I sent this kid a PayPal invoice for a pair of outer dew wipes which he apparently paid for with his mothers credit card. So his mother called her CC company and disputed the charges and they refunded her money even though I proved shipment and receipt of shipment. When I contacted him, he said he'd make good on the money, but after multiple promises by him to send it I'm left with no money and no dew wipes.
Edit: I took out his name for now, a resolution may be forthcoming. If not, it goes back in. stay tuned.
Edit2: Well it's funny how things work out. This all happened within an hour of posting this. I just received a payment from his mother via PP so things are settled. A lesson I learned here is: if you send an invoice, don't ship to an "unverified" address. PayPal doesn't offer seller protection if you do.
Still not sure what the hell happened with all this, I'm just glad it's settled.
[This message has been edited by seajai (edited 10-31-2014).]
The only thing worse than stealing is lying about it. Not that I doubt you seajai, but I'm hearing only one side of the story. Why do people steal, anyway? Is their self-worth that low? I hope this issue will be resolved, and both they and seajai can come on this thread and post that things are resolved. This is a community.
[This message has been edited by tshark (edited 10-31-2014).]
Sons stealing from parents, Boyfriends from Girlfriends grand kids from grand parents, ex husbands from ex wives etc.
If you are going to steal from family is there anyone you would not steal from.
The ones I like are the guys who do a return and it was originally paid for on the ex girlfriends moms credit card and the refund went back there. Boy do you hear the howling then.
So, how many people who posted in this thread about how awful people who steal even the smallest of things are, has ever downloaded a movie, song, or service manual (you know, that one for Fieros that everyone links to), from the Internet without the original authors being paid for it?
Go ahead, don't be shy. Congratulations, you've stolen something too.
So, how many people who posted in this thread about how awful people who steal even the smallest of things are, has ever downloaded a movie, song, or service manual (you know, that one for Fieros that everyone links to), from the Internet without the original authors being paid for it?
Go ahead, don't be shy. Congratulations, you've stolen something too.
Depends on how you interpret stealing. When I buy a book or CD I pay for it. It is now my property to use. As long as I don't use it to reproduce and make money off of it, its my business who I share it with. If a friend asks me to copy a page from the service manual and I send him the copy, that is helping a friend NOT stealing. If I view a video on You Tube it is in the public domain, that 's not stealing. In this case something was ordered from a forum member and not paid for. That's clear theft.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Depends on how you interpret stealing. When I buy a book or CD I pay for it. It is now my property to use. As long as I don't use it to reproduce and make money off of it, its my business who I share it with. If a friend asks me to copy a page from the service manual and I send him the copy, that is helping a friend NOT stealing. If I view a video on You Tube it is in the public domain, that 's not stealing. In this case something was ordered from a forum member and not paid for. That's clear theft.
Videos on YouTube are not in public domain. The PDF of the 86 Fiero Service Manual is not in the public domain. An AVI of the new Lord Of The Rings movie is not public domain.
Simply because something is sitting in a public space, does not mean it is free to take and redistribute.
You copying pages out of a paper service manual and giving them to a friend is in fact stealing. Making a copy of a CD for a friend is stealing. You may own a copy of the book or CD, but you do not own rights to copy and redistribute, regardless of whether money is involved. The only right you have in terms of copying, is for personal use. Making a copy of the CD to preserve the original, or keeping the book on a shelf in your house and copying a page to take out into the garage for reference.
Unless the item being copied and redistributed includes a license clearly expressing that you are granted permission to do so, then you are stealing, if you make copies and give them away or sell them. Monetary exchange is not required for the act to become a violation of Copyright law, and thus an act of theft.
This issue has been resolved and I have been paid. Let the thread die. Someone buying a product from someone else with a credit card that isn't theirs has nothing to do with buying a CD and making a copy of it or downloading something off the internet. This thread doesn't need to morph into a morality argument about what is and what isn't technically "stealing", do that over in O/T. I guess my original point was more of a PSA to let people know to be careful about taking payments from this guy or anyone else for that matter so they don't have to go through a month and a half of the same crap I did just to try and get my money back.
I have contacted Cliff and asked him to delete this thread. I probably should have thought it through a little more before starting it. I apologize for that.
I had a trunk seal customer who bought one of my early Gen I seals and after having it the unopened box in his parts stash for well over a year he said it didn't fit (although unlikely, it was possible). By then the Gen II seals had been produced. I didn't question his character, I just sent a replacement Gen II seal at my expense, and he never returned the original part. Then he claimed the new seal wasn't glued properly. So I sent a Gen III (molded corner) seal only to discover he had actually sold the first two seals to another member rather than sending them back to me. Both of the two original seals, it turns out, were in perfect shape. He actually came out $100+ ahead and I lost $200+ What recourse do I have? Basically none. I could raise a fuss in a thread here and risk getting neg'd by some of the a$$hats on the forum who would defend such behavior or I could take the high road and let the system handle the problem itself. And when I say handle the problem I don't mean get my money back, I mean get rid of the thief member. Not surprisingly, I haven't seen them post in months but I rather doubt they have been "voted off the island". I wonder how many would have the balls to rip someone off if they were in the same town? seajai is one of many, very generous vendors who constantly gives his time, assistance and products to those who need them and all he has ever asked in return is to be treated with a little common courtesy. To defend stealing makes you no better than the thief.
Pax,
Dr. W.
P.S. Well said in your post Dobey
------------------ Is your Fastback GT's trunk seal shot? My Gen IV replacement GT trunk seals with miter double bonded corners are now in production. $95 shipped to the US (contact me for international shipping rates) More info can be found here GT Trunk Seal Project
[This message has been edited by infinitewill (edited 11-01-2014).]
Originally posted by dobey: So, how many people who posted in this thread about how awful people who steal even the smallest of things are, has ever downloaded a movie, song, or service manual (you know, that one for Fieros that everyone links to), from the Internet without the original authors being paid for it?
Go ahead, don't be shy. Congratulations, you've stolen something too.
You mean I didn't have to pay $80 for the service manual, $15 for the sunshade manual, $40 for the owner's manual, $$ for other manuals? Oh, and a spotter's guide for $17.50? I know, can send $4.99 to the author. I should have, but it seemed like too much work. So, I bought it off ebay. Now, I find it's not a legal copy. So buying it doesn't seem to help, either.
I suppose I have stolen, if you look at it that way. At the gas station I regularly use, sometimes my kids need to use the restroom, and it's convenient to stop there rather than find another place. I buy 30 or so gallons of fuel there twice a week, but sometimes have to make a pit stop. I don't buy something I don't need, nor take on fuel on these occasions. So, you could say I'm stealing, as in, something for nothing.
As for music, I thought those samples were legal. Some music and books are in the public domain (although most of them I wouldn't want). I got some ebooks from legitimate places for free. I don't know about movies, but images probably. There is that one of a Fiero I see everywhere that has the intake vent appear on the passenger side. Probably copyright. We repost stuff on PFF all the time. Google image search?
How many of us have met up at a parking lot or restaurant or whatever without some compensation to the owner? I have. If you want that fine of a line, many things become stealing.
Originally posted by tshark: You mean I didn't have to pay $80 for the service manual, $15 for the sunshade manual, $40 for the owner's manual, $$ for other manuals? Oh, and a spotter's guide for $17.50? I know, can send $4.99 to the author. I should have, but it seemed like too much work. So, I bought it off ebay. Now, I find it's not a legal copy. So buying it doesn't seem to help, either.
I suppose I have stolen, if you look at it that way. At the gas station I regularly use, sometimes my kids need to use the restroom, and it's convenient to stop there rather than find another place. I buy 30 or so gallons of fuel there twice a week, but sometimes have to make a pit stop. I don't buy something I don't need, nor take on fuel on these occasions. So, you could say I'm stealing, as in, something for nothing.
As for music, I thought those samples were legal. Some music and books are in the public domain (although most of them I wouldn't want). I got some ebooks from legitimate places for free. I don't know about movies, but images probably. There is that one of a Fiero I see everywhere that has the intake vent appear on the passenger side. Probably copyright. We repost stuff on PFF all the time. Google image search?
How many of us have met up at a parking lot or restaurant or whatever without some compensation to the owner? I have. If you want that fine of a line, many things become stealing.
I'm not talking about taking a crap in a public restroom, clearly designated for public use. Nor meeting in a parking lot. Unless you're actively preventing others from being able to use those facilities at the time, there is nothing particularly wrong with that. Unless of course the restaurant owner calls the police and reports you for loitering. But loitering and theft are not the same thing.
Embedding or linking to an image on another site is also not a violation of copyright. Downloading it and hosting it somewhere else though, likely is. Yes, there are many things which have made it into the public domain over time. But new things aren't.
My point is that almost everyone on this forum has stolen something from someone, even if they didn't realize they were doing it (most people don't know or understand the law, and only equate physical theft of a physical object as stealing). And so we shouldn't be so quick to grab the torch and pitchforks, or make judgements like "is their self-worth that low?" when you've almost certainly stolen something yourself.
Topic Closed
