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Pretty cool artical about factory v6 turbo.... by fireboss
Started on: 05-30-2014 06:25 PM
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Last post by: kymmee on 06-05-2014 07:50 AM
fireboss
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Report this Post05-30-2014 06:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for firebossClick Here to Email firebossSend a Private Message to firebossEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post05-30-2014 07:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Greg ZClick Here to Email Greg ZSend a Private Message to Greg ZEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Cool stuff
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Report this Post05-30-2014 07:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Interesting bit of Pontiac history, thanks for posting it.
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Report this Post05-31-2014 12:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jediperkSend a Private Message to jediperkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Great post! I saw one of these at a car show in Germany about five years ago and could not believe my eyes. What was funny, I think I was one of only about three people at the show who understood how special/rare this car was. Almost no one paid it any attention at all. Just like the article said, "just another trans am"...
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Report this Post05-31-2014 12:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Those cars pop up on eBay every now and then, and they sell at a HUGE premium over just a regular T/A. I've been an F body fan for decades, owned two of them, but even I didn't know how bad ass the Turbo Trans Am was. I would love to own one, but I'd be afraid to drive it.
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Dotrenrew
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Report this Post06-01-2014 02:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DotrenrewClick Here to visit Dotrenrew's HomePageClick Here to Email DotrenrewSend a Private Message to DotrenrewEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Both the TTA and the GNX are two of my dream cars. I should have sold my children when I had the chance.
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Report this Post06-01-2014 02:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dotrenrew:

Both the TTA and the GNX are two of my dream cars. I should have sold my children when I had the chance.


There is a really nice TTA on eBay right now. The Buy it now price is "only" $24,900.

I'm still not sure I understand why this car was so quick. I mean my ram air trans am from the 90s put out over 300 hp (same as this) but is not talked about being as quick as this one. Maybe it was underrated at 300 hp?

If nothing else it validates that the turbo 3800 is the way to go to make lots of power.
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fireboss
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Report this Post06-01-2014 05:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for firebossClick Here to Email firebossSend a Private Message to firebossEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Im thinking weight and more than likely gearing...

In the late 80s gas mpg was not a driving factor as it was later,and this was more of a show and go car than anything else..
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Raydar
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Report this Post06-01-2014 06:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It's an interesting article. Full of misinformation (other than the TTA, a 3.8 was never available in a 3rd gen, that I know of, among others) but interesting nonetheless.
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Report this Post06-01-2014 06:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

It's an interesting article. Full of misinformation (other than the TTA, a 3.8 was never available in a 3rd gen, that I know of, among others) but interesting nonetheless.


Yeah I believe you are correct. The 3rd gen maxed out at the 3.1 (as far as V6 goes) and it wasn't until the 4th gen that the 3.8 became available. But who knows maybe there was a limited edition 3rd gen with the 3.8 or something.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 06-01-2014).]

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Inferno
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Report this Post06-01-2014 09:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for InfernoClick Here to Email InfernoSend a Private Message to InfernoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This is NOT a misinformed article at all. I have been in a 3800 Turbo TA, and they are damn fast. I even ran my 09 G8GT against one and lost badly and I pulled a 13.6 on the 1/4.
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Report this Post06-02-2014 12:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The 93+ F-Bodies were fat weighing in ~3600 so even though the Ram Air got to 305, that was not "at the wheels". If a TTA dyno'd at 301 and was 200-300 pounds lighter, then you can see why they are so fast. Also, 360 ft*lbs of torque is generally more than the LT1 made (335)...
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Report this Post06-02-2014 06:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MulletproofMonkClick Here to visit MulletproofMonk's HomePageSend a Private Message to MulletproofMonkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
------------------
-Brian

My 87 GT Poly Suspension Upgrade (all pics) thread
Removing the roof panel
My HUD install thread
Modified stock air canister and base to 3.5 inch for 3800na

Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?

[This message has been edited by MulletproofMonk (edited 06-02-2014).]

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Report this Post06-02-2014 01:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kymmeeClick Here to Email kymmeeSend a Private Message to kymmeeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The TTA engine differs from the GN as it has different heads, a cross drilled crank, 12 fin/inch intercooler (GNX has 12 fin, GN has 10 fin/inch), stainless steel headers, and a few other things. Also the TTA project was outsourced to PAS, which was Prototype Automotive Services, (not Production Automotive Services as the article states).

I have owned my TTA since 2010, and only drive it to shows and cruise ins. It is crazy fast and fun to drive. It can be difficult to keep the miles from racking up, mine has 53k, and had 51k when I bought it.
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Report this Post06-02-2014 05:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for firebossClick Here to Email firebossSend a Private Message to firebossEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
How is the 0-60 time on yours
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Report this Post06-02-2014 05:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dcarrdSend a Private Message to dcarrdEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
hmmm wonder if it can be recreated(dont think anyone is gonna let go of an original lol) and mated to a getrag or G6?
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Report this Post06-02-2014 06:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for firebossClick Here to Email firebossSend a Private Message to firebossEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
that would be sweet
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Report this Post06-02-2014 09:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kymmeeClick Here to Email kymmeeSend a Private Message to kymmeeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fireboss:

How is the 0-60 time on yours


Never ran it on the track personally, but previous owner said it ran the 1/4 mile in the high 12's. My TTA has a few mods-bigger injectors, bigger turbo, adj fuel pressure regulator and a non stock chip. I drive it pretty laid back, but the few times I have gotten on it, it set me back in the seat.
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Report this Post06-03-2014 04:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by kymmee:

The TTA engine differs from the GN as it has different heads, a cross drilled crank, 12 fin/inch intercooler (GNX has 12 fin, GN has 10 fin/inch), stainless steel headers, and a few other things. Also the TTA project was outsourced to PAS, which was Prototype Automotive Services, (not Production Automotive Services as the article states).

I have owned my TTA since 2010, and only drive it to shows and cruise ins. It is crazy fast and fun to drive. It can be difficult to keep the miles from racking up, mine has 53k, and had 51k when I bought it.


Just shows its sometimes the luck of the draw. We bought 2 of the white turbo TA Pace Cars when they were almost new. They were both total dogs. I hated mine so bad, I only kept it a few months and resold it. My 72 455 SD TA would kill it.

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Report this Post06-03-2014 05:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lateFormulaSend a Private Message to lateFormulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:
Just shows its sometimes the luck of the draw. We bought 2 of the white turbo TA Pace Cars when they were almost new. They were both total dogs. I hated mine so bad, I only kept it a few months and resold it. My 72 455 SD TA would kill it.


Maybe your right foot is defective??? The well documented stats for the 72 SD 455 offered in the Firebird coupled with the transmissions mated to that engine could never outrun a stock 89 TTA in 0-60 or quarter mile.
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Report this Post06-04-2014 02:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for firebossClick Here to Email firebossSend a Private Message to firebossEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dyno Pull



TTA drag



GOTTA LOVE T-TOPS!!!!!
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Report this Post06-04-2014 09:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I never ever believe magazine or factory stats on anything. I want to see first hand. I will give you my 72 was originally a Michigan dealerships drag car so it was sweetened up quite a bit. It was and SD too, not the HO/HD. I could beat my Turbo TA with my Turbo 4 cyl K-car (ES600). I never won a street race with the TTA against anything. The reason I sold it so quick I was I was embarrassed to drive it. My Dodge Magnum did 12.73 at the Mopar Nats, and everyone called me a liar even when I posted the video showing car with the time and speed. It was also a lot faster than what official Dodge stats said..even for an SRT. I think the advertised SRT times published were mid 13s. I do know how to use the gas pedal, I raced Modifieds/ Sprints and stock cars as a hobby off and on for 15 years. My buddies matching TTA was no better. He kept it as his wifes driver and traded it in for a 93 (?) LT Firebird W6.
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Report this Post06-04-2014 09:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for johnyrottinClick Here to Email johnyrottinSend a Private Message to johnyrottinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Retrospective: 1989 Pontiac 20th Anniversary Turbo Trans Am


By James Mackintosh, 25 March 2009

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If you talk to a Detroit-muscle-loving gearhead, you'd think the small-block Chevy V8 is the be-all-end-all of American Performance. So here's a question: what is the fastest-accelerating stock F-body (Camaro/Firebird derivative) ever made? If I told you that it had a 231ci V6 and a four-speed auto, would you call me a liar?

Well, if you would, you'd be wrong. How about a quick number crunch: 4.6 seconds. That's how long a 1989 20th Anniversary Trans Am takes to get to 60 miles an hour. That's faster than an original Z28, a Firebird 455 S/D, ANY SLP FireChicken (sorry!), any LS1 SS or WS6, ANY LT1 ever... that's also faster than a 911 Carrera 4S before direct injection, too. So, what in the world causes a V6 3rd Gen Firebird to dust off it's boots so quickly and lay down the smackdown?

Turbo Trans-Am

In a word: Turbo. A quick history lesson first, though. In response to the gas crunch of the early seventies, Buick released a new kind of motor on the US public in 1978: the 3.8L Turbo V6. It used a simple blow-through carb setup mated to a 3-speed automatic. For the time, it was hot stuff: 175bhp and 275lb-ft of torque with a catalyst running on high-test unleaded meant it was quicker than most every other American car of the time.

Of course, a carb and a turbocharger go together like peanut butter and sushi, and the cars were a mess to drive. 3 gears weren't enough to properly take advantage of the Turbo Buick's narrow blown powerband, and lag was atrocious. It was more of a novelty than an answer... Until 1984.

1982 saw the introduction of the infamous Regal Gran National, which has been described as "the Darth Vader of cars." Named after the NASCAR Gran National series (oh boy!), the '82 GN was available with a limp-wristed 4.1L V6 or the carb'd turbo V6. The Gran National returned in 1984 sporting sequential multi-port fuel injection with electronic controls, and power jumped to 200bhp and 300lb-ft. An '84 Gran National, on the antiquated and overweight G-body Regal chassis, could accelerate to 60mph in about 6 seconds flat - which was absurd for '84.

Another TTA

Through the next 3 years of production, the Gran National did nothing but get faster. An intercooler was added in 1986, bumping power to 235bhp and then 245bhp in 1987. A regular Gran National could now dispatch the 60mph dash in 5.4 seconds, which made it faster than the equivalent Corvette of the time - that's a story for another time, though. What we're arriving at is the apex of the Gran National line before the RWD G-bodies went out of production in 1987, the GNX. The GNX was an ultra-limited-production (547 produced) high-po version of the GN, paying homage to the hotrod GSX packages from the 70's. Mechanical changes were numerous: a new Garrett exhaust-driven hairdryer with a quick-spooling ceramic impeller, an uprated intercooler, a retuned EEPROM (computer), high-flow dual exhaust bumped power from 247 to a claimed 276 and torque up to a meaty 360lb-ft.

There were other changes to the GNX (ladder-bar rear suspension for hard launches, reprogrammed trans with a special torque converter and trans cooler, special wheels, etc.) What this meant was that in 1987, the only faster-accelerating car you could buy in North America was a Ferrari F40. The Countach couldn't keep up, ditto the 911 Turbo or the Testarossa. The GNX was badass on a whole new level.

20th AE Trans Am advert

Now, in 1988, GM discontinued the rear-drive G-body to be replaced by the awful front-drive W body, and that spelled the end of the Buick Turbo V6 program. GM engineers were convinced a FWD transaxle simply couldn't cope with all the torque the turbo V6 made (they were right; the 4L85E can't even put up with the 280lb-ft the later Supercharged 231ci V6's made...) and performance Buicks pretty much died out. So what happened to that badass GNX motor?

Why, it got shipped over to the Pontiac division to create some Excitement! In 1989, the Trans Am was picked to pace the Indianapolis 500, and Pontiac needed a suitable car. Only 1,555 20th AE Trans Ams were made, all pearl white with a tan interior. 3rd Gen F-bodies could already be ordered with a 231ci V6, so the swap wasn't too difficult - they just stuck a mildly modified GNX motor into a lighter, nimbler F-body chassis.

The engine received a few upgrades over the GNX: a new intercooler, tubular exhaust manifolds for faster spooling, tuned aluminum intake manifold, and a few other minor details like Trans-Am specific heads adapted from the FWD 3800 to fit between the strut towers, which had better exhaust flow and combustion chamber design.

1989 Pontiac 20th Anniversary Trans Am Turbo engine

The Turbo V6 was rated at 250bhp@4400rpm and 340lb-ft of torque @ 2800rpm, but let's be honest: that was only to make sure the 5.7L L98-equipped Trans Am GTA not look so bad. Real output was well over 300bhp and closer to 400lb-ft of torque, confirmed at 301rwhp on a GM dyno. The secret to the TTA's (Turbo Trans Am's) success: a Garrett Turbo and a hefty torque converter. Your grandmother could launch one like a pro: just brake-torque it to build boost and lock the torque converter, and then slip off the brake and make sure it's pointed straight. With a curb weight of 3346 lbs, the TTA had a power/weight ratio of 13.4 lbs/bhp, which is quite powerful even by today's standards.

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdVHICHIk1Q

The official factory claim for the TTA was 5.4 seconds to sixty and a top speed of 161; Car & Driver got the aforementioned 4.6 second figure. In 1989, it was flat-out the fastest accelerating production car you could buy in America, and the sleeper factor was EXTREMELY high. It just looked like a white Trans Am - easy pickin's, right?

TTA at dragstrip

The engines were assembled by PAS, Inc (Production Automotive Services) and final assembly was done in the F-body plant in Van Nuys, CA. The only major interior difference was a turbo boost gauge integrated into the tachometer, "20th Anniversary" and "Turbo" badging, and other small geegaws.

The TTA was only around for a year, but it made an impression. Car & Driver was the only newsrag to publish a 0-60 time below 5 seconds, but others hovered between 5.2-5.5 seconds, which is still fast. Quarter mile times ranged from 13.4 (C&D) to 14.1 seconds, depending on the publication. They said at the time "this is a car for muscle-car mavens, pure and simple." Road & Track said "This 20th Anniversary Rocket can't decide whether to pace Indy or enter."

And as soon as it was here, it was gone. Only 1,555 of them were made during the 1989 model year, and all found loving homes with turbostruck owners. Pontiac never again tried the high-tech turbo approach with the F-body, which is a shame. Hopefully they'll give it another shot again- GM's high-feature 24v V6 is perfectly capable of being turbocharged, and GM is going to need a competitor if Ford comes out with an EcoBoost V6-powered Mustang, like they should. I'm just sayin'...
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Report this Post06-04-2014 12:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The GN/GNX/TTA engines were very underrated.
I had an '87 GN back in the day. Only mod I did was a 160° thermostat and Kenne-Bell Hi-Lo Pro chip to raise boost to 19psi. If it was cold, it was brutal. Heat soak was the car's kryptonite. One estimate I read back then was every degree you dropped the intake charge was good for 1HP, so on a 40° day you had 50HP more than a 90° day. Of course, sitting in traffic was the worst thing for it's performance. You had to keep it cool to make big power.

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Report this Post06-04-2014 01:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I drove some Buick GN and Regal turbos. THEY were fast. I made that observation in another thread. I couldnt figure why the TAs we had were such slouches with supposedly the same engine. I guess their improvements didnt always work out as planned. I honestly cant remember what year mine was, but it was definately the Pace Car because I painted it and replaced them all. It also had a bunch of factory pinstripes in the kit for around the wheel wells and the chicken on the hood. If I remember they were red and gray. 250-300 hp was nothing to brag about. I think my '66 Dodge 318 had that.
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Report this Post06-04-2014 02:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kymmeeClick Here to Email kymmeeSend a Private Message to kymmeeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Maybe you are confusing the 89 TTA with the 80 0r 81 turbo TA. They all were white and were pace cars for either the Indy 500 or the Daytona 500. The 80 and 81 cars were Olds 301 engines, V-8's, and were dogs, plus those cars weighed more. I cant imagine an 89 TTA being a dog. It is the only pace car that was not modified for the track other than the strobe lights and mounted camera's.
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Report this Post06-04-2014 04:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for firebossClick Here to Email firebossSend a Private Message to firebossEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Roger could you just had a lemon or one the previous owner dogged
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Report this Post06-04-2014 10:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by kymmee:

...It is the only pace car that was not modified for the track other than the strobe lights and mounted camera's.


It is more accurate to say it was the FIRST pace car that was not modified other than strobe lights and cameras. The current list of Corvettes that have paced Indy have no mechanical mods either. Just lights, cameras and stickers.

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Report this Post06-05-2014 01:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Your probably right that it was the older one, I honestly dont remember what year they were...like I said they were not memorable in any way. If I got a dog/lemon, I would find it odd coincidence that my buddy who bought another just like it at the same time ran also just as bad. All I remember was they were white turbo pace cars with all the lettering, and ours did have the chicken decal that went out over the fenders (I think). I dont think it had the same one that was only on the hood of the older ones. I didnt keep it long enough to remember much of it.
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Report this Post06-05-2014 07:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for kymmeeClick Here to Email kymmeeSend a Private Message to kymmeeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


It is more accurate to say it was the FIRST pace car that was not modified other than strobe lights and cameras. The current list of Corvettes that have paced Indy have no mechanical mods either. Just lights, cameras and stickers.


Yes, you are correct. I'm not up on the newest Pace cars. Let's say it was the first not modified and the only Trans Am ever with a V-6. Those stats shouldnt change.
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