I've seen several Electric Power steering kits I think might work on a Fiero, including a kit from WCF. But I can't find any pictures of any electric power steering kit installed in a Fiero. I can't envision how the motor assembly attaches to the steering column between the dash and the floorboard - can't picture in my mind how there would be enough room for your feet to operated brakes, clutch, and accelerator with the motor in that location. Anyone have any pix of one of these installs they could post.
The WCF kit attaches at the bottom of the stock steering column and uses a shorter shaft between the column and the exterior of the cabin, due to the slight extension of the column.
This is the Electric Power Steering unit that West Coast Fiero offers for the Fiero. The power steering unit has a feature of being able to adjust the amount of assist the unit will provide The unit works very well. You can adjust the assist from no assist to one finger turning with the car at a dead stop.
I already have an 03 Grand Am column mounted in my car, it probably wouldn't be too tough to replace it with a Malibu or G6 EPS column. There are a couple simple controllers on the market that use a knob to adjust the amount of assist. One is for the Torrent/Equinox and the other is for the Corsa B and C. Not Sure what the Corsa is but I assume its from Europe since the controller is on the UK Ebay site. Are there any electronics wizards on here who could design a simple knob style controller to run the G6 / malubu EPS?
Originally posted by seajai: I already have an 03 Grand Am column mounted in my car, it probably wouldn't be too tough to replace it with a Malibu or G6 EPS column. There are a couple simple controllers on the market that use a knob to adjust the amount of assist. One is for the Torrent/Equinox and the other is for the Corsa B and C. Not Sure what the Corsa is but I assume its from Europe since the controller is on the UK Ebay site. Are there any electronics wizards on here who could design a simple knob style controller to run the G6 / malubu EPS?
The Corsa is a model of Opel/Vauxhal in the EU.
As for a knob to adjust the assist amount, I've never felt like it would be necessary when driving any modern car with electronic power steering. Not in a G6, Torrent, Cruze, Sonic, or anything else I've driven that might have had it and I didn't realize. They've all worked pretty flawlessly for me.
As for a knob to adjust the assist amount, I've never felt like it would be necessary when driving any modern car with electronic power steering. Not in a G6, Torrent, Cruze, Sonic, or anything else I've driven that might have had it and I didn't realize. They've all worked pretty flawlessly for me.
The knob is to just set the amount of assist, it's part of the stand alone controller to get the system to work in a non-OEM install. If I put the EPS column in my car I will need some sort of stand-alone controller to make it work. Maybe it's just as simple as a VSS signal generator to fool the controller into working. And the potentiometer just varies that signal to mimic different speeds.
Originally posted by seajai: The knob is to just set the amount of assist, it's part of the stand alone controller to get the system to work in a non-OEM install. If I put the EPS column in my car I will need some sort of stand-alone controller to make it work. Maybe it's just as simple as a VSS signal generator to fool the controller into working. And the potentiometer just varies that signal to mimic different speeds.
The S2000 system that I'm going to use has a VSS input, and a steering angle sensor, and it calculates how much assist (if any) to provide, so it doesn't assist at all at higher speeds unless you're trying to turn very quickly such as on a road course. The S2000 rack also has a variable ratio.
Having a knob to adjust whether or not you're travelling on the freeway seems like a bad idea to me, if you end up needing the assist in an emergency situation. I'd prefer to have it just work.
Would this jeopardizes the feel of the road? I recall in 88' the power steering that was suppose to be in the fiero was going to be speed adjusted. I can only imagine that adding power steering would decrease the amount of direct steering the fiero has.
The knob is to just set the amount of assist, it's part of the stand alone controller to get the system to work in a non-OEM install. If I put the EPS column in my car I will need some sort of stand-alone controller to make it work. Maybe it's just as simple as a VSS signal generator to fool the controller into working. And the potentiometer just varies that signal to mimic different speeds.
If that's true you could have it function the way it was engineered to do and it would turn off like it's supposed to. I don't think it's going to last as long running the entire time the ignition has power. I love the idea of running one of these but not with those aftermarket controllers. This along with a Steering Quickener would make for a quicker easier to install system at a low price compared to swapping in a new hydrologic rack and pump.
Not sure I could tap into the VSS signal on the Chrysler transmission so I would probably need something stand-alone.
Why not? It's sending a signal to the PCM and speedo right? Can you not add an in-line buffer to send the appropriate signal to the Chrysler equipment, and a different/appropriate signal for the EPS controller? This is how most all the modern GM engine swaps run the Fiero speedo, so that it, and the ECM for the engine, get the correct signals.
Why not? It's sending a signal to the PCM and speedo right? Can you not add an in-line buffer to send the appropriate signal to the Chrysler equipment, and a different/appropriate signal for the EPS controller? This is how most all the modern GM engine swaps run the Fiero speedo, so that it, and the ECM for the engine, get the correct signals.
Chrysler is goofy. Everything is run on a 1 wire data bus. There are actually 2 speed sensors (input shaft and output shaft) that send a signal to the PCM, which then converts it and sends it to the cluster on the data line to operate the speedo. All cluster functions and gauges run off of only 1 wire. There is no way to tap into the data line, hell there isn't even a useable RPM signal from the engine to run my remote start. All modules are connected on the data bus. I suppose I could tap into the output shaft sensor but I don't know if that will mess up the PCM and I don't know what type of signal it generates. There isn't any info in the Chrysler FSM. Also, how would you know what type of signal the EPS controller is looking for?
The motor assembly is at the fuse panel a long way from the clutch. the bottom panel of the steering column covers the motor. Flipping the motor is not an option as their just not enough room under the dash.
Chrysler is goofy. Everything is run on a 1 wire data bus. There are actually 2 speed sensors (input shaft and output shaft) that send a signal to the PCM, which then converts it and sends it to the cluster on the data line to operate the speedo. All cluster functions and gauges run off of only 1 wire. There is no way to tap into the data line, hell there isn't even a useable RPM signal from the engine to run my remote start. All modules are connected on the data bus. I suppose I could tap into the output shaft sensor but I don't know if that will mess up the PCM and I don't know what type of signal it generates. There isn't any info in the Chrysler FSM. Also, how would you know what type of signal the EPS controller is looking for?
GPS speedometer sender and your problems are solved, jegs has one for $105 shipped but there may be cheaper diy setup if you look hard enough.
[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 02-12-2015).]
Originally posted by jmbishop: GPS speedometer sender and your problems are solved, jegs has one for $105 shipped but there may be cheaper diy setup if you look hard enough.
I wouldn't rely on a GPS speedometer for anything other than a comparative value. They're also generally self-contained systems and do not provide a VSS signal. GPS requires a radio connection to at least three separate satellites to be able to give position data. There are a lot of things which can interfere with that connectivity. Not something I'd want hooked up to the power steering controller on my car.
Originally posted by Fiero Vampire: Hey Fast Red do you know what that steering pump is off of? Does it have any markings?
There is no pump. It's a fully electric motor which mounts in line with the steering column shaft. AFAIK it is something that WCF has made for the Fiero, or it is a generic motor kit which works for GM vehicles with the Saginaw column the Fiero has, and WCF includes a lower shaft adapter specific to the FIero dimensions. It's not a part you pull off a car in the yard.
Originally posted by seajai: Chrysler is goofy. Everything is run on a 1 wire data bus. There are actually 2 speed sensors (input shaft and output shaft) that send a signal to the PCM, which then converts it and sends it to the cluster on the data line to operate the speedo. All cluster functions and gauges run off of only 1 wire. There is no way to tap into the data line, hell there isn't even a useable RPM signal from the engine to run my remote start. All modules are connected on the data bus. I suppose I could tap into the output shaft sensor but I don't know if that will mess up the PCM and I don't know what type of signal it generates. There isn't any info in the Chrysler FSM. Also, how would you know what type of signal the EPS controller is looking for?
The pulse count for the VSS depends on which EPS controller you use. The S2000 uses a different count than the Fiero speedo, which is different from the Chrysler, which is different from the GM EPS units, etc… You'd need technical documentation for the specific unit you're using, to determine what it needs.
I've never tried a Fiero with power steering, so I don't know what I'm missing. I think the technical aspect of modifying the car is intriguing. I can also understand the desire to have lighter steering when stopped, and perhaps bragging rights, but apart from that is it really worth it? A stock Fiero isn't all that hard to park in my opinion, and surely there must be a loss of connectedness to the road with PS as compared to manual steering. Again, I have no experience so I'm trying to find out what the rationale is. I might be tempted if I wasn't afraid I'd hate how it felt.
I wouldn't rely on a GPS speedometer for anything other than a comparative value. They're also generally self-contained systems and do not provide a VSS signal. GPS requires a radio connection to at least three separate satellites to be able to give position data. There are a lot of things which can interfere with that connectivity. Not something I'd want hooked up to the power steering controller on my car.
I'm not talking about a speedometer, I'm talking about a gps receiver that puts out a ppm signal. It's true it could be inaccurate and mess up but it's not a catastrophic failure if it does, the time when it's needed most is slow speeds and in a situation where it's not reading anything like a parking garage it should be giving you full assist, driving between tall buildings and it might jump around but you moving, you should be fine.
I've never tried a Fiero with power steering, so I don't know what I'm missing. I think the technical aspect of modifying the car is intriguing. I can also understand the desire to have lighter steering when stopped, and perhaps bragging rights, but apart from that is it really worth it? A stock Fiero isn't all that hard to park in my opinion, and surely there must be a loss of connectedness to the road with PS as compared to manual steering. Again, I have no experience so I'm trying to find out what the rationale is. I might be tempted if I wasn't afraid I'd hate how it felt.
I have the WCF P/S kit running off the p/s pump on the N* and it is great. Its a camaro rack and feels like it belongs. It's super tight and not overly boosted at all. Everyone who has driven my car raves more about the steering than the oomph from the N*. That might change once I get 1st gear operational though...
I've never tried a Fiero with power steering, so I don't know what I'm missing. I think the technical aspect of modifying the car is intriguing. I can also understand the desire to have lighter steering when stopped, and perhaps bragging rights, but apart from that is it really worth it? A stock Fiero isn't all that hard to park in my opinion, and surely there must be a loss of connectedness to the road with PS as compared to manual steering. Again, I have no experience so I'm trying to find out what the rationale is. I might be tempted if I wasn't afraid I'd hate how it felt.
I don't think I'd do it unless I was going to add a steering quickener that would increase steering effort w/o the ps. I'd be afraid of loss of that connected feeling to the road as well, I like that feeling over all the ps steering cars I have and I'd like to hear feedback on this so I'm hoping we get more people trying this. I may do it and sell it if I don't like it since I have the extra parts to put it back to original.
Usally P/S is for kit cars with really wide front tires, I personally don't think it is really needed on a Fiero. If your too old to turn the car without PS then your prob too old to be driving a sports car in the first place.
Yea I know it's an electric motor, my fault I used the term pump by habit, and I agree it may be from a generic kit, but I have to wonder if so where does the kit comes from. Looking around I've seen other similar kits for other cars most for about the same price WCF has them for but I saw a couple that were about half the cost. Of course are they comparable I don't know, I like jmbishops idea about the steering quicker I had been thinking the same thing but not sure if there would be enough room to mount one in the space available. As far as not needing p/s on a fiero, I don't think you NEED power steering, I just happen to perfer it, my first car I bought after having my first Fiero was a 86 RX-7 with power assist steering, I lived in N California and would drive the curvey twisty roads to the coast a lot, I liked how feather light the steering was compared to my Fiero and I was 20, to me wanting power steering doesn't mean I'm getting old or weak.
[This message has been edited by Fiero Vampire (edited 02-13-2015).]
I've never tried a Fiero with power steering, so I don't know what I'm missing. t is it really worth it? A stock Fiero isn't all that hard to park in my opinion, and surely there must be a loss of connectedness to the road with PS as compared to manual steering. Again, I have no experience so I'm trying to find out what the rationale is. I might be tempted if I wasn't afraid I'd hate how it felt.
I installed the Link power steering kit in my 88 Mera. It is an absolute joy to drive. I went and test drove an low mileage 100% stock 88 GT locally the other day for a guy looking to buy it. I could not believe how hard it was to turn that steering wheel at low speeds. Backing it out of the driveway and turning it was really tough. Wow. Once moving and at driving speed it was not bad but at very low speeds it was really hard to turn the steering wheel. Plus with power steering like mine you get a fast ratio. Mine is about 12.5:1. I can make a right hand turn with like a quarter turn of the steering wheel. As I have said many times it is absolutely one of the best improvements I have done to my 88 Mera and I have done a lot of improvements on my 88 Mera.
After seeing a c7 power rack.. (don't laugh) on all girl garage. I think a unit like that would be the way to go.. as the motor is mounted to the rack forward of the rack itself, in the same vein as the old ram type power units of the 50-60's only this is a rack and a motor..
I'm kinda shocked that no one has tried a hyd boost. set up to get p/s and p/b all in one. After all the threads on the force needed with the fiero brakes..
Power steering is on my list of mods, not because of the effort, but to quicken the ratio. When I run the 3S competition at LSFest, its a drag race to a cone, 180 around the cone (with cone limits along the side), and a race back to the stop box. Braking, downshifting, and turning the steering wheel with one hand more than one full turn of the steering wheel is a challenge. Getting a quicker ratio where it would only take 3/4 or less of a turn with one hand would be ideal.
Also, the quicker steering can help recover from the rear stepping out when running around a road coarse.
Outside of these two scenarios, I find the stock Fiero manual steering just fine (but I also remember how much I loved the 2.0 lock to lock with my C4 vette).
I've never tried a Fiero with power steering, so I don't know what I'm missing. I think the technical aspect of modifying the car is intriguing. I can also understand the desire to have lighter steering when stopped, and perhaps bragging rights, but apart from that is it really worth it? A stock Fiero isn't all that hard to park in my opinion, and surely there must be a loss of connectedness to the road with PS as compared to manual steering. Again, I have no experience so I'm trying to find out what the rationale is. I might be tempted if I wasn't afraid I'd hate how it felt.
The electric systems are only active at low speeds, or under extreme turning conditions. With a rack change you can get a quicker ratio, and with an EPS (or EHPS with the MR2 setup), you only get power steering at low speeds, or under extreme turning conditions at speed. Well, unless you get one of the systems that doesn't automatically adjust, and you have to use a knob to turn it off or on. So, when driving around there is little to no assist from the EPS, which should result in very little difference in road feel.
A stock Fiero isn't hard to park, but it can be slow to park in a crowded lot. Being able to park with only one hand on the wheel and light movement to turn the wheels is nice to have, especially when backing into a spot. Your 355 is also pretty far from stock. With the tires and wider suspension, you might find it harder to turn at low speeds.
Originally posted by E.Furgal: After seeing a c7 power rack.. (don't laugh) on all girl garage. I think a unit like that would be the way to go.. as the motor is mounted to the rack forward of the rack itself
The C7 rack can probably be adapted to the Fiero pretty easily. I prefer the design of the S2000/NSX rack, as the rack actually moves through the center of the motor, and it has a separate control module which is easy to adapt into other vehicles, so I'm going that route. I don't know if the C7 system has an independent module or not.
But GM and everyone else are moving to full EPS systems in all cars, if they haven't all done so already. It reduces drag on the engine and gives an ever so tiny bump in MPG, and all those tiny MPG bumps add up to meet the CAFE requirements. It's also the only currently sensible way to have a maintenance-free power steering system on hybrid or electric cars.
Maybe 15 years ago myself and a couple other guys went to a rack rebuilding place in Chicago and looked at power steering racks. Most racks are rear steer. The rack is mounted behind the steering knuckles and the tie rods connect behind the cross member. Only a small amount are front steer like the Fiero. We did not really find much. Now like 15 years later there may be racks that have potential that did not exist 15+ years ago. One would have to do the same thing again.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
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The S2000 rack is a little wider. I don't recall if the C4 ZR1 or F-body racks are the same or not.
Rickady88GT has demonstrated both conversions on the forum. Both will need spacers between the rack and the tie rods.
There is another thread from a gentleman in England, I believe, that started demonstrating his electric assist conversion. He had the motor up high in the dash. Not sure if he finished and I can't find the thread.
Originally posted by Bloozberry: There would be front bump steer issues if the rack wasn't the correct width.
I presume you mean as a result of the angle of the outer tie rod ends between the rack and the knuckle? My intent is to correct that with custom tie rod ends (which I'll need anyway because I'm sure the S2000 ones are too long and the Fiero ones probably won't bolt to the S2000 ones), and mounting position of the rack itself. If necessary, I'll see about making the rack shorter.
The mustang and focus have EPS now too plus a bunch of others. The only problem is that some systems operate on a data bus so I don't think there would be a way to adapt them.
The bump steer will result from the pivot points of the inner tie rod ends being closer to the wheels due to the wider rack. Shorter inner tie rod ends won't correct the incorrect pivot point.
[This message has been edited by seajai (edited 02-13-2015).]
The mustang and focus have EPS now too plus a bunch of others. The only problem is that some systems operate on a data bus so I don't think there would be a way to adapt them.
The bump steer will result from the pivot points of the inner tie rod ends being closer to the wheels due to the wider rack. Shorter inner tie rod ends won't correct the incorrect pivot point.
All you need to control the motor are steering angle/yaw sensor, and VSS. The control module can take those inputs and look up how much force to apply from a table that contains the data for a plot curve. The output then controls a couple of relays to apply the specified amount of energy for the specified amount of time, to the motor.
As long as you have a motorized rack or column with the steering angle sensor, and a VSS signal, it should be possible to use the S2000 module to control the motor on that column, assuming the signals are not CAN serial data or such.
For the pivot point, adjusting the rack mounting position will also adjust the pivot point. If I can get it mounted in a position where the pivot point is correct, then the extra length of the rack will be fine. If not, I may have pull it apart, put it in a lathe, and shorten it a bit. I don't have a bare stock Fiero rack sitting around to compare (it's still installed in my car so the wheels will stay straight), but IIRC it's only a tiny bit longer.
