We are told again and again that our prison system is in place to reform people. Yet, they are treated like criminals for the rest of their lives. If they paid for their crimes, and are "reformed", than why are they marked as any different than any other citizen?
Brad
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12:49 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
We are told again and again that our prison system is in place to reform people. Yet, they are treated like criminals for the rest of their lives. If they paid for their crimes, and are "reformed", than why are they marked as any different than any other citizen?
Brad
Prisons are just college for crooks.
Steve
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12:55 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
If it were treason or spying, I understand losing the right to vote. If the crime involved using a gun against a child (a small defenseless one, not a high school football player), I would understand losing the gun ownership rights.
Jonathan
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01:32 PM
DanDamage Member
Posts: 3067 From: Smokey Mountains Registered: Feb 2013
But like you all said, you get stamped for life if you beat someone up you cannot expunge that off your record. But felony drug possession or manufacture/delivery can be expunged? what a nation we live in.
Apparently 'non violent' felons get a second chance with the whole expunging a felony restoring your right to vote and own gun. If you **** that up twice you dont deserve it.
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01:38 PM
Fats Member
Posts: 5577 From: Wheaton, Mo. Registered: Jan 2012
But like you all said, you get stamped for life if you beat someone up you cannot expunge that off your record. But felony drug possession or manufacture/delivery can be expunged? what a nation we live in.
Apparently 'non violent' felons get a second chance with the whole expunging a felony restoring your right to vote and own gun. If you **** that up twice you dont deserve it.
If they are non-violent, why the worry about them owning a gun?
I do not think so, because I don't think property rights should be infringed upon. That goes for prior violent criminals, because they have paid for their crimes already and should come out equal to how they went in.
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02:00 PM
texasfiero Member
Posts: 4674 From: Houston, TX USA Registered: Jun 2003
If they can't live by the law, they shouldn't have access to making/changing law. In Texas, voting rights are restored after the sentence is served, which is as it should be. I have a close friend who had his voting rights restored after serving his time, and you would have thought he had just been granted citizenship. I'm sure he felt the same. The return of his rights gave him an even greater respect for the law and a new determination to live by them.
I agree with it, gun ownership (as well as voting) is a right and you have to earn that right.
When I was a kid, I didn't do my chores and lied about it to my parents, they took away my "right" to go to my friend's birthday party. It sucked but I deserved it.
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02:12 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
I agree with it, gun ownership (as well as voting) is a right and you have to earn that right.
When I was a kid, I didn't do my chores and lied about it to my parents, they took away my "right" to go to my friend's birthday party. It sucked but I deserved it.
But as a citizen you are Born with certain "inalienable rights."
So that right is not earned.
Steve
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02:16 PM
texasfiero Member
Posts: 4674 From: Houston, TX USA Registered: Jun 2003
I agree with it, gun ownership (as well as voting) is a right and you have to earn that right.
When I was a kid, I didn't do my chores and lied about it to my parents, they took away my "right" to go to my friend's birthday party. It sucked but I deserved it.
Same here. Watching my dad strip a cotton stalk or remove his belt, was a frightful moment in which I knew I shouldn't have done that! Likewise, a refusal of access to the car or permission led me to accept my responsibility for proper conduct.
Imposed accountability is a powerful teacher.
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02:18 PM
Fats Member
Posts: 5577 From: Wheaton, Mo. Registered: Jan 2012
I agree with it, gun ownership (as well as voting) is a right and you have to earn that right.
When I was a kid, I didn't do my chores and lied about it to my parents, they took away my "right" to go to my friend's birthday party. It sucked but I deserved it.
Since when do we have to earn our "god given" rights? Since when do you have a "right" to go to a birthday party....Your meaning of the word "right" needs evaluated man.
Brad
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02:20 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
I think some things are basic parts of being "American". Gun ownership and voting rights are among those basics. Naturally a prisoner loses all of those rights, but if a crime deserves X time behind bars, once that time is served, the punishment has been fulfilled. Should a stupid act be a legal anchor around someone's neck for life?
Jonathan
[This message has been edited by Boostdreamer (edited 12-06-2013).]
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02:22 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
Same here. Watching my dad strip a cotton stalk or remove his belt, was a frightful moment in which I knew I shouldn't have done that! Likewise, a refusal of access to the car or permission led me to accept my responsibility for proper conduct.
Imposed accountability is a powerful teacher.
Did your bad behavior result in spankings for life? Forfiture of the priviledge to drive Dad's car for life? At what point do we say that a punishment has been sufficient?
Jonathan
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02:25 PM
fastblack Member
Posts: 3696 From: Riceville, IA Registered: Nov 2003
Maybe my comparison didn't translate across the internet as well as it sounded in my head. In this country there are a number of rules you must obey if you want to be accepted by and allowed to be a part of society. If these rules are broken, there are consequences. All I was trying to say is that I agree with the consequences (as they relate to this discussion). I was loosely comparing it to a punishment I received as a child: do the crime, you have to do the time.
Just my opinion on the subject, take it or leave it.
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02:28 PM
Fats Member
Posts: 5577 From: Wheaton, Mo. Registered: Jan 2012
Did your bad behavior result in spankings for life? Forfiture of the priviledge to drive Dad's car for life? At what point do we say that a punishment has been sufficient?
Jonathan
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02:28 PM
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Fats Member
Posts: 5577 From: Wheaton, Mo. Registered: Jan 2012
Maybe my comparison didn't translate across the internet as well as it sounded in my head. In this country there are a number of rules you must obey if you want to be accepted by and allowed to be a part of society. If these rules are broken, there are consequences. All I was trying to say is that I agree with the consequences (as they relate to this discussion). I was loosely comparing it to a punishment I received as a child: do the crime, you have to do the time.
Just my opinion on the subject, take it or leave it.
And as pointed out above, you are still not allowed to go to any birthday parties, right? Because you seem to agree that at no point does someone actually learn from their mistakes, and punishment needs to go on forever because of their past actions.
Brad
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02:31 PM
texasfiero Member
Posts: 4674 From: Houston, TX USA Registered: Jun 2003
Did your bad behavior result in spankings for life? Forfiture of the priviledge to drive Dad's car for life? At what point do we say that a punishment has been sufficient?
Jonathan
No, they obviously weren't "for life", but I knew that a return to previous activity would have the same, repeated result. It should be the same in society. Failure to live by the laws that society has imposed should carry penalty - punishment. Repayment of that debt should bring forgiveness - restoration. At that point in time, a lesson should have been learned.
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02:37 PM
fastblack Member
Posts: 3696 From: Riceville, IA Registered: Nov 2003
Did your bad behavior result in spankings for life? Forfiture of the priviledge to drive Dad's car for life? At what point do we say that a punishment has been sufficient?
Jonathan
After hitting submit and reading Brad's post this did occur to me. You do have a good point and I suppose it goes back to a point brought up already in maybe it depends on the type of crime that was committed. Should a guy with a felony from fraud be kept from owning guns?? Probably not. Should a guy with a felony for armed burglary or murder be allowed to own a gun? In my mind, absolutely not.
You brought up the point that the punishment (prison time) has been fulfilled but the way I see it, not having the right to own a gun is also part of the punishment.
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02:37 PM
lurker Member
Posts: 12355 From: salisbury nc usa Registered: Feb 2002
IMO there is an assumption underlying "inalienable rights". if life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are inalienable in the strictest sense, then there is no justification whatsoever for arrest, prison or death sentences. the underlying assumption would be something along the lines of "peaceful, law-abiding citizens". of course, one person may take a different view of what constitutes a "peaceful, law-abiding citizen" than another person, which is why we have the "rule of law" and a judicial system. as flawed as it may be, it's (A) the system we've got, and (B) the best we're likely to get.
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02:42 PM
Fats Member
Posts: 5577 From: Wheaton, Mo. Registered: Jan 2012
IMO there is an assumption underlying "inalienable rights". if life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are inalienable in the strictest sense, then there is no justification whatsoever for arrest, prison or death sentences. the underlying assumption would be something along the lines of "peaceful, law-abiding citizens". of course, one person may take a different view of what constitutes a "peaceful, law-abiding citizen" than another person, which is why we have the "rule of law" and a judicial system. as flawed as it may be, it's (A) the system we've got, and (B) the best we're likely to get.
Man....B sucks.
Brad
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02:45 PM
Fats Member
Posts: 5577 From: Wheaton, Mo. Registered: Jan 2012
After hitting submit and reading Brad's post this did occur to me. You do have a good point and I suppose it goes back to a point brought up already in maybe it depends on the type of crime that was committed. Should a guy with a felony from fraud be kept from owning guns?? Probably not. Should a guy with a felony for armed burglary or murder be allowed to own a gun? In my mind, absolutely not.
You brought up the point that the punishment (prison time) has been fulfilled but the way I see it, not having the right to own a gun is also part of the punishment.
OK, so my argument;
If the prison time is to "fix" the felon, and make him pay for his crimes. Why doesn't the punishment end when he's paid for his crimes? If he's not going to be "better", than why is he allowed out of prison in the first place?
Brad
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02:48 PM
fierofool Member
Posts: 12995 From: Auburn, Georgia USA Registered: Jan 2002
If the felony crime was one of a violent nature, then they should lose their rights to own firearms. Many non-violent felons lose their rights because they stole a car from a parking lot when the keys were left in it or a person in accounts payable embezzled money. Others because they were caught with certain types of drugs. Just this morning I saw a story about a teenager that picked up a piece of the car that Paul Walker was driving. It was a piece that was left at the crash scene after things were cleaned up. He's just 16 and screwed for life.
Anyone convicted of a felony that was the result of violence, whether it was with the use of a firearm or not, may be prone to future violence.
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02:54 PM
jimbolaya Member
Posts: 10652 From: Virginia Beach, Virginia Registered: Feb 2007
Agree, I think if they committed a crime using a gun, or certain other types of violent crimes, then yes. On some other crimes I think the right should be taken away while they serve their penance. Of course this happens when you are in prison, but I'm talking about probation or any other non lockup punishments. Once the sentence, and or probation is over, voting and gun rights should be returned. If the person repeats their crime, then they should lose it permanently. I'm only considering felonies, not really considering petty stuff, but of course I am not an encyclopedia of crimes either.
Jim
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02:56 PM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
If the felon is convicted for a crime in which he/she used a firearm in an aggressive or threatening manner--shot at someone, used a gun to intimidate someone, or even "pistol whipped" someone--they lose the right to legal gun ownership for life.
Otherwise, their gun rights would be restored upon their release.
My 2¢ worth.
Second thought: I dunno. Might cause first time criminals to switch over to using knives, baseball bats and what-not.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 12-06-2013).]
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02:59 PM
Boostdreamer Member
Posts: 7175 From: Kingsport, Tennessee USA Registered: Jun 2007
When a person comes out of prison, he either wants to live by the law or he has no intention to. That will be his choice and no amount of time behind bars can make him be one way or the other. If a crime requires X time, he is released after time is served. If society is still worried about his behavior at that time, the law should be changed to increase the time behind bars. It's cheaper to keep an eye on him in prison than trying to keep tabs on him on the streets.
Jonathan
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03:17 PM
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rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
From what Ive seen, prisons reform very very very few if any criminals. To be imprisoned usually means they have broken the law at least 2 times. Everyone almost gets one get out of jail free card ONCE except for more serious crimes. Burglary or something similar, with any kind of decent lawyer, usually will get a first offender probation with no time. I agree that all prison really is a college for criminals. If your a convicted felon I think you should lose a lot of rights...like owning guns and voting myself. A conviction means your found quilty of not following laws. Im a firm believer that once a criminal...always a criminal. Stats show far more released felons go right back to criminal activity within even days of being released than go on to the a lawful life. Thats the reason if a wild animal kills a person, its hunted down and killed asap...because it gets a 'taste' for it.
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03:49 PM
Fats Member
Posts: 5577 From: Wheaton, Mo. Registered: Jan 2012
Just this morning I saw a story about a teenager that picked up a piece of the car that Paul Walker was driving. It was a piece that was left at the crash scene after things were cleaned up. He's just 16 and screwed for life.
I haven't seen that one. I've seen the one where an 18 year old stole the roof panel from the tow truck at a stop light.
The panel was worth anywhere from 2,000-6,000 dollars on its own, not counting the provenance of the part. Then the kid posted it on Facebook, with pictures saying what it was, and where he got it from.
The "kid" in this case was an adult, and the crime he is accused of committing is certainly a felony. (Not counting his sheer stupidity.)
Brad
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04:08 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37837 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Says the man who carries a recorder to keep police honest. I understand your feelings but I don't understand what you are saying. We, the beacon of freedom to the world, have more persons incarcerated in prison per capita than any other country on Earth. It is big business. When ever we fill up a lock up (prison or jail), we build more and fill them up too. We have to. When we can not afford to build more, we let them out early. Sometimes, actually many times, we contract out the housing of derelicts to private companies or other jurisdictions. Prison construction is, and always has been, booming. Multi billion dollar legal costs. Fines. Jail guards, police, court personnel, bondsman, medical staff, the number of employees the legal system creates is mind boggling. To the thread question ... no. What part of the second amendment do we not understand. I can see if one uses a firearm in the commission of a crime, maybe. In those cases I would prefer to see a longer prison sentence. ( Speaking of which ... why do we let them out early ? )
quote
Originally posted by fastblack: In this country there are a number of rules you must obey if you want to be accepted by and allowed to be a part of society.
Like it or not, once a person is out of prison, they are a member of society. We make it hard for them to get a job, they will have to resort to crime again. Not really but we enhance the allure. We also leave them so discouraged that they are less likely to give a damn. Why are we taking their gun rights ? Why not their right to freedom of speech, or religion ? I wonder why this denial of gun ownership has not gone to the US Supreme Court.
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04:53 PM
Fats Member
Posts: 5577 From: Wheaton, Mo. Registered: Jan 2012
Like it or not, once a person is out of prison, they are a member of society. We make it hard for them to get a job, they will have to resort to crime again. Not really but we enhance the allure. We also leave them so discouraged that they are less likely to give a damn. Why are we taking their gun rights ? Why not their right to freedom of speech, or religion ? I wonder why this denial of gun ownership has not gone to the US Supreme Court.
Felons should never be allowed to return to society. ( not talking a traffic ticket or jay walking of course.. but true hard core crime against fellow humans )
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05:44 PM
Fats Member
Posts: 5577 From: Wheaton, Mo. Registered: Jan 2012
Felons should never be allowed to return to society. ( not talking a traffic ticket or jay walking of course.. but true hard core crime against fellow humans )
