What is the cheapest path to having a daily driver that you could claim to be faster, quicker, better brakes and better handling than 90% of vehicles on the road?
What would those performance goal numbers look like? 0 to 60? 0 to 100 to 0? Skid pad G's? Top speed?
Could you build a Fiero to be such a car and maintain daily driver reliability? If not, what car would you start with? Maybe it would be cheaper to just go buy a used Corvette or something else off the shelf? No matter how much money you put into a car, there will always be one faster. If not now, you will lose that crown eventually so why fight it? Getting in the top 10% is good enough for me!
NotchBack Fiero 3800 S/C Swap 4t65e-HD trans 3.4" Pulley Grand am Brake Upgrade 17" wheels & Decent tires + ________________________ = What I think your asking for
with only a 3800 swap my Fiero is faster in a straight line than 90% of the cars on the road, if I put just a little effort into the suspension it would be alot more competent
as far as $$$ A used 98-02 TransAm around here is $8000-12000 for a good example, C5 Vette's go Up from there.
Click on my build thread I have about $4,000 tied up in my car, but I did all the wrenching myself, and if I did a rotor & pad upgrade, lowering springs, solid cradle bushings, move the front swaybar to the rear, upgrade the front sway bar, do Polly bushings, shocks and a decent set of tires (quality tire not just big & fat) then the car would be amazing. even @ Fiero store prices thats about $3,000 so $8,000-$9,000 for a sweet @$$ Fiero that's where My money is at.
I guess it depends of weather or not your better @ filling out loan papers or turning wrenches
P.S.
quote
What would those performance goal numbers look like? 0 to 60? 0 to 100 to 0? Skid pad G's? Top speed?
all I know about mine is she does 0-105mph in 12.8sec
While I don't think a Fiero will EVER out do a New GT-R I do think a $10k Fiero done well will still be in the GT-R's rear view mirror in nearly any occasion
whats a used GTR cost anyway? $60K-$70K and new ones are about $100K I'd rather have a C6 ZR1 for that kind of cash
Edit: I was thinking about it.. Cost to Performance ratio considered, it's hard to beat the 03-04 Cobras. they can be had in the $10,000-20,000 range run 11's in the 1/4 top out over 170mph, Stop, Turn and have cold A/C, power windows, locks & the Speedometer goes up faster than the Tach LOL
[This message has been edited by 1fast2m4 (edited 11-01-2013).]
What is the cheapest path to having a daily driver that you could claim to be faster, quicker, better brakes and better handling than 90% of vehicles on the road?
I too have a 3800SC with a 5 speed. When I drove her for a week before starting the 2nd phase. And I would have to agree that she is faster in the straight than 90% of the vehicles on the road!
Whats the point? Ok the GTR won that's cool, the fiero dislocated the GoPro and that's hard to do. both of those cars are in the top 10%
there are ALOT fo cars on the road, whats the average 0-60, 0-100, 1/4 time & skid pad G's of all of them? i bet 3800 Fiero's are right there @ the 10% mark and for the money the only real competetion for the Fiero is a early 90's hatchback civic or Notchback Fox Mustang
does Car & Driver or MotorTrend keep track of there test averages? I would be cool to see the world wide average of all the cars that the major magazines tests.
You know I bet for every 11.0 sec lambo gilardo there's a 19 sec Nissan Versa for every 1.04G Zr1 thers a .87g corolla that would be cool to see.
You would still need production numbers for each model/year and then assume a loss rate per year of age to get a SWAG at the average performance numbers to back into the 90% mark. If you just looked at the data for the last 5 years, my guess is the 90% mark will be in the 13-14 second 1/4 mile with all the trucks, crossover SUV's, and midsize sedans being the dominant sellers. Sure there are some 11 second cars right off the show room floor, but they won't move the needle much due to their production numbers being very low compared to the much slower/more common vehicles.
My Fiero is likely above the 90% range as well and I have about $8K in it. Future upgrades to the wheels/tires/rear struts will help push the performance envelope even further.
------------------ 1988 Notchie: LS4/F40, 382 whp @ 6800 rpm, 325 wtq @ 5000 rpm, 2807 curb weight, 29 mpg 70-75 mph, 20 mpg on my daily commute. Modification List: 4" CAI, LS7 MAF, LS2: TB, Intake, Injectors, 224/232 cam, E67 ECM, LS7 Exhaust manifolds, Magnaflow muffler, 12 lbs aluminum flywheel, 10" Spec stage 4+ clutch, 13" rotor conversion, rear lateral link relocation brackets, rod end lateral link upgrade, top of struts relocated 1" inboard, cut FJF front springs, Koni shocks up front, with 275 lbs/in rear coil overs.
Originally posted by fieroguru: My Fiero is likely above the 90% range as well and I have about $8K in it. Future upgrades to the wheels/tires/rear struts will help push the performance envelope even further.
Heck. A stock 88 Fiero Formula is probably close to having better performance than 90% of the cars on the road. Not 90% of cars at a show where enthusiasts with fast cars take them to show off, of course. But people tend to forget just how many incredibly slow and poor handling vehicles, exist and are on the road.
In 2009, in the US, there were over 254 million registered passenger vehicles. Today, it's probably closer to 270 million. Being in the top 10% means being one of 27 million cars on the road. That's a lot of cars. If you gathered full range of performance measurements for them, and graphed them all, You'd see a very small number at the top of the curve, as extremely high performance vehicles, and then a fairly sharp drop down to the range of the other 90% that would end up as a relatively flat line all the way to the end of the spectrum.
Very high performance production cars exist, but they're also quite expensive, quite rare, and there just aren't that many out there. There are less than 10,000 USDM GT-Rs total, from 2008-2014 model years. That's 0.0037% of registered cars in the country.
So if you want to be in the top 10% of fast cars in the US, just buy a moderately fast car, and you'll be there.
DSM I have seen some really stupid unimaginable things from the GST and GSX eclipse, I'm currently looking to trade that citation I got for a nice stock unmolested Gem 97 GST
[This message has been edited by pontiackid86 (edited 11-01-2013).]
I'm still kicking around the idea of selling all my Fiero stuff and picking up a Porsche 997 GT2. I found a 2008 that is in my budget.....but I think I still want to keep one of my Fieros though. Dave
You want the best performance for the money car in the world the new Stingray is your car. Here is why.
The car will lap faster than nearly any car out there and almost as fast as the F12 Ferrari the best road car they have ever done for daily use.
It has a full warranty.
It is fully sorted out and not only has great lap numbers but is sorted to the point an average driver can be race car fast.
It has the best MPG of nearly any performance car
If something breaks you can visit any Chevy dealer and they can repair it
You can get into other cars but they are not as inexpensive or as well sorted and too often their numbers are not as good on the track nor is their at limit behavior.
I know you can do a lot with a Fiero but few people have the ability to sort the car out properly to where it has as good limits as the Stingray. Second it would not be cheap to do it right. If you break it you have to take it home and fix it yourself.
The reality is the Fiero even the 88 while a fun handling car it is not even close to the modern day performance cars we have today. You can tweak it and make it better but even then it can not compare to the cars today that use the Magnetic suspensions of today.
Just read the new Motor Trend where they compare the Stingray to the new Ferrari and 911 and you can see for the money nothing comes close. At $56K there is no car that delivers all these parameters and dynamic to this level. Others will soon match this and sports cars in general are just going to improve.
As for the GTR it is just getting too expensive to fit the best bang for the buck and in that price range there are even better cars.
I can take any old car and make it challenge any new car but to get it as well sorted and tuned right it will cost more. Case in point the 60's Camaro's Mark Steilow builds for the run and gun like contest for Hot Rod Magazines. His Camaro's can out gun the best cars in the world but to do it right and reliable his cars will have 6 figures invested in them. That last little bit about handing refinement at the limit is where cost climbs and why cars like the new Stingray stand out. Even some of the best factory cars never get the at limit right. The Vette did not for years.
Not 90% of cars at a show where enthusiasts with fast cars take them to show off, of course.
Yeah, I took the LS4/F40 car to the LS Fest and its 382 whp was likely in the bottom 25% of the cars there. Same for the 1/4 mile times, but I did fair slightly better on the autocross (but still in the bottom 50%), beating many stock late model cars, but did get smoked by the purpose built auto-x cars. The important thing to me is my times in all events continued to improve as I got more practice, and I learned quite a bit about the car and identified some tweaks to make it better..
For me, its just a learning exercise that challenges my skill sets with the goal of building a well balanced, high performing Fiero that remains docile enough so I can drive to work every day
I have 8000 miles on the swap since finishing it earlier this year, so it looks like it is living up to its daily driver requirement.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-02-2013).]
Keep in mind that sporty cars are a small portion of total vehicle numbers. Taking that into consideration, just about any sporty car should put you at or near the top 10%, by default. So take your pick.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 11-02-2013).]
Mazda Speed 3? A friend of mine bought a 2012. Brand new. Factory warranty. Fully loaded. $24,500. 300whp on pump gas. Light. Handles well. And you've got the functionality of a hatchback.
The best and cheapest car that you can have would be the c7 corvette. Wait till next year and buy a used one with 1000 miles on it would be the best deal.
Originally posted by dobey: Heck. A stock 88 Fiero Formula is probably close to having better performance than 90% of the cars on the road. Not 90% of cars at a show where enthusiasts with fast cars take them to show off, of course. But people tend to forget just how many incredibly slow and poor handling vehicles, exist and are on the road.
In 2009, in the US, there were over 254 million registered passenger vehicles. Today, it's probably closer to 270 million. Being in the top 10% means being one of 27 million cars on the road. That's a lot of cars. If you gathered full range of performance measurements for them, and graphed them all, You'd see a very small number at the top of the curve, as extremely high performance vehicles, and then a fairly sharp drop down to the range of the other 90% that would end up as a relatively flat line all the way to the end of the spectrum.
Very high performance production cars exist, but they're also quite expensive, quite rare, and there just aren't that many out there. There are less than 10,000 USDM GT-Rs total, from 2008-2014 model years. That's 0.0037% of registered cars in the country.
So if you want to be in the top 10% of fast cars in the US, just buy a moderately fast car, and you'll be there.
This. The slowest 90% of the cars on the road probably don't include ANY performance cars, if you are counting 90% of all the cars in use on the roads. Not 90% of the different models. Most vehicles on the road are pickups, minivans, and SUV's. My Formula is faster than 90% of those.
Also, how fast do you want to go? In motorcycling, there is a saying that goes, "It's better to ride a slow bike fast, than a fast bike slow." The concept is that if you're on something like 1000cc superbike, 10% of its performance will take you to go-to-jail speeds. So you have to putt around at just above idle. A Ninja 250, however, can be thrashed around much more before getting to those speeds. Driving a 500hp car would result in a similar situation. My Formula, I admit, won't win may acceleration contests*, but it will already corner at stupid speeds. A super high performance car (or motorcycle) is boring until you get to stupid speeds. I like my Formula because it's entertaining at less than go-to-jail speeds.
* It doesn't have that much power, but the fact that it's a manual makes it FEEL more responsive than an auto-tranny vehicle with twice the power. Our family vehicle is a Lexus RX330, with about double the power of my Formula. But my Formula is still more capable of passing slow traffic.
While I don't think a Fiero will EVER out do a New GT-R I do think a $10k Fiero done well will still be in the GT-R's rear view mirror in nearly any occasion
What if the goal was changed to top ten percent of different models of cars and motorcycles made on an assembly line? This would eliminate hand built and modified machines. It would also eliminate the need to account for large production numbers of economy cars.
So just considering off the shelf performance cars, so we would be talking about new cars and decent used ones less than 2-3 years old?
I just rattle off as many as I can
Hennesy Venom Lamborgini Aventador Skyline GTR Ferrairi 458 Porsche 911 GT3rs C6 Vette (Zr1) SRT Viper Camaro ZL1 C6 Vette (Zo6) Boss 302 Mustang Shelby Mustang (GT500 / KR / SS) Audi R8 (4.2 & 5.2) & Lamborgini Galardo Audi S6 5.2 C7 Corvette ( no Zo6 / Zr1 yet) Aston martin DB9 Cadillac CTS-V Challenger/ Charger SRT8 C63 AMG BMW M3 Audi S4 From here down they might not win a drag race but they knock the Fun -to- $$$ ratio out of the park
Liter Bikes STi EVO Camaro SS 600cc Bikes Mustang 5.0 Nissan 370z Mazda RX-8 VW GTi BMW 135i Scion FR-S / Subaru BR-Z Mazdaspeed 3 Hot Rod Fiero (Duh)
Older cars that the price is getting good on 03-04 Cobra C5 Corvette 98-02 F-body 04+ GTO I'm sure I missed something but no matter which way you cut it that's one hell of a list to be on.
[This message has been edited by 1fast2m4 (edited 11-03-2013).]
For bang-for-the-buck, it would be hard to beat a C5 Vette. You can get one for under $20K these days. It's not faster than 90% of the performance cars built today, but I'll bet it's EASILY faster than 90% of performance cars over the last 20 years.
Hard to tell in that video. Was it the Fiero winning? So you're saying a turbo 3800 Fiero beat a GT/R that has been upgraded with $10K worth of mods? That sounds like it has made it into the accelleration segment of the contest for sure! Also sounds cheaper than a C5 Corvette or a Cobra Mustang.
Originally posted by Boostdreamer: What if the goal was changed to top ten percent of different models of cars and motorcycles made on an assembly line? This would eliminate hand built and modified machines. It would also eliminate the need to account for large production numbers of economy cars.
Jonathan
If you're going to include bikes, then looking at cars is a waste of time. Just go buy a used Hayabusa or something, with a few mods. It'll weigh less than 1/4 as much as the Fiero does, can manoeuvre much better than any car will, and will get much better gas mileage than any car you'd be looking at.
Speed, Comfort, or Price. Pick two. Because you're going to have to compromise with one of them.
If it has to be a Fiero, then find a nice clean 88 GT, throw a turbo 3800 in it, and call it a day.
Hard to tell in that video. Was it the Fiero winning? So you're saying a turbo 3800 Fiero beat a GT/R that has been upgraded with $10K worth of mods? That sounds like it has made it into the accelleration segment of the contest for sure! Also sounds cheaper than a C5 Corvette or a Cobra Mustang.
In the video, the Fiero SPANKED the GTR. It looked more like driver error or lack of commitment on the GTR's part. Especially if the GTR was able to beat the Fiero once. Makes you wonder what it is really capable of.
Since 90% of vehicles are mini vans, trucks, and civics... I'm pretty sure a stock fiero gt is in the 90 percentile already. Add a v8 or turbo, or both if you want to beat the street.
Since 90% of vehicles are mini vans, trucks, and civics... I'm pretty sure a stock fiero gt is in the 90 percentile already.
I'll respectfully disagree with that. My 87 V6 5-speed wasn't faster than my friend's new Dodge Neon back in 2010. I have never forgotten that. Our cars with the 2.8 V6 were rated at 140 horsepower when new if I'm not mistaken. Now add 25 years of service. Also, at 2700 pounds, it was not a featherweight. I think 140 hp is a low figure for modern cars. I think my wife's Honda Pilot is also quicker than my GT. Prolly has a higher top speed and better brakes for sure. And it feels more stable at high speeds than the GT. The GT will take curves and corners better than the Pilot, though. It is kinda like Pac Man. Faster in the corners but will get eaten on a straightaway.
Jonathan
[This message has been edited by Boostdreamer (edited 11-06-2013).]
Originally posted by Boostdreamer: I'll respectfully disagree with that. My 87 V6 5-speed wasn't faster than my friend's new Dodge Neon back in 2010. I have never forgotten that. Our cars with the 2.8 V6 were rated at 140 horsepower when new if I'm not mistaken. Now add 25 years of service. Also, at 2700 pounds, it was not a featherweight. I think 140 hp is a low figure for modern cars.
A 2010 Neon? SRT? Yeah, it might be faster than a Fiero off the line. But that doesn't mean the Fiero isn't already faster than 90% of the cars on the road. 2700 lbs with 170 lb-ft of torque isn't exactly slow. Hell, the Fiero wins by default, just because 90% of the people on the road, don't even know how to drive properly.
Why are you comparing crank HP ratings? Are you asking about faster than 90% of the cars? Or more HP than 90% of the cars? 140 HP also isn't a low figure for modern cars. Chevy Cruze is ~138 HP and about 2900 lbs. Sonic is about the same HP, and a bit lighter. Not sure how much the Spark has, but probably around the same. Honda Fit is right around there as well, as is the Civic and CRZ. Plenty of other small cars are equally as unpowerful. Corvettes and GTRs aren't the 90%.
If you want to compare acceleration, you're going to have to look at a lot more than just HP and weight, though. You need to compare torque curves, gear ratios including final drive and tire size, and weight, at least.
In the video, the Fiero SPANKED the GTR. It looked more like driver error or lack of commitment on the GTR's part. Especially if the GTR was able to beat the Fiero once. Makes you wonder what it is really capable of.
Jonathan
Gtrs are usually mid to high 7 seconds in the 1/8th, my car is low 7s and high 6s. He is probably similar to mine in the 1/8th with his mods ( 10k doesn't get you much for a gtr). He was spinning when his turbo spooled and I wasn't. When he won the 3rd race it was because he turned down the boost in 1st and 2nd.
A lot of newer cars feel faster because of throttle responses. I have a 320hp Nissan Titan, with a lot of balls.. But out of the whole I doubt I'd beat a low mileage well kept 85 gt 4spd. Now if you were talking highway speeds, then no comparison.
