The thing to do is swap, at least around here. But, is there still a market for Turbo/Supercharged kits for stock motors? Headers? FI/ECM upgrades? Longevity aside. I imagine there are a ton of young kids out there looking to beat the crap out of their old Fiero, that can't handle a swap or don't have the know how to perform one. First thing most people look for are kits. Something you can build with instructions and be done. No hunting for parts and endless research
Probably a waste of time. Better to build one for Civic, Ecotec, VW, etc. You get the occasional teenager who likes the look of Fieros and buys one, but don't expect some sudden resurgence of interest from anyone. These cars are all but forgotten by almost everyone and there is nothing wrong with that
There isn't even a reliable source for 3800 swap kits or V8 swap kits (with Archie retiring), and that is a far more sensible upgrade due to better motor durability.
You get the occasional teenager who likes the look of Fieros and buys one, but don't expect some sudden resurgence of interest from anyone. These cars are all but forgotten by almost everyone and there is nothing wrong with that
There are three kids with them at a local district high school here, and my daughter drives (drove...just graduated) one to her school in the same district. While not overwhelming, three is certainly more than kids had at my high school when I was there.
The "kits" would be 4 times what most kids pay for the car.. anyone into the life of speed, they might junkyard crawl.. and look for a Mopar 2.2 turbo and a cheap mega squirt II to control it..
and have 200-300 bucks into it.. as most of their friends in the hobby are used to turbo installs, etc..
Originally posted by cam-a-lot: There isn't even a reliable source for 3800 swap kits or V8 swap kits (with Archie retiring), and that is a far more sensible upgrade due to better motor durability.
Archie is still selling kits. He just doesn't have a shop for doing the installs. The kits aren't going anywhere (at least right now). He's only semi-retired.
Other than stuff that will also adapt to a 3.4 - headers, high flow manifolds like the Trueleo, etc. - probably not. (Although Francis has stopped production due to health reasons, last I heard, so there may be a market.)
Although I was elated when I found a "never run" Hooker Tri-Y header for my SD4, that is an even more limited market. You might sell two of those in a year. (Whodeanie was reproducing those, before his business collapsed under its own weight, but I don't know how many he sold.)
------------------ Raydar 88 Formula IMSA Fastback. 4.9, NVG T550 Praise the Lowered!
If you are looking for a big jump in performance the swap is the way to go but not all Fiero owners are looking for the 10-12 second 1/4 mile. . If I judge by the cars that I've seen at the shows this year, the 2.8L still seems like the preferred engine by most Fiero enthusiasts. There is a large segment of this market that can live with the performance of the 2.8L and/or want to keep their cars stock. There is also the in-between market of those looking for a bit more power but not looking to go the all out swap route. The 3.1L and 3.4L fit in here and the 60* V6 part bolt right on. There is also the diehard 2M4 people that enjoy the economy, style and just driving it.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 06-21-2015).]
Who said high performance? You can reliably add 30hp to either the Duke or L44, provided they are in good shape. For the people who actually want to spend money on a live tune and engine monitoring equipment, that number can be a good deal higher.
I have seen the same thing Dennis. Every show I've gone to, the majority of the NICE Fieros are stock 2.8 or swapped 3.4PR.
Originally posted by Slammed: Who said high performance? You can reliably add 30hp to either the Duke or L44, provided they are in good shape. For the people who actually want to spend money on a live tune and engine monitoring equipment, that number can be a good deal higher.
I have seen the same thing Dennis. Every show I've gone to, the majority of the NICE Fieros are stock 2.8 or swapped 3.4PR.
Truleo is toast?
As far as I know, production of the Trueleo intake and exhaust components was stopped due to health issues. I don't know if they are back making the parts again. I don't know if they're willing to sell the designs/jigs/rights to product the parts, but you can always ask I guess. http://www.trueleo.com/contact_info.htm
I'm not sure what you consider "high performance" if adding 30hp to a duke or the 2.8 isn't that. Adding 30hp to the duke is a 33% increase in power output, and would be about a 20% increase on the 2.8. It might not be a race car by today's standards, but for a 30 year old engine with probably over 100K on the clock, I'd certainly call the upgrades necessary to achieve that, as high performance.
Like was already said though, most people don't want to spend more on upgrades, than they did for the car. There will be a few people that might buy such a turbo kit, or intake, headers, etc… but I wouldn't expect to be selling more than a few of such items. Even with a kit and instructions, things like headers, a turbo, or intake manifold, can be difficult to install on a Fiero, due to how the engine fits in the bay, and how certain OEM parts are designed. When you start pulling parts off a 30 year old car, expecting to do a quick install of something, you run the risk of breaking bolts or damaging other components in the process, leading to a lot more work, and more money, being spent. Exhaust bolts are notorious for being broken, as are the brittle plastic vacuum lines. For someone who has a freshly built engine, and used some upgraded components, such as the stainless vacuum line kit, this won't be an issue. But for someone who got a car that's actually been driven for the last 30 years, and paid $900 for it, such things can end badly.
Some people may actually be interested in such parts. Some will even say they are and that they'll buy them if you make them, and then you'll never here from those people again. As long as you're willing to lose money to bring such parts to market, I say go for it. Whatever you spend on research and design of some of the things you mentioned, you will likely not make back in volume (because there just aren't that many Fieros left, and much fewer than that which are drivable and have an owner who'd buy such parts), or profit margin (because you run the risk of pricing too high for even selling a single unit to do so). It'll be interesting to see how many sets of fastback tail light lenses you sell, at what price, and how much you spent on R&D to get a usable part in production.
As far as I know, production of the Trueleo intake and exhaust components was stopped due to health issues. I don't know if they are back making the parts again. I don't know if they're willing to sell the designs/jigs/rights to product the parts, but you can always ask I guess. http://www.trueleo.com/contact_info.htm
I'm not sure what you consider "high performance" if adding 30hp to a duke or the 2.8 isn't that. Adding 30hp to the duke is a 33% increase in power output, and would be about a 20% increase on the 2.8. It might not be a race car by today's standards, but for a 30 year old engine with probably over 100K on the clock, I'd certainly call the upgrades necessary to achieve that, as high performance.
Like was already said though, most people don't want to spend more on upgrades, than they did for the car. There will be a few people that might buy such a turbo kit, or intake, headers, etc… but I wouldn't expect to be selling more than a few of such items. Even with a kit and instructions, things like headers, a turbo, or intake manifold, can be difficult to install on a Fiero, due to how the engine fits in the bay, and how certain OEM parts are designed. When you start pulling parts off a 30 year old car, expecting to do a quick install of something, you run the risk of breaking bolts or damaging other components in the process, leading to a lot more work, and more money, being spent. Exhaust bolts are notorious for being broken, as are the brittle plastic vacuum lines. For someone who has a freshly built engine, and used some upgraded components, such as the stainless vacuum line kit, this won't be an issue. But for someone who got a car that's actually been driven for the last 30 years, and paid $900 for it, such things can end badly.
Some people may actually be interested in such parts. Some will even say they are and that they'll buy them if you make them, and then you'll never here from those people again. As long as you're willing to lose money to bring such parts to market, I say go for it. Whatever you spend on research and design of some of the things you mentioned, you will likely not make back in volume (because there just aren't that many Fieros left, and much fewer than that which are drivable and have an owner who'd buy such parts), or profit margin (because you run the risk of pricing too high for even selling a single unit to do so). It'll be interesting to see how many sets of fastback tail light lenses you sell, at what price, and how much you spent on R&D to get a usable part in production.
I'm not a fan of the Truleo design with the headers or intake mani. We've been in business a long time and R&D for these kinds of things is not much. I have an m45 and m62 set up sitting on the shelf for both the duke and 2.8 that I built and used with great success many years ago. I've got 4-2-1 stainless headers for the duke ready to ship next week, if they would sell. All things would be built in house. I don't know about the whole thing. It's just for conversation
A note about the duke. The duke should have been an all day every day 115hp minimum motor from the very beginning in the Fiero. The bottom end was fine(for that level), but the cylinder head design didn't really change. It was just slightly improved over more than a decade. Ports are tiny, valves are tiny, valve and runner angles are garbage.
It would be a real jerk move to say how much was spent on the tail lights. We will make a profit.
[This message has been edited by Slammed (edited 06-21-2015).]
If there were reliable proven parts to improve the performance of the L44 I'd be well into that. I have done the 3800 thing before and it was a riot, but there's aspects of the standard 2.8 I prefer much more and although a 3.4PR would be worthwhile, the only show I have of obtaining one is to buy a complete Camaro with it. What sort of performance parts did you have in mind Slammed?
If there were reliable proven parts to improve the performance of the L44 I'd be well into that. I have done the 3800 thing before and it was a riot, but there's aspects of the standard 2.8 I prefer much more and although a 3.4PR would be worthwhile, the only show I have of obtaining one is to buy a complete Camaro with it. What sort of performance parts did you have in mind Slammed?
On the other hand, it might also be cheaper to buy a complete local car for you, than shipping a turbo/blower kit to NZ.
Originally posted by Slammed: You can reliably add 30hp to either the Duke or L44, provided they are in good shape. For the people who actually want to spend money on a live tune and engine monitoring equipment, that number can be a good deal higher.
Good luck... Older "duke" have big problems that causes many warranty/recall engine replacements. You take a big gable on upgradings 84 engines because Rods and/or Block can break.
4 versions of L4 used in Fiero and major different in 86-87 year "wall" and many parts won't cross that wall. 84 85 86 have "minor" changes that makes headaches too. See my Cave, Duke Quick Ref
Cheap to Free HP then always check the gas pedal makes TB/TBI to reach WOT. Many Fiero don't because of whatever reason(s), owners never even bother to check but then owners say Fiero are slow. I seen several reach only 75-80% of Max Throttle when pedal is floored. See my Cave, Throttle Cable
Example old upgrade... Adding a header and big 300 series TBI for 86 & back only adds maybe a few HP but cost allot. (Holly sold both upgrades) Needs major work for the engine to use better flow. Worse, They do all that but never bother to check the TBI reaches WOT.
GM final version for 1991/92 is rated ~115HP.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Production and sales of this stopped abruptly a few years ago . There IS demand if the price is reasonable. I recall that this setup, (with TBs and CAIs) sold for approx. $1,200.00 ? (someone will correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure...) Applicable for both 2.8 and 3.4
Its welded to an OEM LIM
Performance is undocumented, but verbally reported to be good.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 06-22-2015).]
I could see a "fiero" intake modeled after the stock 2.8 v6 that was designed to feed a leaned on 3.4 having a market.. I could also see a market for a intake that let you bolt the 3800 s/c onto the 60* v's The market for parts that work on the stock drivetrain as not everyone wants to swap engine families.
A main bearing cap stud girdle that ties the bottom of the duke together would have a market.. as then you can bolt a turbo on it, and not worry about the main webbing. getting scat or eagle to make a steel forged 2.5 or longer arm fully counter weighted crank that bolt in..no machining unlike the boat crank.. would have a market.. if the cost wasn't huge, but that's the problem, they can sell small block chevy ford steel forged cranks for 4-5 hundred because of volume.. anything for these cars will be low volume.. and the price goes up when you make small runs. and that limits buyers even more..
the v8 swap archie has the whole kit so you can do it.. the 3.8 swaps biggest problem is there isn't a one stop kit to order, The other part of that is the Fiero world is still stuck on using the g.m. computer to run the 3.8 in the fiero.. instead of say a mega squirt or a holley stand alone efi.. making that swap a journey, get the mounts, the other hard parts, then hunt down someone to make you a harness if you don't have a clue on how to get the two family's of parts to talk.. and then get someone to burn or load a tune into the ecu.. and hope for the best.. Most have to remember back when some dumped big money into these cars, at that time late 90's early 2000's the 7-10 year old vette where dogs, today a early 2000 vette can be had for half of what many have into their built fiero's and it'll smoke it in every way.. Today is different that back then, today you can get a clean 84-90 vette for a song, dump a ls in it and have a rocket ship for 10k if not less.. What is holding the ls market from this car is the kit is very costly.. chances are the vendor would make more back in their r&d dropping the cost and moving more volume. a 2500.oo + kit to bolt a 400-700.oo take out ls v8 is a tall order for many people.. Much of the car hobby in the 90-2000's was paid for with home refi's, today people don't have the money to throw at things like they used to..
I'm using a 91 Firebird V8 throttle body on my performance car and I'm having an issue where it only opens up 75%. I removed some slack but over did it and now it stays open a little causing high idle. Also the "spring" on the TB doesn't seem to wanna close the TB sometimes even before I modded it. Might bite the bullet and buy a new TB just to get the tension to close it without it getting stuck open sometimes... /sigh
Sure, I'm technically getting more air in there because the TB is so much bigger than stock but, the TPS sensor also only read to 75% which makes tuning an issue ... I haven't checked it since doing the mod to remove slack. Need it to idle right before I mess with it too much.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 06-22-2015).]
I would say that an MSD Ignition/wire coil, headers/ported manifolds, and a ported upper manifold would give the Fiero 2.8L 15 more horsepower at a reasonable price. If you did this on a 3.4L maybe you would have 175 HP but also more torque. IMO that's appears to be enough for most Fiero owners. As pointed out earlier by Slammed and myself , stock 2.8L and 3.4L engine swaps appear to be in about 90% of the Fieros out there. Not everyone wants Bonzai performance, an expensive swap, a fire jacket and a crash helmet. A few owners that I've spoken to believe that the Fiero GT has sufficient power to make them happy and even some 2M4 owners like their cars as is.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
The thing to do is swap, at least around here. Headers? FI/ECM upgrades? Longevity aside. I imagine there are a ton of young kids out there looking to beat the crap out of their old Fiero, that can't handle a swap or don't have the know how to perform one. First thing most people look for are kits. Something you can build with instructions and be done. No hunting for parts and endless research
Header for example...not for $600 a set. Budget is key I would say. Like you said "a ton of young kids".
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: As pointed out earlier by Slammed and myself , stock 2.8L and 3.4L engine swaps appear to be in about 90% of the Fieros out there. Not everyone wants Bonzai performance, an expensive swap, a fire jacket and a crash helmet. A few owners that I've spoken to believe that the Fiero GT has sufficient power to make them happy and even some 2M4 owners like their cars as is.
Not to mention all the 3800 or V8 swaps left unfinished and undriven, disgruntled owners trying to sell half done projects.
Was looking through the Isky catalog today to find part numbers for their LSx components, and noticed that they have a few cams available for the 2.8, along with springs and pushrods. Didn't see if they had rockers as well, but I guess they probably have something that fits.
Was looking through the Isky catalog today to find part numbers for their LSx components, and noticed that they have a few cams available for the 2.8, along with springs and pushrods. Didn't see if they had rockers as well, but I guess they probably have something that fits.
I know that there are roller tipped and full roller 1.6 ratio rockers that fit the stock engine. I have a set of roller tipped rockers that I'm putting in a 3.4 that I'm working on.
[This message has been edited by Big Paul (edited 06-23-2015).]
Header for example...not for $600 a set. Budget is key I would say. Like you said "a ton of young kids".
Swap headers have always been costly.. Most of the headers I've bought for my cars have been high 400.oo or 500.oo but I buy coated headers.. If those 600 dollar headers and y pipe were not coated,, 600 bones is a tad much..
Originally posted by E.Furgal: I could also see a market for a intake that let you bolt the 3800 s/c onto the 60* v's
People have been dreaming about this for years. There is no 60* V6 "supercharger intake" that fits the 3800's M90 S/C. And it's not feasible because the 3800 is a 90* V6 and is wider between the heads (has more room) than the 60* V6
I don't remember anything coming of this...
quote
Posted by TRiAD on 10-25-2001
I'll soon be starting an Eaton Supercharger kit for the 2.8. Looking for 100HP increase for no more than $3K.
Best install I've seen (with a smaller S/C - M60 I think)
Many of us in the "been there, done that" club would say you'd be better off swapping in a 3800 Supercharged engine. A few of us have built some kind of turbo or S/C installation and have also had to contend with tuning the ECM to get it running properly and no matter how good it runs, you're never sure if you have it at 100%. My friends in the "if we knew then, what we know now" club tend to agree - go with a 3800 S/C.
Originally posted by Big Paul: I know that there are roller tipped and full roller 1.6 ratio rockers that fit the stock engine. I have a set of roller tipped rockers that I'm putting in a 3.4 that I'm working on.
I know Comp have some, but I was talking specifically about Isky. Most people end up with what Comp has, because they see the Comp name everywhere and it's what comes up at Jegs/Summit/TFS. In my experience, Isky makes a better product.
Probably the least expensive way to get more zip from the 2.8L is with a turbocharger. My very first "go fast" Fiero project was bolting on a Garrett T-3 turbo that came from a 1980's 2.2L Mustang. I salvaged the turbo, installed new bearings , bought a turbo exhaust flange, used brake tubing for the oil feed line and had a custom crossover pipe fabricated. I never did the 1/4 mile with this setup as the engine had 60K miles on it, and had stock cast pistons. It ran 7 psi of boost. On the G-Tec the 0-60 was about 6.8 seconds. The tune was done on Tunercat with an added 2 BAR MAP table. I figured that engine made 190 HP at which point the injectors were running over 90% . With a junkyard turbo, a home rebuild and some fabricated parts the setup cost about $600 back in the mid 90's.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
