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decisions decisions by Ducati 916
Started on: 09-23-2014 07:49 PM
Replies: 18 (400 views)
Last post by: dobey on 09-25-2014 11:23 PM
Ducati 916
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Report this Post09-23-2014 07:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ducati 916Click Here to Email Ducati 916Send a Private Message to Ducati 916Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well as winter slowly arrives I'm thinking at this time what to do with my 87 GT. Engine has 196K on it and still runs fairly well. Looking to do an engine swap next year and I've read an awful lot on this forum on all the different swaps. Guess it comes down to either a 3.4, 3800S/C, or Caddy 4.9. I know the 3.4 would pretty much be just a swap less moving the starter, the Caddy would be a torque monster and the 3800S/C well seems to be the most popular. I'm a old gear head from way back on the 70's so getting my hands dirty is not an issue. Time is not critical as this is my toy not my daily driver. I've even tossed the idea of turbo but lots of cash to do so not sure I want to go that direction. The car will be street driven , I like road courses , and may take it to track days. So in everybody's wisdom out there what do you think I should run? More I think about it the more I'm leaning towards the 3800S/C......
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Report this Post09-23-2014 08:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zzzhuhSend a Private Message to zzzhuhEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It really comes down to what your looking to accomplish with the car. If your looking to compete in these road courses the 3800SC is going to be your best bang for the buck. It comes with 240HP and 270LBS of torque, and plenty of things to upgrade to get you to 300+HP. By comparison, the 4.9L comes with 200HP and 275LBS of torque. Thats it, sure you can do some things but after market parts are VERY limited.

Im going for the 3.4, I plan on keeping the car looking stock but looking to achieve 200HP. The car won't do 10s, but it will have plenty of power for me, which mainly includes street racing from stop light to stop light.

Good Luck on the swap/ making an decision.

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mental floss
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Report this Post09-23-2014 08:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mental flossSend a Private Message to mental flossEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Most people don't finish projects. Do what makes the most sense for you and your likelihood to finish.
3800 SC seems to be a great bang for buck.
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Rick 88
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Report this Post09-23-2014 09:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rick 88Send a Private Message to Rick 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
From you screen name it sounds like you appreciate high rpm motors. The SC 3800 is the strongest stock V6 swap that has been done here, but I am installing a 3.4 DOHC in my Fiero. It has a broader RPM range, and can easily rev to 6500 rpm, and sounds fantastic. I don't plan on road racing mine but there are members here that do just that with this motor.
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zzzhuh
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Report this Post09-23-2014 10:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zzzhuhSend a Private Message to zzzhuhEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rick 88:

From you screen name it sounds like you appreciate high rpm motors. The SC 3800 is the strongest stock V6 swap that has been done here, but I am installing a 3.4 DOHC in my Fiero. It has a broader RPM range, and can easily rev to 6500 rpm, and sounds fantastic. I don't plan on road racing mine but there are members here that do just that with this motor.


That engine can rev all the way up to 7 grand. DOHC seems to have issues with head gasket's tho. Im not suggesting that the 3.4DOHC is unreliable, but the Northstar 4.6L DOHC had a lot of issues with blowing the gaskets.... If you want reliability than the 3800SC really is the way to go.

Plus, isn't the 3.4DOHC cost about the same as an 3800SC swap?
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Ducati 916
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Report this Post09-24-2014 06:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ducati 916Click Here to Email Ducati 916Send a Private Message to Ducati 916Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mental floss:

Most people don't finish projects. Do what makes the most sense for you and your likelihood to finish.
3800 SC seems to be a great bang for buck.


Yup I do realize that however not the case with myself. As of now I'm on my 2nd motorcycle build. The first was a 79 iron head Harley, the next one(just about done)is a 90 sporty that I installed the 1200 top end kit on and have turned it into a Cafe' bike. Frame has been modified by me fabricated my own rear set mount, and oil tank etc..so I can and will finish what I start.
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Ducati 916
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Report this Post09-24-2014 06:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ducati 916Click Here to Email Ducati 916Send a Private Message to Ducati 916Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rick 88:

From you screen name it sounds like you appreciate high rpm motors. The SC 3800 is the strongest stock V6 swap that has been done here, but I am installing a 3.4 DOHC in my Fiero. It has a broader RPM range, and can easily rev to 6500 rpm, and sounds fantastic. I don't plan on road racing mine but there are members here that do just that with this motor.


The duc was old school compared to what is out there now, I also did 10yrs worth of knee draggin rideing with a track day club. So taking the Fiero to the track should be a blast. Think I'll roll with the 3800SC checked around and these seem to be plentfull just gonna be tough finding one with low miles most I've seen are fairly high. But I've got time to shop and do this right. I've already got the interior lined up to be redone for a great price. Paint will come after the engine swap. Any suggestions on tire hop? Just with the old engine and new struts she'll hop some. I can omly imagine with the 3800 in her she's gonna hop around more
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mental floss
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Report this Post09-24-2014 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mental flossSend a Private Message to mental flossEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Then a turbo really doesn't require that much fab and expense. But is the advantage really worth the outlay to you ?

 
quote
Originally posted by Ducati 916:


The duc was old school compared to what is out there now, I also did 10yrs worth of knee draggin rideing with a track day club. So taking the Fiero to the track should be a blast. Think I'll roll with the 3800SC checked around and these seem to be plentfull just gonna be tough finding one with low miles most I've seen are fairly high. But I've got time to shop and do this right. I've already got the interior lined up to be redone for a great price. Paint will come after the engine swap. Any suggestions on tire hop? Just with the old engine and new struts she'll hop some. I can omly imagine with the 3800 in her she's gonna hop around more

[This message has been edited by mental floss (edited 09-24-2014).]

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Ducati 916
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Report this Post09-24-2014 07:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ducati 916Click Here to Email Ducati 916Send a Private Message to Ducati 916Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
thought about a turbo for a 3.4 but read more into it and really not worth it for me. I could piece one together but the best would be to purchase a kit ready to go. Don't really want to spend the 3-5 K on it. So back to the 3800SC...I'm thinking that'll do the trick
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Rick 88
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Report this Post09-24-2014 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rick 88Send a Private Message to Rick 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zzzhuh:


That engine can rev all the way up to 7 grand. DOHC seems to have issues with head gasket's tho. Im not suggesting that the 3.4DOHC is unreliable, but the Northstar 4.6L DOHC had a lot of issues with blowing the gaskets.... If you want reliability than the 3800SC really is the way to go.

Plus, isn't the 3.4DOHC cost about the same as an 3800SC swap?


I purchased an NOS crate DOHC engine. There are still some out there if you look. I am not sure if there are any crate 3800 SC's available. My car is a 88 Mera with a 5-speed Getrag. I felt the DOHC engine would best match the character of the car. I think the Olds "Shortstar" V6 used the Northstar head design. Don't know how the 3.4 DOHC head compares to those

If I was going to beat on the motor, I would have gone with the SC 3800. I just like the smoothness of the 60 degree V6 compared to the 90 degree configuration. As far as cost of swaps, It all depends on what you pay for the parts. I think a 5-speed SC 3800 swap would be more expensive than the same swap with the DOHC engine. Most people just used the 4-speed auto on the SC swaps.

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dobey
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Report this Post09-24-2014 09:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rick 88:


I purchased an NOS crate DOHC engine. There are still some out there if you look. I am not sure if there are any crate 3800 SC's available. My car is a 88 Mera with a 5-speed Getrag. I felt the DOHC engine would best match the character of the car. I think the Olds "Shortstar" V6 used the Northstar head design. Don't know how the 3.4 DOHC head compares to those

If I was going to beat on the motor, I would have gone with the SC 3800. I just like the smoothness of the 60 degree V6 compared to the 90 degree configuration. As far as cost of swaps, It all depends on what you pay for the parts. I think a 5-speed SC 3800 swap would be more expensive than the same swap with the DOHC engine. Most people just used the 4-speed auto on the SC swaps.



The Caddy/Olds Shortstar 3.5 is a far better engine with far better heads, than the 3.4 DOHC.

The 3800 can be made plenty smooth with right cam and tune, and can easily rev to 7000 with a few minor mods.
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Report this Post09-24-2014 09:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mental flossSend a Private Message to mental flossEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Oh, I was talking about turbo on the 3800 SC, in place of the supercharger.
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Report this Post09-25-2014 09:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for johnyrottinClick Here to Email johnyrottinSend a Private Message to johnyrottinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
After having the 4.9 I would say that I wouldn't own or do one again. There was very little in aftermarket support or options for the engine. Also, they were a bit quirky as well. If anything went wrong with the heads, an overheat or anything like that, they were basically throw away and replace the motor. It did sound really nice and go like stink stoplight to stoplight. It kind of ran out of juice at about 85mph. If I had to do it over again I would have went 3800SC. Tons of support, high revs, major HP available, and great fuel mileage. Plus, reliable as heck!

[This message has been edited by johnyrottin (edited 09-25-2014).]

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Francis T
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Report this Post09-25-2014 11:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Francis TClick Here to visit Francis T's HomePageClick Here to Email Francis TSend a Private Message to Francis TEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zzzhuh:

It really comes down to what your looking to accomplish with the car. If your looking to compete in these road courses the 3800SC is going to be your best bang for the buck. It comes with 240HP and 270LBS of torque, and plenty of things to upgrade to get you to 300+HP. By comparison, the 4.9L comes with 200HP and 275LBS of torque. Thats it, sure you can do some things but after market parts are VERY limited.

Im going for the 3.4, I plan on keeping the car looking stock but looking to achieve 200HP. The car won't do 10s, but it will have plenty of power for me, which mainly includes street racing from stop light to stop light.

Good Luck on the swap/ making an decision.


The 2.8 and even the 3.4 are very poor choices for a race car; especially with the stock intake and/or headers, they just won't make much power above 4k rpm. Go with the 3.8, or watch you competition rev past you. Good luck.


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[This message has been edited by Francis T (edited 09-25-2014).]

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zzzhuh
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Report this Post09-25-2014 01:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zzzhuhSend a Private Message to zzzhuhEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Francis T:

The 2.8 and even the 3.4 are very poor choices for a race car; especially with the stock intake and/or headers, they just won't make much power above 4k rpm. Go with the 3.8, or watch you competition rev past you. Good luck.



You are correct, but I personally am not going for 'race car' speed. I simply want the car to look clean and original, but then surprise people when I need to.

I plan on porting/polishing the engine, 3.4DOHC heads to achieve higher compression, port the manifolds, and have a 272 (I think) cam. Im hoping to achieve all of this within a $2,000 limit. Hopefully I don't go past that.

[This message has been edited by zzzhuh (edited 09-25-2014).]

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Report this Post09-25-2014 01:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zzzhuh:
You are correct, but I personally am not going for 'race car' speed. I simply want the car to look clean and original, but then surprise people when I need to.

I plan on porting/polishing the engine, 3.4DOHC heads to achieve higher compression, port the manifolds, and have a 272 (I think) cam. Im hoping to achieve all of this within a $2,000 limit. Hopefully I don't go past that.


Eh? You can't run the 3.4 DOHC heads on the 3.4 PR block. A Camaro 3.4, port/polisehd heads, ported manifolds, and a 272 cam should be doable for less than $2K without a full rebuild of the engine, anyway.
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Fierochic88
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Report this Post09-25-2014 03:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fierochic88Click Here to Email Fierochic88Send a Private Message to Fierochic88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You've got a great resource or two right in your backyard - it's a shame we missed you at Neffsville last weekend for the Fiero Dutch Classic. Dave Horst (aka Skitime - look up his build thread) lives in Akron. Dennis LaGrua, a long-time MAFOA member, also has a self-installed 3800SC in his car. He is in NJ but also a good resource, as are many other people in that area of PA. I grew up in Reading but recently relocated to VA.

~ Jennifer

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zzzhuh
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Report this Post09-25-2014 08:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zzzhuhSend a Private Message to zzzhuhEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Eh? You can't run the 3.4 DOHC heads on the 3.4 PR block. A Camaro 3.4, port/polisehd heads, ported manifolds, and a 272 cam should be doable for less than $2K without a full rebuild of the engine, anyway.


Maybe I was misinformed? I could be mistaken for the 3.4SFI, but I swear people have talked about doing that.

On a different note, you think doing those other mods will put me right around 200HP? Any idea what kind of torque I would be getting as well?
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Report this Post09-25-2014 11:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by zzzhuh:
Maybe I was misinformed? I could be mistaken for the 3.4SFI, but I swear people have talked about doing that.

On a different note, you think doing those other mods will put me right around 200HP? Any idea what kind of torque I would be getting as well?


I don't know. The intake manifold might be more important to fix than port/polish the heads. 40HP gain is both a lot, and not that much, depending. The 3.4 Camaro engine and the 3.4 SFI are different engines. You can use the aluminum 3400 heads on the Camaro 3.4, IIRC, but there are some issues with combustion chamber size or such. There's a big thread somewhere on here about it, I think.
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