Started mounting the LS4 to the cradle today. Lots of cutting and grinding on the cradle to start with. Also started cleaning the engine bay - working on wiring and all the "little things" that no one ever tells you about! Guru, Fieroking and others make it look easy - its not easy - it's a lot of work and it makes me admire those that have "been there - done that" a whole lot more. I am very glad that those folks share their work and are always there to offer their help. Pics coming soon.
More later!
Pat'
Stay with it Pat. I've always said that the LS4 was a very difficult swap. When you complete it you will one of a very small elite group that has completed one. Maybe one day someone will offer prefab mounts. WCF sells the low mount alternator bracket that might save you some time measuring and fitting. The way I understand it the LS4 swap has to be a one belt swap that drives all accessories and the fit is tight. .
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Stay with it Pat. I've always said that the LS4 was a very difficult swap. When you complete it you will one of a very small elite group that has completed one. Maybe one day someone will offer prefab mounts. WCF sells the low mount alternator bracket that might save you some time measuring and fitting. The way I understand it the LS4 swap has to be a one belt swap that drives all accessories and the fit is tight. .
Thanks Dennis - I'm not giving up. This swap has been on my bucket list for a long time now.
Today's events! Worked on mounting the motor/trans to the cradle. Getting close. Will need some input from the Experts before I go any further. Here's where I am so far:
Front trans mount Front Motor Mount Driver Side Axle position Passenger Side Axle position Oil pan / cradle clearance From below Front Motor view Trans end view Firewall side view Passenger side alignment Driver Side alignment Random Clearance views
So I spent the last 2 weeks looking for a decent 88 Cradle - and have not had any luck. So, for now, I will mount the LS4 to the 87 Cradle.
After moving the car around to make some more room in the garage, I did make some progress today. Mounted and welded all the mounts and cut out the Oil Filter relief - got about half way done with that and ran out of wire - no desire to run and get another spool so I gave up for the day.
Actually got to tinker with the Roadster today. Spent half the day going through every nook, cranny and box in the garage - could not find my set of chains that I had for lifting the back of the Fiero. Ended up at the hardware store buying chain and hooks (50 bucks worth). Also rebuilt the platform for my scooter jack to hold the cradle. Managed to get the motor / cradle in the car - front bolts in but there is a clearance issue with a valve cover / coil bolt boss and the right deck lid hinge box. My plan is to do the "Fieroguru" hinge build. I just wanted to get the motor in to check clearances and fit. Everything looks pretty good.
Will drop it back out tomorrow and start fabbing the low mount alternator. Once the alternator is mounted, it will be time to pull the heads and cam. Will also cut the trunk - need the space for the exhaust and the ....... oops - almost said too much! While the heads are off getting some work, the trans is going to the rebuild shop. While I'm waiting for all that, I should be able to get the chassis and cage finished up - engine bay cleaned up and the new gas tank installed. Still have to pull the front end apart and rebuild it - lots of work left to do but it's really nice to see that LS4 sitting in it's new home!
Wow - been over a month since my last post. Been busy with end of year work stuff and the Holidays. Have not even been in the garage since before Thanksgiving. Just a few updates - Finally got the TB adapter built so I can mount the LS4 TB to an LS1 or LS6 intake. With any luck it will be in my hands in the next few days. There are not many folks out there that make these adapters - Joe suggested a guy on LS Tech. I contacted him about 3 months back and he was in the middle of moving into a new place and working some long hours. I placed an order and told him to take his time. I got a IM from him before Christmas telling me it was done - I paid the balance and it's on it's way.
I've been holding off on buying an intake until I knew that this adapter was complete - in case I had to go the LS2 route. Spent every night looking on EBay, Craigslist, Racing Junk and LS Tech for an LS6 intake - kept hearing about how easy it was to find a complete LS6 intake for 400.00 - I never found one - everyone that was worth buying (was not broke in some fashion) went for 550.00 and up and I was never in the right place at the right time to grab one. I switched my search to an LS1 - again, seemed like every one was either broke somewhere or was a crazy price. I bid on several on E Bay but they all went for more than I wanted to pay or I was too late and missed the last bid. I gave up for awhile - waiting to see if this adapter was going to show up.
Today, while combing through the local Craigslist, I fond an LS1 complete with TB, sensors, hoses, Fuel Rails and Injectors - fresh off a running Camaro ( getting swapped out for an LSx intake). I jumped on it and got is for 300.00 - not a great buy but not bad either. The guy I bought it from is a pretty knowledgeable LS guy - builds several a year for clients and swaps them into various hot rods. We talked for a few hours about cars and LS motors and Harley's and ... well you guys know how those conversations go! The end story here is I found a reputable guy about 6 blocks from my house that does great head work and cam work and - well everything LS in his garage. Reasonable prices on his labor - willing to share his LS knowledge and buld some nice Harley Davidson clocks......More on the later as I'm working him to build some Fiero Clocks!
Anyway, I'll get some pics up in a few days as I have the next week off - and will dedicate 4 or 5 days to the Fiero project.
More later.
Pat
P.S. - Dratts - I have Joe's Harness, electric shifter, modified mounts, etc. He's been great to work with.
Originally posted by katatak: I've been holding off on buying an intake until I knew that this adapter was complete - in case I had to go the LS2 route. Spent every night looking on EBay, Craigslist, Racing Junk and LS Tech for an LS6 intake - kept hearing about how easy it was to find a complete LS6 intake for 400.00 - I never found one - everyone that was worth buying (was not broke in some fashion) went for 550.00 and up and I was never in the right place at the right time to grab one. I switched my search to an LS1 - again, seemed like every one was either broke somewhere or was a crazy price. I bid on several on E Bay but they all went for more than I wanted to pay or I was too late and missed the last bid. I gave up for awhile - waiting to see if this adapter was going to show up.
The prices and availability are exactly why I decided to go with an LS2 intake. I was able to get an LS2 intake with injectors and rails for $100, while an LS6 with rails and injectors was typically going for around $600 when I was looking. Had to buy the throttle body separate, but I managed to find one for a decent price too.
Spent several hours today "staring" at the motor - thinking about the alternator mount and the water pump / belt routing. Decided today to go with a remote water pump setup. I'm just not liking the stock pump / modifications required. I've done the remote pump on the SBC car I did a few years back. It worked well in El Paso heat. I anticipate no issues with an aftermarket modern radiator and a 50GPM Mizzere pump mounted just ahead of the passenger rear inner fender well.
This is where I mounted it in the last V8 Fiero - will mount in the same place but maybe lower as I have read that it should be as close to the lowest point in the system as possible. I may look at mounting it up front at the Rad?
Man, it seems like the LS4 is perhaps more involved then the Northstar swap! I'm glad you're sticking with it. You'll have one cool ride when you're done. Keep up the good work.
That is where I would put it, to use it as a counterweight to added weight in the back. Not many other things you can move up there. -Paul
Thanks Paul, Mizzere recommends mounting as low as possible and they are really designed for the front engine car. I just wonder how hard it would have to work pulling coolant that distance. I suppose once the system is sealed and under pressure, it really "feeds" itself.. They do make a remote pump that mounts directly to the inlet side of the rad (takes and AN fitting welded to the rad). At least I have a few options.
Originally posted by katatak: I just wonder how hard it would have to work pulling coolant that distance.
The load on the pump will be equal no matter where you place it, in a Fiero. It's going to have to pump coolant throughout the entire system, regardless. FWIW, some of the COPO crate engines come with a Meziere pump instead of the belt driven pump.
The load on the pump will be equal no matter where you place it, in a Fiero. It's going to have to pump coolant throughout the entire system, regardless. FWIW, some of the COPO crate engines come with a Meziere pump instead of the belt driven pump.
Thanks Dobey - I had the 50 GPM pump on my SBC car and it worked really well mounted in the wheel well with a stock 4 banger rad. I did have a few heat issues on those 110 degree El Paso July days. Archie says he used the 35 or 42 GPM pumps on his LS swaps. There may be such a thing as moving the coolant too fast? Maybe it does not allow the coolant enough time to exchange the heat? Any thoughts on that?
Originally posted by katatak: Thanks Dobey - I had the 50 GPM pump on my SBC car and it worked really well mounted in the wheel well with a stock 4 banger rad. I did have a few heat issues on those 110 degree El Paso July days. Archie says he used the 35 or 42 GPM pumps on his LS swaps. There may be such a thing as moving the coolant too fast? Maybe it does not allow the coolant enough time to exchange the heat? Any thoughts on that?
Unless their is air in your system, the 8-15 GPM difference in rating on the pump shouldn't matter really. Until the thermostat opens, you're only increasing pressure anyway. As for your other swap, it may be that the stock 4cyl radiator was just not efficient enough for the heat generated by the V8, and the heat on those particularly hot days simply made the problem more visible. Or perhaps there was some other issue with the shroud or fan. It's hard to say really. I think 50 GPM should be fine, or you can just get the 42 GPM version instead, if it will make you feel more comfortable, as it's something Archie used for the LS3 swaps.
A long awaited part showed up in the mail today so I went out in the garage, fired up the heater and did some tinkering. Mounted the LS4 TB and adapter (long awaited part) to the LS1 intake, removed the valley cover and a valve cover to see what the inside looked like. Looks pretty clean to me. I can't count how many SBC, BBC, SBF, BBF, 2.8, etc. that I have worked on over the last 34 plus years - this is the first LS motor I have worked on. There will be a few more in the future.
Lookin' good Pat! (Now clean the gunk off those valve covers!)
Thanks Blooz! It's all mock up right now. Will be tearing down for head work and a new cam install in the next week or two. I'll get her shined up like a jewel before it goes back in the car.
Starting to get my head above the deep dooey called "work"! Got a little spark to get back on the Roadster Project. Will start the engine tear down this week. Head work, bump stick selection - check the cam bearings (may decide to have new cam bearings installed). If I go that way, the engine will require complete tear down as the local shops will not install cam bearings with the bottom end assembled. As my luck usually goes, it will most likely need a complete refresh. CI'm good with that - just means more dollars but the motor will be fresh. Will also have the trans gone through and add any hard parts needed for durability. While all that is being done, I can get back on the chassis - finish the cage, clean up the firewall, rebuild the front suspension, order parts - big brake upgrade, coil overs, new rad and mounts, trunk work, engine bay clean up, remove gas tank and all the ac / heater lines, fab sheet metal dash, finish the doors, etc..... Lots to do still before Spring / Summer. Just takes time and money.
Originally posted by katatak: Will start the engine tear down this week. Head work, bump stick selection - check the cam bearings (may decide to have new cam bearings installed). If I go that way, the engine will require complete tear down as the local shops will not install cam bearings with the bottom end assembled.
I just pulled the cam bearings out of my LS4 this weekend. It's pretty much impossible to swap the cam bearings in an LSx block without pulling it completely apart. Even then, it's still a tight squeeze to get the bearings and installer in the block in the right position to install them.
I just pulled the cam bearings out of my LS4 this weekend. It's pretty much impossible to swap the cam bearings in an LSx block without pulling it completely apart. Even then, it's still a tight squeeze to get the bearings and installer in the block in the right position to install them.
I would not hesitate for a second to install cam bearings in the old SBC - I have no desire to attempt it in the LS block. I've been reading a lot about it and am hoping that the bearings are OK but I'm planning for the worse. Seems like the majority are worn far enough that a new set is required. I may look for a LS4 Short block? It's only money - right?
Originally posted by katatak: I would not hesitate for a second to install cam bearings in the old SBC - I have no desire to attempt it in the LS block. I've been reading a lot about it and am hoping that the bearings are OK but I'm planning for the worse. Seems like the majority are worn far enough that a new set is required. I may look for a LS4 Short block? It's only money - right?
I wouldn't hesitate to install cam bearings in an LS block either. As long as the crank is out, and the oiling holes are lined up properly, it'll be fine. It's just something one has to do slow and steady, no matter what block you're doing it on.
I have been thinking about the LS1 intake up grade down the road also. Is the low profile flat cover for a carb setup aftermarket?; or is it the samething as a non-DoD valley cover? Maybe its just the way the camera picked it up, but looking at those 2 throttle bodies side by side, it appears the LS4 has the larger butterfly of the 2? The LS1 TB is cable actuated, are you going with MegaSquirt? (Somehow I missed the part about mounting the LS4 TB to the LS1 intake.)
Enjoying your LS4 Build, nice work!
Jim
[This message has been edited by Jims88 (edited 02-24-2015).]
Wow - been a couple months! A bathroom remodel, House wiring project and new windows (plus that dirty word - WORK) has kept me from the Fiero project. But I have been "tinkering" a little lately. About a month ago. I bought all the pieces and parts to fab up a home built Fiero rotisserie. Not quite done yet but I'm getting close.
Bought a couple 1000lb Harbor Freight engine stands and then went to cutting and modding. Also bought 2 5000lb trailer jacks so that I can adjust the height of the chassis and can position it anywhere I need it for further fab and welding work. Picked up the rest of my Roll cage tubing and some structural steel for some interior work for the dash and the tunnel plus some angle iron for the rotisserie.
Pieces and parts.
A little slicing.
A little splicing.
Taking shape.
More to come!
Pat
[This message has been edited by katatak (edited 04-13-2015).]
A little more work accomplished on the Rotisserie. Will have this project done tomorrow evening. Also managed to get back to actually working on the car. Got the AC/Heater box out, spare tire well out and a little mock up of the forward bars to tie the cage into the front "frame" rails. Seems like I got the "Excitement" back. Feels Good!
One finished
One almost finished
Forward tubes - approximate locations. Finished they will run through the firewall from the front hoop / crosbar and tie into the frame rails next to the headlights
More to come!
Pat
[This message has been edited by katatak (edited 04-16-2015).]
Rotisserie complete - just have to fab the bumper mounts and the spreader bar. Once I get the front suspension out of the car, it will be ready for the rotisserie. It will make it so much easier on my old bone to be able to position the car for welding and fab work.
Wow - 3 months and no progress. Got a new spark though. Been ordering some LS parts and working on the engine compartment. Trimming the deck lid hinges, cutting the trunk and cleaning up the bay. rdered some pieces and parts from the Fiero Store, Speedway Motors and Summit. Weather is cooling off - I'm ready to waste some hours in the garage..... Pics to come!
Wow - 3 months and no progress. Got a new spark though. Been ordering some LS parts and working on the engine compartment. Trimming the deck lid hinges, cutting the trunk and cleaning up the bay. rdered some pieces and parts from the Fiero Store, Speedway Motors and Summit. Weather is cooling off - I'm ready to waste some hours in the garage..... Pics to come!
Pat
Just stick with it. I've gone a lot longer than 3 months with no real progress before. But I'm finally making some progress on mine too. Can't wait to see yours, and mine, fired up for the first time.
Are you still planning on using a electric water pump? All the LS4's that I have done used the standard water pump with no problems. My friend put his alternator in the same place you were thinking about. His works just fine. My opinion is there is no reason to replace the standard setup.
Joe Sokol
------------------ 85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II 88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby) www.fieroking.com
Are you still planning on using a electric water pump? All the LS4's that I have done used the standard water pump with no problems. My friend put his alternator in the same place you were thinking about. His works just fine. My opinion is there is no reason to replace the standard setup.
Joe Sokol
Most likely will stay with the stock setup Joe - Still kicking it around but I think stock is the best way to go. My dilemma right now is trying to decide what cam. I have all the DOD delete pieces - springs, lifters, lifter trays and valley cover. There are just too many "Best Cam" threads out there. I'm really looking for a decent replacement for the stock DOD (with a slight bump in performance). Been looking at the LS9 cam? I'm used to the old school SBC cams..... I'll get there.
A ZO6 cam will give you a good bump in performance with the bigger intake. You'll need bigger injectors to make more power without running lean. I move the oil pressure sensor to the cap above the oil filter with no problems. Have done it on 5 builds that I have done.
Joe Sokol
------------------ 85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II 88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby) www.fieroking.com
A ZO6 cam will give you a good bump in performance with the bigger intake. You'll need bigger injectors to make more power without running lean. I move the oil pressure sensor to the cap above the oil filter with no problems. Have done it on 5 builds that I have done. It's shame you could not find a LS6 intake it makes more power than the LS1 intake.
Joe Sokol
------------------ 85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II 88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby) www.fieroking.com
A ZO6 cam will give you a good bump in performance with the bigger intake. You'll need bigger injectors to make more power without running lean. I move the oil pressure sensor to the cap above the oil filter with no problems. Have done it on 5 builds that I have done. It's shame you could not find a LS6 intake it makes more power than the LS1 intake.
Joe Sokol
Still on the lookout for an LS6 Intake - they are just really scarce in my neck of the woods. Car Craft did a nice cam comparison on a LM7 5.3 truck motor.
Some interesting results. I need to read some more - there's the single bolt, 3 bolt, rear cam sensor, front cam sensor........... My LS4 has a front cam sensor and I believe in 06 had a 3 bolt. I'd like to use a GM stock Cam - mainly due to cost and not looking to do any thing radical - most the stock LS cams can be had for 150.00 or less. When looking at the Crane Cams, Comp Cam, Lunati, etc. they are going 300 plus, require other springs, etc etc. I have a brand new set of LS7 Lifters and lifter trays and the LS6 springs so a decent stock LS2, LS3, LS7, LS9 cam would fit. I'm thinking with the Auto trans I want to try and keep the Torque up in the lower end? Everything up from the LM7 Cam looses low end (2500 rpm) torque. I think the LS2 and LS3 loose 18 to 21 tq at 2500 vs the LM7 cam (keeping in mind these numbers are using the Holley EFI but I am thinking the "spread" would be similar with the LS1 or LS6 intake? All this makes my head hurt.......
Falls somewhere between these two Crane Cams with a different LSA? The LS6 - 385 HP cam comes close to the 210/218 Crane - which is the one that peaks my interest most / small drop in torque at 2500 and builds torque and HP through 6000 RPM.
#12560950 LS6,G3; 207/217 525/525 116 use valve spring 12556513 (LS6) #12480110 LS1,G3; 226/236 525/525 110 use valve spring 12556513 (LS6) #12480033 Hotcam; 219/228 525/525 112 use valve spring 12565117 #12565308 LS6 (02-04); 204/218 550/550 117.5 use valve spring 12556513 (LS6)
Also reading that the 01 LS6 cam is better in a 5.3 - has better lower end torque than the 02+ Ls6. The "hotcam" is the Z06?
Decisions, decisions.
The harness I got from you is setup for the OP at the cap. I'll go that route.
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