so could work in a snide comment about buzz bomb motors. Kinda lame.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 07-04-2016).]

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Report this Post07-04-2016 02:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dobey Hp is the measurement of work being done by the torque as torque alone means nothing i can hang a 100 LB weight off one end of a 10 foot long horizontally mounted poll and the other end attached to a wall now there is 1000 ftlbs of torque being applied to the wall side but no work is being done so you really need to take both numbers and factor what is the best gear ratio tire size ect to find the gear ratio for optimal acceleration in a 1/4 mile or top end or street driving
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Report this Post07-04-2016 02:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
Also, not a single comment about fieroguru's spot-on post. Like the actual reason for the actual answer to the OP. Blew right past it, just so could work in a snide comment about buzz bomb motors. Kinda lame.


I didn't comment on fieroguru's post, because, as you said, it's spot on. But instead, because I said that yes, it is theoretically possible to build a 4 cylinder engine that can make a similar power curve to a 6 cylinder turbo diesel, in the second reply to this thread, I keep getting told how much of an idiot I am, and why I should be using a 4 cylinder that I somehow am now "enamored with" in my own build. Yay logic.
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Report this Post07-04-2016 02:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

Wow......So HP has no meaning..........Well, all the measurements of ****(Power) are all wrong....Dobey, you just get on here to argue with people....And you yap about how great your 4V buzz-bomb engines are when the proof is that the LS/LT engines just keep kicking all the 4v engines butts.......You, sir, are a hypocrite, because You, sir, are putting an LS4 engine in your Fiero(Although, apparently, it will never be done- 5+ years and counting?)....Why didn't you buy a MR2 and turbo it to 100 psi? Buzzzy, buzzzy, buzzzy.......


Well, the troll shows his face.

If you want my swap to be done as soon as possible, then you're more than welcome to provide me with the necessary funds for me to stop doing everything else so that I can get it done. Do you have a million dollars lying around you're ready to give away? You obviously don't have the expertise required to complete the build, so I surely can't ask you to do it for me. Obviously you're an impatient troll.

I don't want an MR2. If I wanted an MR2, then I'd already have one, or I'd go buy one. And if I did get an MR2, I'd probably put a Toyota V6 or V8 in it.

But if supporting my statements with facts and math makes me a hypocrite, then so be it. I'm a hypocrite for attempting to stick to the facts, instead of making personal attacks against you. Because clearly that's the way to prove that you are correct; or at least you apparently think it is.
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