Pennock's Fiero Forum
  General Fiero Chat
  Crate engine value

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version


next newest topic | next oldest topic
Crate engine value by 85fieroguy
Started on: 11-08-2015 09:37 PM
Replies: 22 (879 views)
Last post by: rogergarrison on 11-17-2015 04:49 PM
85fieroguy
Member
Posts: 301
From: Chicago
Registered: Aug 2015


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-08-2015 09:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85fieroguySend a Private Message to 85fieroguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Interesting article in Car and Driver Sept. 2014 about crate engines as to the power per dollar efficiency. For a Fiero engine transplant..the winner is..Chevrolet 350 290 HP, 326 lb.ft., 352 lbs. $2560. Whats your opinion ??
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Khw
Member
Posts: 11139
From: South Weber, UT. U.S.A.
Registered: Jun 2008


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 134
Rate this member

Report this Post11-09-2015 01:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KhwClick Here to Email KhwSend a Private Message to KhwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Did it take in to consideration the cost of the adapter plate so you can use that engine in the Fiero? That may change the results a bit possibly. I mean a "basic" kit to make it so you can mount the RWD engine to a FWD transmission is around $1000.00. That changes it from just under $9.00 per HP to just over $12.00 per HP.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 11-09-2015).]

IP: Logged
Domtech
Member
Posts: 198
From: Bellevue, WA
Registered: Oct 2014


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-09-2015 01:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DomtechClick Here to Email DomtechSend a Private Message to DomtechEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If this is what you are referring to, than it is just a comparison of crate engine values.
It is lacking tons of engines that people commonly swap.
IP: Logged
Khw
Member
Posts: 11139
From: South Weber, UT. U.S.A.
Registered: Jun 2008


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 134
Rate this member

Report this Post11-09-2015 01:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KhwClick Here to Email KhwSend a Private Message to KhwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Domtech:

If this is what you are referring to, than it is just a comparison of crate engine values.
It is lacking tons of engines that people commonly swap.


Considering I don't see any of the common V6 swaps on that list, I have to agree.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 11-09-2015).]

IP: Logged
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post11-09-2015 09:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Khw:

Did it take in to consideration the cost of the adapter plate so you can use that engine in the Fiero? That may change the results a bit possibly. I mean a "basic" kit to make it so you can mount the RWD engine to a FWD transmission is around $1000.00. That changes it from just under $9.00 per HP to just over $12.00 per HP.



Of course it's not taking into consideration many of the things which are required to actually make that power. It's only considering peak rated HP (which is a very useless number by itself), and doesn't consider cost of exhaust, carb, mounts, and accessories, needed to make the engine work in the cars it would be swapped into. It's a list of crate motors commonly put into classic cars that are longitudinally mounted front-engine cars, and not an entirely proper comparison.

For a Fiero there are definitely much better options available. If you're building a classic muscle car and only care about straight line performance, then wanking to peak HP might do it for you. But peak numbers don't actually tell you anything about the performance of an engine, or the car it's in, nor about its fuel economy or maintenance cost for the life of the engine.
IP: Logged
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post11-09-2015 09:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

11572 posts
Member since Sep 2001
 
quote
Originally posted by 85fieroguy:

Interesting article in Car and Driver Sept. 2014 about crate engines as to the power per dollar efficiency. For a Fiero engine transplant..the winner is..Chevrolet 350 290 HP, 326 lb.ft., 352 lbs. $2560. Whats your opinion ??


The list you're referencing doesn't say anything about Fieros. You're taking some overly simplified values and trying to apply them to a case not even considered in the listing, which doesn't work.
IP: Logged
Thunderstruck GT
Member
Posts: 2657
From:
Registered: Oct 2015


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 98
Rate this member

Report this Post11-09-2015 09:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Thunderstruck GTSend a Private Message to Thunderstruck GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Many/most "crate" engines have internals that are like a box of chocolates.

You never know what you're gonna get.
IP: Logged
jscott1
Member
Posts: 21674
From: Houston, TX , USA
Registered: Dec 2001


Feedback score:    (15)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 415
Rate this member

Report this Post11-10-2015 12:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Khw:


Considering I don't see any of the common V6 swaps on that list, I have to agree.



I guess you are not familiar with the crate motor market... good luck finding a V6 on the list. GM used to sell the 3.4 pushrod, but they probably don't anymore. About 99% of the crate motors are V8. Most of the engines people are swapping from the junk yard are no longer in production let alone available in crate form.
IP: Logged
Khw
Member
Posts: 11139
From: South Weber, UT. U.S.A.
Registered: Jun 2008


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 134
Rate this member

Report this Post11-10-2015 01:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KhwClick Here to Email KhwSend a Private Message to KhwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


I guess you are not familiar with the crate motor market... good luck finding a V6 on the list. GM used to sell the 3.4 pushrod, but they probably don't anymore. About 99% of the crate motors are V8. Most of the engines people are swapping from the junk yard are no longer in production let alone available in crate form.


There was a post on here in either the tech section or GFC, I don't remember which, with a link to crate 3800's. I did a search and found a link to one pretty quickly although without calling that doesn't mean they still have them.
http://www.crateenginedepot...-89017861-P9427.aspx

I know when I was looking for a engine back in the early 90's there were crate Nissan Z24 4 cylinder engines available for my 84 Nissan 720. The cost was about 3x that of a reman but they were available. Also when I changed engines for a Doctor in his 09 Malibu recently he had me look into engines and get him costs. Crate 2.4 Ecotecs were available but with the cost difference he chose to go with the 22,000 mile used engine instead.

I get what your saying though, V8's may be the most common but that doesn't mean only V8's are out there.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 11-10-2015).]

IP: Logged
jscott1
Member
Posts: 21674
From: Houston, TX , USA
Registered: Dec 2001


Feedback score:    (15)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 415
Rate this member

Report this Post11-10-2015 01:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Khw:


There was a post on here in either the tech section or GFC, I don't remember which, with a link to crate 3800's. I did a search and found a link to one pretty quickly although without calling that doesn't mean they still have them.
http://www.crateenginedepot...-89017861-P9427.aspx

I know when I was looking for a engine back in the early 90's there were crate Nissan Z24 4 cylinder engines available for my 84 Nissan 720. The cost was about 3x that of a reman but they were available. Also when I changed engines for a Doctor in his 09 Malibu recently he had me look into engines and get him costs. Crate 2.4 Ecotecs were available but with the cost difference he chose to go with the 22,000 mile used engine instead.

I get what your saying though, V8's may be the most common but that doesn't mean only V8's are out there.



I guess I should have said that GM no longer sells crate V6... the ones from Crate engine depot are new old stock. They stopped making the 3800 at least 6 years ago. But my point is that there is very small to zero market for a crate V6. The folks out there buying crate motors are buying V8 for front engine longitudinal swaps. Transverse guys like us exist but we are a niche product for sure.
IP: Logged
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post11-10-2015 08:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:
I guess I should have said that GM no longer sells crate V6... the ones from Crate engine depot are new old stock. They stopped making the 3800 at least 6 years ago. But my point is that there is very small to zero market for a crate V6. The folks out there buying crate motors are buying V8 for front engine longitudinal swaps. Transverse guys like us exist but we are a niche product for sure.


The only non-V8 "crate" motor from Chevrolet Performance (GMPP) is the LTG Ecotec. You can still however order up any current or very recent production V6 or Ecotec from a GM dealer. You're just not going to find any old V6 or 4 cylinder engines from the 90s, like the 3.4, from a dealer.
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Formula88
Member
Posts: 53788
From: Raleigh NC
Registered: Jan 2001


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 555
Rate this member

Report this Post11-10-2015 11:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


I guess I should have said that GM no longer sells crate V6... the ones from Crate engine depot are new old stock. They stopped making the 3800 at least 6 years ago. But my point is that there is very small to zero market for a crate V6. The folks out there buying crate motors are buying V8 for front engine longitudinal swaps. Transverse guys like us exist but we are a niche product for sure.


And typically the crate V6 engines were service replacements that weren't much more than long blocks in some cases. A service replacement 350 would be even cheaper than the 290HP 350 shown in the chart. (less powerful, too since it would have been a pre-LS truck 5.7L service engine most likely)
IP: Logged
rogergarrison
Member
Posts: 49601
From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 552
Rate this member

Report this Post11-13-2015 09:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
https://www.google.com/webh...es+for+sale&tbm=shop

just took me 20 seconds to find.
IP: Logged
jaskispyder
Member
Posts: 21510
From: Northern MI
Registered: Jun 2002


Feedback score:    (22)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 205
Rate this member

Report this Post11-13-2015 09:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

https://www.google.com/webh...es+for+sale&tbm=shop

just took me 20 seconds to find.


Devil is in the details.... it is easy to use the keyword "crate" in your page content, so it appears on a search from Google Shopping.

The Fiero engine is a rebuild...
http://www.powertrainproduc...LTjckCFYRDaQoduBkFyg

Another engine is USED....
http://www.purzauto.com/Par...HTjckCFQuGaQodD2QOJw

Others are listed as "refurbished".....

None of these are "Crate" engines.
IP: Logged
rogergarrison
Member
Posts: 49601
From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 552
Rate this member

Report this Post11-14-2015 09:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Your posts always show up right on my tail. You follow me around all the time. I did not search specifically for Fiero engines...only what they called crate V6 engines. There are 4.3, 3.4, etc all listed. I called some of them and they were new assembled engines and rebuilt ones from factories. So you found 3 or 4 out of a 100. Good job.

Im sure if I spent more than a minute, I could find 2.8s too. The whole point was they said you cant find any replacement (crate) v6 engines. 'Crate' engines do not have to be brand new. Its simply a complete engine, finished to the degree you want...short block, long block, ready to run, etc. In case you need the definition of a crate motor :

http://www.ehow.com/about_5...10_crate-motor_.html


http://www.powertrainproduc...CQkMkCFUM2gQodPmMLig
http://www.erlperformance.c...OQkMkCFdgLgQody0AA6w
http://www.mondellotwister.com/index.htm

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 11-14-2015).]

IP: Logged
Raydar
Member
Posts: 38922
From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country.
Registered: Oct 1999


Feedback score:    (12)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 455
Rate this member

Report this Post11-14-2015 11:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
LZ9

They also offer remans.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-14-2015).]

IP: Logged
rogergarrison
Member
Posts: 49601
From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 552
Rate this member

Report this Post11-15-2015 07:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There ya go and im sure there are many others if you look for a while. A 'crate' engine simply means an engine thats shipped to you in a crate or pallet. Seems some think its only an all brand new OEM built factory engine.
IP: Logged
jscott1
Member
Posts: 21674
From: Houston, TX , USA
Registered: Dec 2001


Feedback score:    (15)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 415
Rate this member

Report this Post11-16-2015 01:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

Your posts always show up right on my tail. You follow me around all the time. I did not search specifically for Fiero engines...only what they called crate V6 engines. There are 4.3, 3.4, etc all listed. I called some of them and they were new assembled engines and rebuilt ones from factories. So you found 3 or 4 out of a 100. Good job.

Im sure if I spent more than a minute, I could find 2.8s too. The whole point was they said you cant find any replacement (crate) v6 engines. 'Crate' engines do not have to be brand new. Its simply a complete engine, finished to the degree you want...short block, long block, ready to run, etc. In case you need the definition of a crate motor :

http://www.ehow.com/about_5...10_crate-motor_.html


http://www.powertrainproduc...CQkMkCFUM2gQodPmMLig
http://www.erlperformance.c...OQkMkCFdgLgQody0AA6w
http://www.mondellotwister.com/index.htm



Sorry but none of these fit MY definition of crate engine....which is a zero miles brand new engine from the original manufacturer.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 11-16-2015).]

IP: Logged
jscott1
Member
Posts: 21674
From: Houston, TX , USA
Registered: Dec 2001


Feedback score:    (15)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 415
Rate this member

Report this Post11-16-2015 01:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

jscott1

21674 posts
Member since Dec 2001
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

There ya go and im sure there are many others if you look for a while. A 'crate' engine simply means an engine thats shipped to you in a crate or pallet. Seems some think its only an all brand new OEM built factory engine.


Yes that is the definition that I use... a crate engine is a brand new zero miles engine from the original manufacturer. Yeah sure a junk yard can crate up a used piece of junk and ship it to you but that does not make it a crate engine in my book.
IP: Logged
jaskispyder
Member
Posts: 21510
From: Northern MI
Registered: Jun 2002


Feedback score:    (22)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 205
Rate this member

Report this Post11-16-2015 07:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

A 'crate' engine simply means an engine thats shipped to you in a crate or pallet.




IP: Logged
rogergarrison
Member
Posts: 49601
From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 552
Rate this member

Report this Post11-16-2015 06:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just stating what the exact definition is. I consider it a crate an engine if built by a reputable shop with all new, not necessarily OEM, parts on a new or seasoned block with heads and pretty much complete - except for exhaust, intake, carb/FI, alternator, maybe water pump. Jasper fpr example makes/sells rebuilt/ crate engines. Jegs amd Summit sell rebuilt/crate engines. Those all fit MY definition. Even though it fits the technical definition, I dont consider any used engine a crate engine in any case.
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Thunderstruck GT
Member
Posts: 2657
From:
Registered: Oct 2015


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 98
Rate this member

Report this Post11-16-2015 06:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Thunderstruck GTSend a Private Message to Thunderstruck GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

Just stating what the exact definition is. I consider it a crate an engine if built by a reputable shop with all new, not necessarily OEM, parts on a new or seasoned block with heads and pretty much complete - except for exhaust, intake, carb/FI, alternator, maybe water pump. Jasper fpr example makes/sells rebuilt/ crate engines. Jegs amd Summit sell rebuilt/crate engines. Those all fit MY definition. Even though it fits the technical definition, I dont consider any used engine a crate engine in any case.


The term "crate engine" is often over used, over stated and mis-used.

Just like "Rat Rod", "Barn Find", "All Original", and "N.O.S."
IP: Logged
rogergarrison
Member
Posts: 49601
From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 552
Rate this member

Report this Post11-17-2015 04:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Those are all pretty clear cut to me.

rat rod = homemade car built out of parts of many random parts and all usually in their natural condition.

barn find= a car thats been stored in some kind of shelter and out of sight for 30 years or more. Dont really refer to condition, but generally a pretty much intact vehicle.

All original = car with the vast majority of the parts on it still the same as it came with from the factory. If I remember, Corvette Gold award for an original car, must be at least 4/5 of the body and interior must be the same on it new, and the engine, trans and rear end must be number matching. You could do a valve job, or replace a part like a carb with a new one if that replacement is identical to the one on it from the factory. You could repair like a damaged quarter panel and repaint it (up to 20%).

NOS = is simple. It must be a factory part as installed on the assembly line, and be in an unsold, unused condition...usually in its original packaging. New Old Stock.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 11-17-2015).]

IP: Logged

next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock