I was just reading thunderstrucks post on the great barn find and was thinking, what if someone had a car with a bad space frame and wanted to use one like that to rebuild his own car would the registration then have to be changed to the new vin and hence a new registration? as silly as it sounds I have an original yellow car and think thats pretty cool, probably a big majority of them have all went to the crusher already, so if my frame rotted and I wanted to change the frame would it still be an original yellow car? is there some way to change the vin plate (theoretically of course since we all know that would be illegal) to the new frame ?
If I had a pristine car that's not a Fiero and it had a rotted cowl and windshield that I swapped from another car, is it more unethical to use the donor cowl's pre-attached VIN or the VIN of the car that is 99% of the parts? There's vast shades of grey here.
I guess Fiero's are a little more toward the black end of it though. the space frame is most of the car, so the VIN really should follow it.
Also, with the RPO tag on the inner fender, there's that other document of proof.
If somehow Fiero's were worth enough money in the future to have people scrutinize things like this for an original yellow car, a replacement RPO tag would be a red flag.
So at the end of the day, do what's easier, originality be damned.
Originally posted by slicknick: Also, with the RPO tag on the inner fender, there's that other document of proof. If somehow Fiero's were worth enough money in the future to have people scrutinize things like this for an original yellow car, a replacement RPO tag would be a red flag.
So at the end of the day, do what's easier, originality be damned.
This would be bad news. Especially if you end up selling the car. The spaceframe is the car. You would be running ficticious tags in the mean time. Color of the car wouldn't make it anymore collectible or worth anymore money.
Id guess, without really knowing, the registration would have to be for the chassis number. On any kit car, unless you apply for a constructor VIN, the donor chassis number is the one registered and titled. In the case of say warranty having to replace a pickup chassis on a newer one, id think their is some kind of amendment made to the original title. I had a friend who had a 4 year old Exploder that the frame rails broke in half at the front control arms. They told her the chassis would have to be replaced and she had to pay for it since it was out of warranty. The cost was so high, she junked it. I dont know how the title would have been handled if shed fixed it.
The reality is that the VIN plates define the car no matter what they are attached to. So you can un-rivet the plates and drive a different Fiero under them and rivet them back on and that chassis now owns that VIN. If you legally own both vehicles who is going to know? Some people will yell "felony VIN swapping" but those laws were designed to stop people from taking STOLEN cars and replating them as legal cars. The law does consider intent and if your intent is to take the best parts of two cars you own then go for it. The DMV in Texas told me as much.
Here in Texas the Delorean Motor Company will sell you a 99% brand new DMC-12 except that they are not allowed to create new vehicles from scratch so they take an old VIN plate and attach it to a new car. I haven't heard anyone say that the Delorean motor company is guilty of a felony.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 11-12-2015).]
Originally posted by jscott1: The reality is that the VIN plates define the car no matter what they are attached to. So you can un-rivet the plates and drive a different Fiero under them and rivet them back on and that chassis now owns that VIN. If you legally own both vehicles who is going to know? Some people will yell "felony VIN swapping" but those laws were designed to stop people from taking STOLEN cars and replating them as legal cars. The law does consider intent and if your intent is to take the best parts of two cars you own then go for it. The DMV in Texas told me as much.
Here in Texas the Delorean Motor Company will sell you a 99% brand new DMC-12 except that they are not allowed to create new vehicles from scratch so they take an old VIN plate and attach it to a new car. I haven't heard anyone say that the Delorean motor company is guilty of a felony.
It's not just about stolen cars. If you swap the VIN plate, you must disclose that the odometer reading is now incorrect, whenever the car is sold, unless you swapped it onto a chassis with the exact same mileage as the car the VIN came from. If you choose to sell the car after, and fail to disclose such things, you could be charged with fraud or worse.
If your frame is really rotted out then either do the work to properly repair it, or strip the car and junk the frame, and swap the parts onto a new chassis with a different registration if you really must have that color/body car and can't find another.
As for DMC, what do you mean? They aren't taking VIN plates from old rusted out chassis, and welding them onto new cars. They are simply assembling existing parts. If they can't federally register new VINs, then that simply means they won't be able to sell any new cars as cars with VINs. They can be still sold and registered as kit cars. That's a completely different thing though.
[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 11-12-2015).]
IMO, it's a bad idea trying to swap VIN tags/plates (there's more than one on each vehicle). You'd probably get away with it... until you had a bad accident. And then the insurance company finds out through their adjuster that there's something funny going on, that the VIN plates appear to have been re-riveted ... and then they inform you that you're SOL as your insurance is now deemed to be invalid.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-12-2015).]
It is illegal to posses the rivits used by GM to attach the plates, they are special. For the barn find it would be better to swap everything over to a new frame. And as far as DMC, they already had the vins assigned to them, they are not making new cars, but selling old stock. Where like Shelby, is trying to make the old corbras with new parts, they way they get a way with it, is they don't sell an engine with the car, but say a ford dealer will install one for you. Words straight from them. (They are doing it because they got pissed at the kit car market not wanting to pay them royalties, so don't ever pay tons of money for a corbra kit just buy one from shelby, cheaper too, and real)
[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 11-12-2015).]
It is illegal to posses the rivits used by GM to attach the plates, they are special.
Exactly. Swapping VIN plates in not something easy to get away with... once someone (in a position of authority) has a reason to take a good close look.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-12-2015).]
As for DMC, what do you mean? They aren't taking VIN plates from old rusted out chassis, and welding them onto new cars. They are simply assembling existing parts. If they can't federally register new VINs, then that simply means they won't be able to sell any new cars as cars with VINs. They can be still sold and registered as kit cars. That's a completely different thing though.
I disagree with you about what to do with an old frame and as for DMC, yes they are. I saw it with my own eyes. They strip down old Deloreans until there is nothing left but a title and a VIN plate and bolt it onto a new frame populated with NOS parts. And they are registered as 1981 to 1983 DMC-12 as manufactured in Ireland, just like the cars they were originally. Not a Houston built kit car. If you don't believe me come to the factory and see for yourself.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 11-13-2015).]
It is illegal to posses the rivits used by GM to attach the plates, they are special. For the barn find it would be better to swap everything over to a new frame. And as far as DMC, they already had the vins assigned to them, they are not making new cars, but selling old stock.
I agree the rivets are special, but unless someone is looking for it, regular ole rivets will work.
And you contradict yourself on Delorean. They are doing the same thing as a person with two Fieros. They bolt the old VIN plate onto a brand new frame that they designed and built. Then put NOS parts on until they have a refurbished car with the original VIN. It's a 1981 to 1983 Delorean not a 2015 kit car. Maybe the other 49 states don't allow this, but this is how it's done in Texas. I've seen this with my own eyes and know this is how it is done.
This is what the old VIN plate is bolted to
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 11-13-2015).]
I agree the rivets are special, but unless someone is looking for it, regular ole rivets will work.
And you contradict yourself on Delorean. They are doing the same thing as a person with two Fieros. They bolt the old VIN plate onto a brand new frame that they designed and built. Then put NOS parts on until they have a refurbished car with the original VIN. It's a 1981 to 1983 Delorean not a 2015 kit car. Maybe the other 49 states don't allow this, but this is how it's done in Texas. I've seen this with my own eyes and know this is how it is done.
As far as I knew it was all old stock, including the frames
nice photoshoped pic. DMC's don't fly/hover, only in the movie.
EDIT to add: the last two pics have shading on the corners in a square pic, again looks real fake to me.
[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 11-13-2015).]
As far as I knew it was all old stock, including the frames
nice photoshoped pic. DMC's don't fly/hover, only in the movie.
EDIT to add: the last two pics have shading on the corners in a square pic, again looks real fake to me.
The photo on the lift I couldn't resist the temptation to remove the two post lift and make it hover. The rest of the photos are untouched. The shadows in the corners are due to an agressive wide angle lens used on the camera.
I spoke to the folks at DMC and they explained that they will rebuild a Delorean to any level desired by the customer. The ultimate rebuild they will use only the title and VIN plate and they will build the body and frame from scratch. They do not have NOS frames but they have all the tooling to build new ones. They also use as many NOS parts as desired or will update with more modern equipment.
The point is that at least in the great state of Texas there is nothing sacred about the frame. It can be replaced like any other part of the car.
Originally posted by jscott1: The point is that at least in the great state of Texas there is nothing sacred about the frame. It can be replaced like any other part of the car.
It has nothing to do with Texas. DMC just happens to be there. The VIN is not a state level thing. Just because it's being done, doesn't make it any less problematic when titling or selling the car. You can't just take a VIN plate to them without a title and expect to get something. You'll need full documentation proving that you own the VIN and it's not stolen. When you buy a remanufactured car from DMC where they stick your VIN plate on a new body and frame, there is sufficient documentation to prove things aren't stolen. but the mileage on the title and similar issues still remain. Likewise, if you take your car to the dealer and the frame has to be replaced because it's rusting out, and they can do such a replacement by swapping VINs, there will be sufficient documentation to show things aren't stolen.
On the other hand, if you do it in your back yard, you are also going to have to retain sufficient documentation, and check the box for odometer discrepancy, and/or possibly end up with a salvage title, when getting the title fixed or selling the car.
Changing the VIN tags isn't in itself necessarily illegal, but doing so can result in many issues and questions of what parts are legal or not. Swapped VIN plates will make it much harder to sell the car in the future, if you ever need to.
I noticed someone gave the impression that my barn find "Pilot Car" is in need of having its space frame swapped due to rot. It does not, it has 1900 miles on it. The OP was just using my car as a reference due to its condition and miles.
With that said...... Right or wrong, legal or illegal....... Doing swaps as a restoration process is a fact of restoration life. How many Z/28 Camaros, 400 Firebirds, Mustang GTs, etc., do you think there would be today if this practice didn't exist? A hell of a lot less than there is.
However, swapping a space frame can be extremely labor intensive which is what would make it prohibitive. Let's face the facts here, we are trying to keep a Pontiac Fiero alive here not a '69 COPO Camaro. The Fiero may have its day, but for now, few are worth an extensive restoration job. *SNIFF*
I agree. except that if you love the car it may be worth the swap to someone who likes wrenching and does it as a hobby (which pretty much this is) but you have to do it without the expectation that your getting your money back.it has to be a labor of love.
I agree. except that if you love the car it may be worth the swap to someone who likes wrenching and does it as a hobby (which pretty much this is) but you have to do it without the expectation that your getting your money back.it has to be a labor of love.
Such was the famous Ebay Super Duty Tempest.
The guy bought it on Ebay for just shy of a 1/4 million dollars, put another 1/4 million into restoring it (for profit), sent it to Mecum or Barrett-Jackson (can't remember) and it bid to about $400,000.00 on a no sale.
By changing the frame it's not longer an "original" yellow car. If you move the VIN plate, you have committed fraud to make a less valuable car appear to be an original yellow car. If you have frame rot and a spare space frame, cut out the rot and weld in replacement sections from the replacement space frame.
If I have an original GTO Judge that's rusted out and buy a Tempest and move all the Judge parts and VIN over - is it still an original Judge? That's what you're talking about doing.
so if my frame rotted and I wanted to change the frame would it still be an original yellow car? is there some way to change the vin plate (theoretically of course since we all know that would be illegal) to the new frame ?
As far as I know the VIN doesnt denote car color? The inner fender codes do.
As far as I know the VIN doesnt denote car color? The inner fender codes do.
The VIN denotes everything about the car.
Now the numerical VIN itself won't spell it out but the VIN as a whole, when checked, will tell everything about the vehicle just as a build sheet would.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 11-16-2015).]
By changing the frame it's not longer an "original" yellow car. If you move the VIN plate, you have committed fraud to make a less valuable car appear to be an original yellow car. If you have frame rot and a spare space frame, cut out the rot and weld in replacement sections from the replacement space frame.
If I have an original GTO Judge that's rusted out and buy a Tempest and move all the Judge parts and VIN over - is it still an original Judge? That's what you're talking about doing.
By changing the frame it's not longer an "original" yellow car. If you move the VIN plate, you have committed fraud to make a less valuable car appear to be an original yellow car. If you have frame rot and a spare space frame, cut out the rot and weld in replacement sections from the replacement space frame.
If I have an original GTO Judge that's rusted out and buy a Tempest and move all the Judge parts and VIN over - is it still an original Judge? That's what you're talking about doing.
If you have an original GTO Judge with a rotted cowl/firewall/windshield frame, would the donor Tempest's VIN change the entire car?
Like I said before, the fact that you'd have to put a repro RPO tag on the car to match everything up would ruin that car's "value" more than a swapped VIN. If there ever came a day when Fieros are actually worth money, both would need to check out as original.
Now the numerical VIN itself won't spell it out but the VIN as a whole, when checked, will tell everything about the vehicle just as a build sheet would.
No. The VIN by itself does not specify color, transmission, or most of the options on a car.
For a Fiero, you get year, body type, and engine. Paint code, radio options, suspension, etc… are not part of the VIN. The RPO sticker on the wheel well will tell you the full options list for the car though.
No. The VIN by itself does not specify color, transmission, or most of the options on a car.
For a Fiero, you get year, body type, and engine. Paint code, radio options, suspension, etc… are not part of the VIN. The RPO sticker on the wheel well will tell you the full options list for the car though.
So....
You are telling me that if you run a VIN number through a manufacturer's database it won't tell you what color it was and how it is equipped?
Seeing that a few here believe that the only way to find out what color a vehicle is and how it was built/equipped is by the "Identification Label", PHS (Pontiac Historical Services) must come out, look for the ID label on the left front apron, copy all those numbers down, go back to decipher them and then issue a build sheet with letter of authenticity.
You are telling me that if you run a VIN number through a manufacturer's database it won't tell you what color it was and how it is equipped?
LMAO
I'm telling you the VIN by itself doesn't tell you what original color it was.
Taking that VIN to the manufacturer and looking up the RPO sheet it was sold with, is not the same as decoding the VIN. You're only using the VIN as a point of reference to find other data. You can't look at a VIN on a car, go to the 9th digit and know what color originally came on the car.
I'm telling you the VIN by itself doesn't tell you what original color it was.
Taking that VIN to the manufacturer and looking up the RPO sheet it was sold with, is not the same as decoding the VIN. You're only using the VIN as a point of reference to find other data. You can't look at a VIN on a car, go to the 9th digit and know what color originally came on the car.
With 1 call and a VIN, I could get a key made.
You greatly underestimate the power of a VIN.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 11-16-2015).]
I don't underestimate anything. Not sure who you're calling, but knowing my VIN won't get you a key to my Fiero. Please point us to a web site where you can type in the VIN of a Fiero and get the entire options list for it, including the paint code. I put my Fiero VIN on the GM Owner Club web site and it won't even give me an owner manual. It won't tell me what color my 2009 Avalanche is either.
A relational database covering every VIN of every car ever sold in the US, along with all RPO codes for it, and the paint codes, would be a massive database. It's not something you're going to get for free by just punching a VIN into Google with, when you are looking to buy a car. Please show us such site you are using, if one actually exists. Maybe it'll tell me if my car was a PPG pace car too.
Eventhough I deal with many brands, Toyota, Hyundai/Kia, Chrysler, GM and Ford are what I deal with most. Because I deal with GM the least I can't remember what they call their system, but Ford's is called "OASIS".
The next time you're near a Ford dealership, ask them what "OASIS" can tell you just off of a VIN. For fun, take them a VIN.
Like I said, all manufacturers have a system and all systems will tell you everything about a vehicle from a VIN.
I won't even buy a truck until I run its VIN. I tow and I want to know everything about a truck I buy right down to its gear ratio.
. You can't just take a VIN plate to them without a title and expect to get something. .
Nowhere in my post did I suggest you could.
Try reading this again.
quote
The ultimate rebuild they will use only the title and VIN plate
Note the use of the word "AND"
And you make gross generalizations, the VIN and titling and registration are most definitely state level affairs. Some states don't even title 30 year old cars are record mileage on 30 year old cars making many of these items moot.
Yes if you swap all the parts on a Tempest with the intent to sell it as an original GTO you have committed fraud. If you have a Fiero or DMC and you swap all the parts onto a new frame 99.9% of the population doesn't care. For the 0.01% that does you tell them you swapped the frame and problem solved.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 11-17-2015).]
What years do these go back to? Can anyone just ask and get the data, does it cost?
Less than people think. I was told at a dealer back in '09 that getting keys cut for my '88 blazer would be hit or miss, as they were starting to wipe out the records for the older cars. Still got 'em though.
No. The VIN by itself does not specify color, transmission, or most of the options on a car.
For a Fiero, you get year, body type, and engine. Paint code, radio options, suspension, etc… are not part of the VIN. The RPO sticker on the wheel well will tell you the full options list for the car though.
Not necessarily. Lots of time I get a car in that for whatever reason is missing the color code. It may be a different door, console door, or they lost the original spare tire cover (some of the places you find color codes) so the RPO data is missing. I just call a local dealer with the VIN and they give me the proper code and name of that color on that vehicle.
Originally posted by rogergarrison: Not necessarily. Lots of time I get a car in that for whatever reason is missing the color code. It may be a different door, console door, or they lost the original spare tire cover (some of the places you find color codes) so the RPO data is missing. I just call a local dealer with the VIN and they give me the proper code and name of that color on that vehicle.
Yes, but only if they happen to have the VIN and all original options for the car in the database. You can't personally decipher from the VIN, what the original color of the car was.
Yes, relational databases are a thing, and it's possible that the VIN and all the data ever on a car you're looking at, are all stored in a database somewhere, but that database is not the VIN itself.
But you nor anyone else in this thread have posted a link to any web site where one can enter the VIN of a Fiero and find out all the options data for that VIN. If there is such a web site, then let it be known. I sure haven't found one. Furthermore, if you swap the VIN tags to a different chassis, that data may no longer be valid, because the suspension might be different, or any number of other things, which was the whole point of the thread.
... and then they inform you that you're SOL as your insurance is now deemed to be invalid.
