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3800 mount blueprints by Sonny Burnett 21
Started on: 09-16-2014 01:18 AM
Replies: 32 (811 views)
Last post by: MstangsBware on 09-19-2014 08:40 AM
Sonny Burnett 21
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Report this Post09-16-2014 01:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Sonny Burnett 21Click Here to Email Sonny Burnett 21Send a Private Message to Sonny Burnett 21Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Are there anybody out there that has mount blueprints for a 3800 swap that I can use
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Report this Post09-16-2014 11:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Big PaulClick Here to Email Big PaulSend a Private Message to Big PaulEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I asked this question about a year ago and no one had any at the time. But they showed me you could take a mount from another vehicle and drill a few hole to make it fit. I never tried it because I ended up selling my donor car and getting a 3.4pr for ease of install and cheaper price.

//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/130719.html
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Sonny Burnett 21
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Report this Post09-16-2014 02:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Sonny Burnett 21Click Here to Email Sonny Burnett 21Send a Private Message to Sonny Burnett 21Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yea I'm getting the samething. And I don't want to buy from wcf because of the storyies I've herd. But it looks like I have to. I would change motors but I'm too far into my 3800 swap
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Report this Post09-16-2014 03:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TXGOODClick Here to visit TXGOOD's HomePageSend a Private Message to TXGOODEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You have to realize that the guys who have the blueprints to these brackets have probably paid some money for them and may not feel like parting with them.
I think there is someone currently making the brackets for the swap and as far as WCF they may be a tad slow but they do make some fine brackets.
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kgoodyear
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Report this Post09-16-2014 04:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kgoodyearClick Here to Email kgoodyearSend a Private Message to kgoodyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am running into a similar problem. He has a full set of mounts I feel blue prints could be reverse engineered. This being said, I am kicking around the idea of getting the parts and making vector files....something much more valuable than the blueprints as this file can be fed into a CNC machine and these mounts are perfect for a CNC machine. Of course there are some parts if I recall, that are 90 degree and these would need to be welded. I was wondering though, why someone isn't making them. Well, I expect the tooling costs may exceed the potential profits. I wonder how many more 3800 swaps can/will be done. Is it going to be worth it. Worse case scenario, I can always take the ones off my GT and use them as a starting point. I'll keep you posted on what I find in my research.

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kgoodyear
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Report this Post09-16-2014 05:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kgoodyearClick Here to Email kgoodyearSend a Private Message to kgoodyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good news: I've located a place that will make the parts (cut them out that is) using a CNC machine.
Not so good news: It is going to cost $75 an hour to input the vectors into the machine.

After the vectors are made, I am not sure who owns the files. Now, if we could get enough promised orders it might be worth looking into.

If we could some how spread the cost around why not have the Fiero community actually own the files. Public domain as it were.

No doubt, someone would have to make these vector files available and make them available on the forum. At that point, one only need to take the file to someone with a CNC machine and have them cut them out.

Anyone got other options or ideas?

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Grantman
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Report this Post09-16-2014 05:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GrantmanClick Here to Email GrantmanSend a Private Message to GrantmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
this is just babbling on my part since I'm not a machinist, or welder or fabricator etc. but I'm curious why the brackets can't be put into a 3D printer to produce the measurements that can be inputted into a CAD prorgram and then manipulate the image to produce flat pieces so the CAD drawings then can be inputted into a laser cutter to cut the individual pieces that would then be welded together and holes drilled where they need to be? I suspect there are jigs that need to be made to align the flat pieces to weld. understand there are various ways to build a 3800 swap so it's not one size fits all but I'm just curious why it doesn't work this way.
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Report this Post09-16-2014 05:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sonny, position your drivetrain in the cradle and mock up the mounts with thin cardboard......
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mental floss
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Report this Post09-16-2014 05:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mental flossSend a Private Message to mental flossEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
But there is height to be considered, too.
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kgoodyear
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Report this Post09-16-2014 06:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kgoodyearClick Here to Email kgoodyearSend a Private Message to kgoodyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
One can fabricate their own mountings but some just don't have the equipment or time to make these mounts. If I am not mistaken, some of these parts are 3/8 thick and making them would be a nightmare. Add to that the neoprene inserts I think are on there and the difficulty factor has just gone up a couple of clicks. The mounts are out there for reverse engineering and using these would make it easy to plot into a vector file. The guy I spoke with said to just bring the parts down and he will plot them in. He doesn't have scanning capability. Any way one were to look at this someone is going to have to bite the bullet and have them plotted. Last I remember it is not THAT expensive to have them cut. Right now I am seeing if I can borrow the parts from my contact and see if he will let me use them.
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kgoodyear
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Report this Post09-16-2014 06:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kgoodyearClick Here to Email kgoodyearSend a Private Message to kgoodyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok, I've got access to the mounts. The guy I am borrowing them from wants three sets for his part. Question is, how many pre orders are out there. I would expect upwards of 2k for the plotting and those costs are going to have to be spread out. If I can keep the plotting costs down to under $2K I would front the money that far providing we have enough orders.
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Report this Post09-16-2014 10:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DanyelClick Here to visit Danyel's HomePageSend a Private Message to DanyelEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by kgoodyear:

Ok, I've got access to the mounts. The guy I am borrowing them from wants three sets for his part. Question is, how many pre orders are out there. I would expect upwards of 2k for the plotting and those costs are going to have to be spread out. If I can keep the plotting costs down to under $2K I would front the money that far providing we have enough orders.

Without trying to be a party pooper I will give you my experience with producing a product to sell. I just been down the same path that you are taking. I wanted to make available a product that a PFF member here had produced but stop production. I had to redraw the CADs and find a company that would would lazercut and assemble this product. I invested a little more than 5K plus a little bit more to have stock in hand because when producing a new item tey will ask you to buy a MINIMUM quantity.... many here wanted this product and were waiting to buy so they say .... but when they were available to ship all you could hear is crickets ..... I know asking for a prepayment is NOT something you can do and getting a "I want to buy list" wont cut it either. Before you see a return on your investment you might wait a looooooonnnnngg time. I wish you the best of luck in your endevour .... just something to think about. Ask around here other product sellers .... I honestly think most will agree. This is not to discourage you just giving you a heads up.

As for the CADs if you paid to have them done make sure they agree in writting this is YOUR product and the final CAD files are your property once completed.
greatest regards
Danyel

[This message has been edited by Danyel (edited 09-16-2014).]

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Report this Post09-16-2014 10:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kawanaClick Here to visit kawana's HomePageClick Here to Email kawanaSend a Private Message to kawanaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
edit: nvm

[This message has been edited by kawana (edited 09-16-2014).]

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kgoodyear
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Report this Post09-17-2014 07:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for kgoodyearClick Here to Email kgoodyearSend a Private Message to kgoodyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
thanks for the heads up. Good information. Yet, I need a set of these brackets myself from somewhere......
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olejoedad
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Report this Post09-17-2014 08:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This really isn't as hard as you guys make it out to be....
None of you have any measuring and fabrication skills?

3/8" thick? Really?

[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 09-17-2014).]

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cam-a-lot
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Report this Post09-17-2014 08:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by kgoodyear:

Ok, I've got access to the mounts. The guy I am borrowing them from wants three sets for his part. Question is, how many pre orders are out there. I would expect upwards of 2k for the plotting and those costs are going to have to be spread out. If I can keep the plotting costs down to under $2K I would front the money that far providing we have enough orders.


Not sure what you mean by "plotting". If you want to cut the profiles on a CNC machine (laser, waterjet, mill, etc), all you need is a simple 2D CAD drawing of each flat profile. This is dead simple to do if you already have a mount. All you need is a vernier caliper, maybe a protractor, and that's it. If I had a mount or mounts. I could measure and draw it up for you in 5 minutes for free, as I am sure many others on here can, so I think you are making it more complicated than it needs to be.

Designing and test fitting mounts from scratch takes more skill and time. Duplicating existing mounts is dead simple, which is what others have done who simply copied the original WCF design


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mental floss
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Report this Post09-17-2014 08:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mental flossSend a Private Message to mental flossEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The only reason I would take on this type of project (or support it with my capital) would be because it was somehow better than what is already offered. How many are already offered? WCF and Fierorog? How much is your time worth? Mine is worth $20/hr minimum. Could you replicate the existing level of quality offered for less than the current offwrings?
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Report this Post09-17-2014 08:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mental floss:

The only reason I would take on this type of project (or support it with my capital) would be because it was somehow better than what is already offered. How many are already offered? WCF and Fierorog? How much is your time worth? Mine is worth $20/hr minimum. Could you replicate the existing level of quality offered for less than the current offwrings?


Easily.

I like my design better.

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Report this Post09-17-2014 09:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Even if you found blueprints out there they probably suck. The mount setups you see out there still require extremely complicated dogbone brackets and crap. Build your own with whatever parts you fan manage to gather and it will be much cheaper and easier than trying to build crap from scratch.

Ive built more than one mount package that eliminates the need of a dogbone using crap I found in a 60minute junkyard trip with a 13 15 and 18mm socket set. You will end up cutting and welding a little bit to install this stuff but its not hard.
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mental floss
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Report this Post09-17-2014 10:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mental flossSend a Private Message to mental flossEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:


Easily

I like my design better.


But can a large number of people, or are they willing to? If they were willing to, there wouldn't be premade mounts out, correct?

I can make my own, but wouldn't as long as what is offered is good enough and priced low enough to offset my time. WCF is too high for that model.

[This message has been edited by mental floss (edited 09-17-2014).]

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Sonny Burnett 21
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Report this Post09-17-2014 12:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Sonny Burnett 21Click Here to Email Sonny Burnett 21Send a Private Message to Sonny Burnett 21Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm not starting this to question who or what is better. But to ask who still makes mounts ( besides wcf ) where I can get my mounts from. I'm trying to bolt and be done with it. I have a guy that can cut and weld me a set I jest need the drawing
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Report this Post09-17-2014 01:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kgoodyearClick Here to Email kgoodyearSend a Private Message to kgoodyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have located a CAD program, copy program and 159 instructional videos for under a grand. While I do have a wood working business, I am retired and out of the shop my time isn't worth much. It is certainly less then $75 an hour to have someone else plot it. Included is a copy program that will scan in a 2d drawing and vector it in the software and then all I have to do is clean it up.

Marketing the parts is a whole other can of worms. I have no desire to build these things and fuss with sending them out. I am however considering selling the file and you take it to any CNC machine and they will load it , tweak it, select the tools they need and cut them out. If need be, I can work with a CNC machinist here and have him make and ship these. The problem with selling the file would be that by the end of the day everybody and their mother would have the file and I would not make any of my money back.

I am, though, seriously considering this option as this program could be used to make other parts not available.

No, there are some of us that do not have the capability, equipment or time to fabricate these parts and a trip to the salvage yard is not just a walk in the park. You have to have the experience on what to look for and then modify it.

The mounting brackets are the only parts I am interested in working with right now. One might be able to come up with some options for the dog bones.

As for WCF.......that could be a whole thread on its own.

I'm open for suggestions.....

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post09-17-2014 01:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wasn't trying to say that making mounts yourself is the end all solution for everyone... I was trying to say that the current available mounts are crap compared to what us people that dont make $150/hr can put together out of the junkyard.

It seems stupid to keep perpetuating wcf's horrible design they flubbed together 8 years ago.
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kgoodyear
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Report this Post09-17-2014 01:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kgoodyearClick Here to Email kgoodyearSend a Private Message to kgoodyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Sonny Burnett 21:

I jest need the drawing


Probably not going to happen and someone is going to need the parts to make the drawings. My suggestion is why spend the time putting them into drawings when for the same amount or maybe even less they can be put into a CAD program and they would be precise and be able to replicate them.

The cost of the CAD and making a set would probably be less then buying them from (God forbid) WCF.

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kgoodyear
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Report this Post09-17-2014 01:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kgoodyearClick Here to Email kgoodyearSend a Private Message to kgoodyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

\It seems stupid to keep perpetuating wcf's horrible design they flubbed together 8 years ago.


I rest my case.... What better reason to start with that design and improve it.

So, what should be changed? No one says the design has to be copied but it is a place to start.

I don't know about the parts being crap, I hope they aren't because that is what I am using but it wouldn't break my heart to offer up a better and cheaper solution.

I just don't want to have to mess with shipping these things


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Goody

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[This message has been edited by kgoodyear (edited 09-17-2014).]

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olejoedad
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Report this Post09-17-2014 04:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dogbone? Who needs a dogbone?
Properly designed mounts DO NOT require a dogbone.
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kgoodyear
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Report this Post09-17-2014 05:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kgoodyearClick Here to Email kgoodyearSend a Private Message to kgoodyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Dogbone? Who needs a dogbone?
Properly designed mounts DO NOT require a dogbone.


Now I have to figure out how to properly design or improve upon the design I have so as to not need a dog bone.

I have a demo version of the software and with a little help, I've found it to not be too bad. Add to that, they have lowered the price again (they really want to sell it!!)

I think the best thing would be to plot what I have and make modifications from there. I need some place to start.

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post09-18-2014 03:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

I wasn't trying to say that making mounts yourself is the end all solution for everyone... I was trying to say that the current available mounts are crap compared to what us people that dont make $150/hr can put together out of the junkyard.

It seems stupid to keep perpetuating wcf's horrible design they flubbed together 8 years ago.


The WCF mounts fit well but they may not be optimum. I've used them with success with TWO dog bones preventing excessiove movement and they seem to be holding up fine. I am building my own mounts /brackets now from L channel, scrap steel and brandX mounts. .
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Report this Post09-18-2014 03:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TXOPIEClick Here to visit TXOPIE's HomePageClick Here to Email TXOPIESend a Private Message to TXOPIEEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I figure this is as good as any other thread to bring this option up:

There is a resource that we have out here in the US in certain cities...Called TechShop

http://www.techshop.ws/

They have everything you need, including training!

We need to find a few members that live in these areas that have a TechShop...so we can get these projects done very low cost in limited production runs...just a thought.
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Report this Post09-18-2014 06:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The reason there are so few vendors for 3800 transmission swap mounts is largely caused by 2 things:

1. There is no $$$ to be made from them. The market pricing is about $65 each and at that price point, its hard to justify spending a couple of hours cutting/grinding/welding to make a few $$$.
2. Pick a previous 3800 transmission mount vendor, then search for them and "mounts don't fit". Nearly everyone of them had their name/reputation raked through the coals due to fitment issues, many of which were likely GM mfg tolerances in cradle assembly. Without some benefit of $$$ in #1, why risk #2.


Now there are many things that could be done to help with #1:

First, design the part for efficient manufacturing in mind. To do this you need to have a very good understanding of what equipment the shop has and how your design could add or remove setups within the process, more setups = more shop time = higher mfg costs = less margin. Waterjet or Laser cut parts vs. CNC machining as much as possible. Will the part have a tapped hole (some laser cutting machines can also tap holes at the same time with a single setup), or a welded nut? The mount design and the corresponding mfg process used to create the part are key to an efficient design. Don't forget the assembly process. Having the parts be super cheap to cut out, only to spend 3 hrs on each mount trying to assemble it, isn't going to accomplish the goal.

Second, design the part with the fewest number of parts. A mount with 5 parts will likely cost more than a mount with 4 parts. All parts have to be cut/created (additional cost) and then assembled (additional costs and opportunity for error/misalignment).

Third, keep material thickness minimized and standardized. If your mount has 3 flat parts, use the same thickness for all 3. This allows all 3 to be cut (water jet or laser) at the same time with a single run of the program. 2 thicknesses of material = two parts runs = 2 setups = higher per piece costs.

Fourth, assess the cost/benefit of bends vs. welds. Bends are an additional setup and can induce hole alignment variation and other fitment issues, but at a certain part run quantity , bends become significantly cheaper overall than a weld.

Fifth, non-machined component selection. For mounts there will likely be a bushing of some kind. Choose this part very carefully with a strong focus on costs. If at all possible, re-purpose a mass produced OEM part, as you will get a much better economy of scale, even buying them in small batches. For example, I started using the FB235 lower control arm bushings for my engine/transmission mounts because they were $5.99 each and the poly GM mount that most people were using was $25. If you are looking to have a margin on a $65 part, you can't start the design using a $25 part.

To help lessen the risk associated with #2:
Again its all about the design. If you take the time to measure 20+ cradles, you will better understand the variation GM had with their mfg process on the cradle (remember this is the same company that spent millions on a Mill/Drill machine to improve panel fitment, because they could not control properly control their metal fabrication/assembly process). Once you know this range of variation and the directions that it is in, then you can make sure your mounts will accommodate it. An example of this is for the front transmission mount, the bottom part normally has 2 holes where a bolt will attach to the slotted holes in the cradle. I have yet to see anyone slot the holes in the bracket perpendicular to the slots in the cradle. Doing so would allow the bracket to work within a 3/4" x 3/4" box in any direction and easily accommodate any variation from cradle to cradle.

The other key area is to control the assembly process. If you are going to be welding something that is supposed to connect 2 other parts with some degree of accuracy, you must use a fixture. As part of the fixture design, you must properly locate and hold critical parts. If you are connecting 2 other parts to this fabricated bracket via bolt holes, then your fixture should be designed to properly locate these bolt holes (a lot of the other dimensions or physical attributes are not critical). Good fixture design will also allow you to accomplish all the welding or other assembly processes with as few installs/removes of the fixture.

There is a lot more to this and the suggestions/guidelines can be different if you are looking at making 5 mounts per batch, 25 per batch, or 100+ per batch.

Before anyone asks, no, I will not be making 3800 transmission swap mounts.
For me, its all about the uncertainly and variation. All my swaps have the engine placement level and square within +/- 1/32" because I control the design and fabrication of mounts to a specific cradle on a level cradle fixture. To sell a generic bolt in transmission mount would result in a much higher level of variation when paired with other vendors engine mounts. I don't want someone to look at a car with the engine in there 1/4" off, ask about the mounts, and have someone say they came from me.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-18-2014).]

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Sonny Burnett 21
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Report this Post09-19-2014 01:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Sonny Burnett 21Click Here to Email Sonny Burnett 21Send a Private Message to Sonny Burnett 21Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks you guys for the tips it looks like I have two choices make my own or buy from wcf.
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Rodney
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From: Caledonia, WI USA
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Report this Post09-19-2014 07:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RodneyClick Here to visit Rodney's HomePageClick Here to Email RodneySend a Private Message to RodneyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The only way I could make these brackets is to have a car and engine on hand here and custom make a set of brackets to fit. Then use those prototype brackets to make drawings and welding jigs etc. If had a set of brackets from someone else I could copy them but then you copy something that moves when welded and you pile mistake on mistake etc and they may not fit as well as they should. But I would not know that because I do not have a car and a 3800 on hand to check them.

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Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

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MstangsBware
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Report this Post09-19-2014 08:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareClick Here to Email MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
FieroX had the best design that took care of the issues of the mounts not fitting. His design was the same as WCF/PR but he left the mounting portion of the mounts undrilled. That way the mounts could be setup where needed on the cradle then the holes drilled. I used several sets of the FieroX mounts and by far was the best route. Hopefully Steve gets a shop to start remaking the mounts soon under BrandX. .
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