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WHO won this!!!!!!!!! by FIERO JOHN-WI
Started on: 02-18-2015 01:36 PM
Replies: 22 (1050 views)
Last post by: hyperv6 on 02-23-2015 06:45 PM
FIERO JOHN-WI
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Report this Post02-18-2015 01:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FIERO JOHN-WIClick Here to Email FIERO JOHN-WISend a Private Message to FIERO JOHN-WIEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just like the title said.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PON...rt=nc&_trksid=p20476 75.l2557
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GTGeff
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Report this Post02-18-2015 02:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GTGeffSend a Private Message to GTGeffEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Not me.
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California Kid
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Report this Post02-18-2015 02:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
To me the PAD Documents (Product Assembly Documents) are just a sample, real book would be much bigger - thicker.
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batousai666
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Report this Post02-18-2015 03:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for batousai666Send a Private Message to batousai666Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by California Kid:

To me the PAD Documents (Product Assembly Documents) are just a sample, real book would be much bigger - thicker.


and some of them pages look toooo "white" and seem to me like computer printer copies.
but I always think things are fishy nowadays honesty it out the coop anymore, arrrrgh

[This message has been edited by batousai666 (edited 02-18-2015).]

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Csjag
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Report this Post02-18-2015 04:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Interesting, I wonder how a salvage yard came across something like that. I guess maybe they found it in a car.
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JohnWPB
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Report this Post02-18-2015 10:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Waiting for Fred to pop in here and tell us he bought it
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2.5
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Report this Post02-19-2015 08:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:

Waiting for Fred to pop in here and tell us he bought it


Not a bad bet.
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FIERO JOHN-WI
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Report this Post02-20-2015 01:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FIERO JOHN-WIClick Here to Email FIERO JOHN-WISend a Private Message to FIERO JOHN-WIEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here was the reply from the seller.

Hello, sorry no we do not have anything else Fiero and all of this was found in garage sale.

Jim at emc
Thank you,
EMC Cycle and Salvage
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Csjag
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Report this Post02-20-2015 01:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Oh well, you tried. Thanks for posting the ebay link.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post02-21-2015 07:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a variation of one of these from 1983 for the 1984. Mine I think is a little thicker.

I would have to dig it out as it has been years since I looked at it.

The one I have was an original but I know that the place I got it from still offered copies after I got mine. I know mine was an original as I knew someone who worked there back when I got it. It was a company that specialized in Aircraft documents that bought out an Automotive document company and that is how they came to have it.

What you have looks legit with the notes and the binder but it may be only a partial one or just incomplete. Like stated they are normally larger.

To be honest I think some of mine may not all be there too.

I know little on these but I never have heard the full story.


I have seen other models like this and some are complete and some are not so it is possible they may not always be the entire plan. They may have only given what was assigned to some folks. Mine also had similar tabs.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 02-21-2015).]

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hyperv6
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Report this Post02-22-2015 01:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well I looked up my book and found it.

I actually forgot much about it.

It is a GM copy that mostly was done in 1981 for the then 1983 P car. It describes and shows the assembly of the car but with some things that did not make it to 1984. Things like the 2nd Gen TA steering wheel and the two speakers in the place of the console box.

I even got the original dividers but no binder.

I am going to have to go through this again and check out the many changes. Even the tire tool was clipped to the firewall at this point in 1981.

Note mine is 10 sections and about 500 pages may be 600? It has some areas of the car not included but at this point there was still a lot of pending work. I think this was just their book trying to figure out how to put the cat together.

These are very hard to find and mine until now was the only other one I had seen till you got this one. Good Find!

Oh mine is called a product description manual.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 02-22-2015).]

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hyperv6
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Report this Post02-22-2015 02:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just found the engine install section and it shows the 2.5 but also a SOHC 1.8.
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Csjag
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Report this Post02-22-2015 02:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

I just found the engine install section and it shows the 2.5 but also a SOHC 1.8.


What other cars was the 1.8 used in? Would you be interested in selling zeroxed copies of your book?
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California Kid
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Report this Post02-22-2015 02:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I believe the PDM's were created by the Manufacturing Plant, to better understand the assembly sequence of the Product. In other words, their Work Book to address how it would be assembled at their Plant, and fit into their line station sequence. They would use this information to address any issues with Engineering that could possibly result in Engineering Changes to suit Manufacturing Assembly.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post02-22-2015 05:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Csjag:


What other cars was the 1.8 used in? Would you be interested in selling zeroxed copies of your book?


I might someday and offer them on E bay. Note it is 500 plus pages.

The 1.8 was a Sunfire engine and GM would not let Pontiac have it. The original Indy Pace car had the Turbo version and is in the Indy Museum storage and was unknown till found by two members here.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post02-22-2015 05:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by California Kid:

I believe the PDM's were created by the Manufacturing Plant, to better understand the assembly sequence of the Product. In other words, their Work Book to address how it would be assembled at their Plant, and fit into their line station sequence. They would use this information to address any issues with Engineering that could possibly result in Engineering Changes to suit Manufacturing Assembly.


You are correct on the one that was shown here on E bay. Many of these have been reproduced for cars like older Corvettes, Tri 5 Chevys and the Camaro for help in proper restoration assembly. Some people call them assembly manuals too. They did do them for every year and are rare to find today.

The one I have is done in a similar fashion but it is from what looks like 1981 based on the dates for the 1983 Fiero.

I am assuming that this was a assembly book for a car in development hence the many cancelation notices and many parts that did not make production. They called it a Product Description guide on the title page. It is mostly how to assemble many of the mechanical bits. Things are missing like in the interior it covers the dash and console but not much else. Body covers the bumpers but not the panels.

It appears to cover many of the details of the more complex parts but not the more simple parts like small trim items in some areas etc. Now it does show hose routing and jack placement suspension and transmission assembly for the case and axles.

It has a lot of changes and updates so I expect this was one of many books that were used and modified as running changes were made. Mine has notes on many of the pages at the bottom similar to my engineering drawing of the 1990 Emblems GM gave me. I think this was made by GM engineering to better plan the assembly of the car once it reached production.

If I get a chance to hook up with any of the engineers at GM I will take this with me and see what light they could shed on this. I know one guy at the tech center that does a lot of the work that fixes engineering issues of car being put into production. He may be able to better define what mine is.

I know there are other copies out there as the place I bought it from I believe made copies but they did not get the dividers and title page in color as I did. I am not sure of the value of the document to collectors but the historic value of some of the changes made to the car are interesting.

Mine is a copy but it is a GM copy and came with the color dividers and Title page that the other copies did not come with. I also knew someone who worked there and she did give me the original. I got it with some press kits and other GM documents they had.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 02-22-2015).]

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Csjag
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Report this Post02-22-2015 05:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:


I might someday and offer them on E bay. Note it is 500 plus pages.

The 1.8 was a Sunfire engine and GM would not let Pontiac have it. The original Indy Pace car had the Turbo version and is in the Indy Museum storage and was unknown till found by two members here.


Sounds really interesting. I thought the Indy Pace car had the SD4 engine?
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hyperv6
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Report this Post02-22-2015 07:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Csjag:


Sounds really interesting. I thought the Indy Pace car had the SD4 engine?


The three that were track used were SD4 but the original prototype the 4th car was a SOHC Turbo like from the Sunbird. Ron and Fred documented the car where they found it at the speedway. It is the one with white Centerline wheels and says Pontiac on the rear wing. The engine would not hold up and was rebuilt and the car was sent back to the track to preserve it. Fred or Ron could give more details.
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Csjag
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Report this Post02-22-2015 08:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Oh okay, I guess that came up before my time on the forum. I did find a you tube of the original 1984 race broadcast and it was pretty interesting to watch. Several segments showed the Fiero pace cars.
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Report this Post02-22-2015 09:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tsharkSend a Private Message to tsharkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
New detail for me, this SOHC 1.8 turbo, but I do seem to recall some low-mileage rebuild. That explains it a bit.

[This message has been edited by tshark (edited 02-23-2015).]

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jscott1
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Report this Post02-23-2015 02:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't know that I would want to buy all 500 pages but I would be interested to see the parts that are different from the final car. It would give some insight into the evolution of the design. Especially the front compartment that went from a clean carpeted area in the prototype to a cluttered bunch of parts all thrown together. As if a co-op was assigned to the front compartment design.

Prototype



production


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California Kid
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Report this Post02-23-2015 05:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just because it's labeled a Prototype does not mean it was a "running" Prototype. Pretty clear from photos you posted the Prototype didn't have AC, or Brake Booster unit.

Nearly all "cool" things get ditched as a vehicle approaches Production Design, and the reason for that is Cost Cutting. This happens as they study Competitors Vehicles and determine Market Price, and still try to make a profit on the car.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 02-23-2015).]

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hyperv6
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Report this Post02-23-2015 06:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes the book shows a truck similar to what we have now with some detail changes like the tire tool and routing of some line. Nothing crazy.

The photo you posted is just a mock up that they did and was not a running car like Kid pointed out. Reality comes in once you map out the car and you have to make all the other parts work and the dream stuff goes away.

The greatest changes were the speakers between the seats. The steering wheel was a second Gen TA style, the 1.8 engine and other smaller details. It is an interesting thing to look at but not anything ground breaking. How exited can you get over cable operated under dash vents that never made production?

By 1981 the car was about 85% what we ended up with and the book only covers some of the details they changed and many of them we may not even notice as they are assembly parts that unless you the know the minute details it would be unnoticed.

If anything it does help with assembly of some parts as it has good detail on where and how things go together and references to the tools used in some areas.

The photo you have of the uncluttered trunk I think with out looking it up was a interior design buck that they used to test different ideas of interior designs to see how they fit and what issues they may have had. The trunk here may have been considered as an option but as engineering got involved and the need for all the other systems they had to make it a mechanical space and not storage.

Things like this are why it takes 5-8 years to build a car and platform from scratch. Things are faster today than ever with computer aided design but still it take a lot of time and amendments till the final drafts are done.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 02-23-2015).]

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