Originally posted by zzzhuh: ... caused the engine to run lean at higher RPM's.
Anything that breathes as deeply as that intake most certainly does, is going to require the tune to be tweaked. That should be a given. If it doesn't, it's not worth doing.
If you are talking about the 2.8 dual intake, no. That was made by black top racing and didn't sell very well.
The intake was $2,000 by itself and caused the engine to run lean at higher RPM's.
BTR did mention that they will be designing a new one tho, so hopefully it is cheaper and they can give a guide to tuning the ECM to run it properly.
Actually we couldn't keep up with the demand, we had a 16 person waiting list who were begging us to put money down on one, but even at $2,000 the production process was crazy and not worth it:
We had to hand-fabricate the plenums, mill down a stock mid-intake and weld on a plenum mounting flange, port the mid-intake, manufacture throttle body adapters, manufacture a vacuum plenum, hand-fabricate the air intake pipes, modify both throttle bodies (remove IAC and TPS from one or the other), modify the PCV fittings, modify the vacuum lines, and manufacture (by hand) a throttle body linkage with throttle plate adjustment. Each one took probably $450 worth of materials and 40-50 hours of skilled fabricator labor.
We only sold 5 or 6 of them, but I wouldn't say they didn't sell well. Also, the intake didn't cause the engine to run lean at high RPM. Something in the tuning caused it to run rich at mid-high RPM. A simple ECU chip tune from Sinister Performance rectified the situation for $100.
The only way for us to build this style of product again is to incorporate some sort of CNC milling or 3D printing to replace some of the long hours custom fabricating different pieces. But even at $900, how many would we sell? Would it even be worth it?
-Chris Nelson
------------------ www.BlackTop.Racing For 2-seat Rear Wheel Drive Sports Car lighting, accessories and performance parts.
[This message has been edited by BlackTopRacing (edited 01-15-2016).]
The only way for us to build this style of product again is to incorporate some sort of CNC milling or 3D printing to replace some of the long hours custom fabricating different pieces. But even at $900, how many would we sell? Would it even be worth it?
-Chris Nelson
Hey Chris, the pictures you showed look great.
I definitely think there is a market for this. 2.8, 3.1, and 3.4 engine users could easily benefit from this. The look of them is very eye catching, and would stand out from the crowd. People like to do the DAWG modified plenum, and plenty of others for their cars. But this would be the #1 choice for users. I think you'd see a good increase in sales if the price was dropped a bit. Even $1,000 would be reasonable enough for the average Fiero owner to buy.
Correct me if I am wrong as I am older and can only compare this to the older cars I am more familiar with.
Didn't those old GTOs, Road Runners with the multiple carbs have different cams as well, because they couldn't handle that much gas with the original cams? To take advantage of all that extra gas the extra carbs made available. and if that is true wouldn't you need to change the cam in order to take full advantage of that?
Also many of those cars with multiple carbs were offset from each other to prevent the problem of lean running engines. Now just a thought but how about you put one of the extra TB intakes on the other end of the intake instead of on the same end of the intake? Hey I am no engineer but I did stay at a holiday in once.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Correct me if I am wrong as I am older and can only compare this to the older cars I am more familiar with.
Didn't those old GTOs, Road Runners with the multiple carbs have different cams as well, because they couldn't handle that much gas with the original cams? To take advantage of all that extra gas the extra carbs made available. and if that is true wouldn't you need to change the cam in order to take full advantage of that?
Also many of those cars with multiple carbs were offset from each other to prevent the problem of lean running engines. Now just a thought but how about you put one of the extra TB intakes on the other end of the intake instead of on the same end of the intake? Hey I am no engineer but I did stay at a holiday in once.
Steve
Except, the dual throttle body setup doesn't supply more fuel just more air. That doesn't mean a different cam may not be needed, just that this doesn't supply more fuel like 2 carbs could. You'd have to change the fuel map to get more fuel and if the current injectors can't supply enough fuel you'd have to change those to. So I think it is possible with something like this that a cam swap may be in order but not necessarily needed depending on what you can do with the fuel map and the current injectors.
Except, the dual throttle body setup doesn't supply more fuel just more air. That doesn't mean a different cam may not be needed, just that this doesn't supply more fuel like 2 carbs could. You'd have to change the fuel map to get more fuel and if the current injectors can't supply enough fuel you'd have to change those to. So I think it is possible with something like this that a cam swap may be in order but not necessarily needed depending on what you can do with the fuel map and the current injectors.
Like I said I know very little about this new fangled fuel injection, back when I was a kid and those dual quads and triple 2 barrels were made.
With that thought in mind I would think you would need different injectors as well. Sorry old timing man, the duel quads and triple 2 barrels also had more air intake as well as more fuel because of the size of the carbs air intakes. There has got to be some way to make this work as you said but I think a better cam for the mapping program would definitely be in order.
WTF was wrong with the old mechanical fuel injection system the old corvettes had? One of the worst systems of carb I have ever seen was on the Jaguar XKE. it took forever to set them up and then after you drove it you had to do it again. I worked for a Corvette restoration shop and he had bought a 64?, not really sure of the year XKE for his wife. You think our Fiero's are hard to get in and out of, try getting in and out of one of those.
Correct me if I am wrong as I am older and can only compare this to the older cars I am more familiar with.
Didn't those old GTOs, Road Runners with the multiple carbs have different cams as well, because they couldn't handle that much gas with the original cams? To take advantage of all that extra gas the extra carbs made available. and if that is true wouldn't you need to change the cam in order to take full advantage of that?
You're in the ballpark, so to speak. Of course, in a computer-controlled fuel injection system, you need to reprogram the computer for more aggressive fueling (to keep the engine from going too lean), because the intake only provides air.
And of course, to take full advantage of the extra air and fuel that's now available to the engine, a camshaft upgrade would be needed. And with the camshaft upgrade you usually also need to bump up the compression ratio, because a more aggressive camshaft will have more valve overlap, which reduces the dynamic compression. So you'll be shaving the heads, using a thinner head gasket, or swapping pistons.
This assumes you actually want to improve the performance of the engine. If the intake is just for looks, then slap it on and call it a day.
That is a beautiful piece of machinery and no doubt that 16 or so were lining up to buy but that is probably the entire worldwide market.
For most people its lipstick on a pig. The 2.8 is 30 year old iron that is almost a pointless endeavor to get more power out of it. Don't get me wrong the L44 is nice in its stock configuration but if that is not enough then you might as well spend 2 grand on a swap.
That is a beautiful piece of machinery and no doubt that 16 or so were lining up to buy but that is probably the entire worldwide market.
For most people its lipstick on a pig. The 2.8 is 30 year old iron that is almost a pointless endeavor to get more power out of it. Don't get me wrong the L44 is nice in its stock configuration but if that is not enough then you might as well spend 2 grand on a swap.
A beautiful product, no dispute what so ever there..... From the photo's, the workmanship is top notch to say the least! Also, with what is involved, $2,000 is a very good price.
That being said....... Why?
I mean seriously, at the end of the day it's still a 2.8 engine. Don't get me wrong and think I am trashing the 2.8. The 2.8 is a nice engine, but as we all know not a very good engine for tuning. What could the possible minimal gains in performance be? It's like buying High end, High performance racing tires and putting them on a Geo Metro! They are gonna look amazing, but you are not really going to go any faster
Give one of these a try, it should give you almost the same performance increase
[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 04-13-2016).]
Originally posted by JohnWPB: I mean seriously, at the end of the day it's still a 2.8 engine. Don't get me wrong and think I am trashing the 2.8. The 2.8 is a nice engine, but as we all know not a very good engine for tuning. What could the possible minimal gains in performance be? It's like buying High end, High performance racing tires and putting them on a Geo Metro! They are gonna look amazing, but you are not really going to go any faster
You'll go faster if your Metro has a V8 swap.
But seriously, the 2.8 can be built to be a reasonably powerful and efficient engine. It just came somewhat restricted from the factory, and without the turbo it was meant to have. There are also many other engines that are easy enough to swap in, and can be built to be more efficient and powerful than the 2.8, for cheaper. Some people would prefer to spend the money on a 2.8, even if it's just all for show, just as some people would prefer to spend the money for heavy body kits, stretches, etc… on a Fiero. Personal preference.
Give one of these a try, it should give you almost the same performance increase
Haha, we agree with you, but the electric supercharger is a low blow!! Not fair and not a great comparison haha
Untuned, with only doing the intake manifold swap we made +15RWHP and +24RWTQ. These are real numbers that made a significant difference in how the car performs. Think of the horsepower and torque numbers in ratios of overall performance and you can really understand how significant it is. Now think if you put it on a 2.8L (or 3.4L PR) with headers and a proper tune... There's potential. Expensive potential that's less impressive than an engine swap, but potential nonetheless!
------------------ www.BlackTop.Racing For 2-seat Rear Wheel Drive Sports Car lighting, accessories and performance parts.
Looks Like a really nice upgrade . To bad that some companies are just to lazy to see things through . I'm sure there is a market for a duel tbi intake out there for them . Maybe China, or Japan will pickup the slack on what most American manufacturers won't do .
The dual throttle body manifold looks nice but for $2,000 one would have to consider the cost vs the reward. For $2,000 and this manifold you get 175 ft lbs of torque but you can easily do a 4.9L/4T60e Cadillac engine swap, have 275 ft lbs of torque for the same money and have about the same weight as the stock powertrain. IMO, if you are looking for a real power increase, an engine swap is the ticket.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
With proper porting+polishing and some drilling and the DAWG mod and a bigger single throttle body, the stock intake can make 200hp with a 3.4 … yes even make power to 6000 rpm. Costs less than this mod but doesn't have the *wow* factor for sure.
cut .3" off both the upper and middle intake where they meet. This opens up that connection point 15% also lets you polish deeper into both pieces. Port+gasket match the lower intake and polish it. Back on the bottom side of the lower intake: cross drill some holes between the walls that separate the ports. Preferably 2 holes on each wall with the holes angled towards opposite ports.
My initial attempt was just gutting the bottom part of the lower intake which resulted in a mild mid-range torque reduction but a nice gain 4500-6000 rpm. Please note that the video/dyno below is with my heavy racing wheels and with stock wheels the graphs would be higher.
For reference: This is the same heads/engine that made 187 rwhp and 249 ft*lbs back in 2009 when I was using wheels that were only 1 pound heavier than stock. My current wheels (315/35/17) are 8 lbs heavier than stock and about an inch larger in total diameter. (25.4" vs 24.5") … so you see where the weight distribution has gone...
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 09-14-2019).]
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: The dual throttle body manifold looks nice but for $2,000 one would have to consider the cost vs the reward. For $2,000 and this manifold you get 175 ft lbs of torque but you can easily do a 4.9L/4T60e Cadillac engine swap, have 275 ft lbs of torque for the same money and have about the same weight as the stock powertrain. IMO, if you are looking for a real power increase, an engine swap is the ticket.
For many, the look is what they are after. When I do engine swaps, I easily have 40+ hrs and $500+ dollars in parts for completely unnecessary work to achieve the clutter free and simplified look. This is a lot of time and effort involved for zero performance gain... but worth every minute and penny to me.
I really like the BTR dual plenum intake. It had a more professional and finished look to it than most of the earlier versions, it certainly did improve performance, and is an upgrade people can do in a weekend without needing to drop the cradle, buy a bunch of swap parts, build/buy a swap harness and have the car out of commission for months. There definitely is a market for this type of product as well as other visual and performance upgrades for the 2.8/3.1/3.4 engine family.
