What is a president in a presidential constitutional republic to do when faced with an intransigent, bull-headed faction among his people's representatives?
Well, Boris Yeltsin, Russia's first democratically elected president, was once faced with a similar situation exactly 20 years ago, in October 1993. The parliament, then called the Supreme Soviet, was increasingly against Yeltsin's neoliberal economic reforms (suggested to him by young Western advisors like Jeffrey Sachs). On one hand, these reforms freed up the old Soviet command economy. On the other, they drove the country into chaos and violence, and left tens of millions impoverished, their savings nullified by skyrocketing inflation. The parliament, dominated by old Soviet conservatives, was increasingly against these reforms and refused to confirm Yeltsin's key economic advisor. Yeltsin held a national referendum, a sort of national vote of confidence, which he won, and used it as a justification for what he did next.
Almost exactly 20 years ago, he dissolved parliament. The vice president and the speaker of the parliament dissolved Yeltsin's presidency, and holed up with their supporters in the parliament's headquarters, now known as "the White House."
Then Yeltsin did this to it.
Are you prepared?
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08:47 PM
PFF
System Bot
Firefighter Member
Posts: 1407 From: Southold, New York, USA Registered: Nov 2004
Since the guys on this forum are sometimes not so understanding of the opinions of others on political issues and crucify the presenter with a barage of negative ratings I will wait for some brave soul to step forward before I say "send them all to Siberia". OOPS, I said it.
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08:54 PM
texasfiero Member
Posts: 4674 From: Houston, TX USA Registered: Jun 2003
Frankly, I think that the tea party scares the hell out of both sides of the aisle is a very good thing.
Kinda like Ross Perot did a while back. He didn't have a snowball's chance in hell to get the presidency. But he made a lot of voters start to ask the right questions. I'm sure 'ol Ross had some of the Capital Hill elitists shaking in their boots.
As usual, I agree with some of the republicans, some of the democrats, and some of the tea party. I absolutely don't agree with all of any of them. I think that those who agree with all of any party are suffering from propaganda and a closed mind. I probably earned myself another negative. Some times I don't have the good sense to keep my mouth shut. I should say that I don't expect anyone to agree with everything that I say either.
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10:18 PM
NoMoreRicers Member
Posts: 2192 From: Spokane, WA Registered: Mar 2009
[SIZE=2]What is a president in a presidential constitutional republic to do when faced with an intransigent, bull-headed faction among his people's representatives?
You must not be aware that the obama administration IS the intransant,bull headed........ So What are they to do? Quit their job and start working somwere,..like at a real job..LOL yah right.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 10-04-2013).]
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01:00 AM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Kinda like Ross Perot did a while back. He didn't have a snowball's chance in hell to get the presidency. But he made a lot of voters start to ask the right questions. I'm sure 'ol Ross had some of the Capital Hill elitists shaking in their boots.
Unless it is being drowned out by all the background noise, I just do not hear of too many people jumping behind the tea party in all of this. It seems the majority fo folks (even many fiscal conservatives) are rather dismayed by the plan (or lack thereof) being displayed by the tea party in this budget standoff.
Unless it is being drowned out by all the background noise, I just do not hear of too many people jumping behind the tea party in all of this. It seems the majority fo folks (even many fiscal conservatives) are rather dismayed by the plan (or lack thereof) being displayed by the tea party in this budget standoff.
Agreed the Tea Party appear to be playing to their base which isn't growing with their latest antics. They are also emphasizing a rift in the GOP which can't be good IMO.
What follows is merely my personal opinion..... Seems they want to force the country into crisis (they would say it's already in one, and partially may be correct) thinking the public will choose them to pick up the pieces. The trouble is many of their followers don't seem to realize or care what they may face if a true immediate crisis actually occurs. Others actually think their ready for one..
[This message has been edited by newf (edited 10-04-2013).]
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01:22 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Agreed the Tea Party appear to be playing to their base which isn't growing with their latest antics. They are also emphasizing a rift in the GOP which can't be good IMO.
What follows is merely my personal opinion..... Seems they want to force the country into crisis
See I dont think they caused the current shutdown, and couldnt cause the default , since they wanted cuts. But you are right these are opinions.
Maybe it's just me...
quote
So far, polls suggest that most Americans are putting the blame on the Republicans.
In the meantime, here is a sampling of what newspaper editorials have said in recent days about which political factions they believe are responsible for the shutdown:
Wall Street Journal
“We support the Republican effort to get the best deal they can, especially in the face of Mr. Obama's cynicism. But sooner or later the GOP will have to fund the government and raise the debt ceiling that expires two weeks from now.”
New York Times
“Republicans routinely claim, without evidence, that the Affordable Care Act is hurting the economy. But they ignore the actual damage that their single-minded crusade against the law has done to the country.”
USA Today
“This shutdown, the first in 17 years, isn't the result of two parties acting equally irresponsibly. It is the product of an increasingly radicalized Republican Party, controlled by a disaffected base that demands legislative hostage-taking in an effort to get what it has not been able to attain by the usual means: winning elections.”
Los Angeles Times
“Unlike the GOP's previous flirtations with a government shutdown, this fight isn't being waged in the name of lower deficits and debt. It's just a desperate attempt to score political points against the Affordable Care Act before it goes fully into effect and the benefits become clearer.”
Denver Post
“This is a battle Republicans cannot win. President Obama and Senate Democrats have no incentive to offer concessions so long as the public doesn't hold them responsible for any resulting hardship. Republicans are most likely to be blamed, and then, when the consequences get bad enough, they'll have little choice but to capitulate.”
Tampa Bay Times
“The blame for the federal government shutdown that affects millions of Americans rests squarely on the backs of House Republicans who would rather protest President Barack Obama's health-care reform than govern the country. They have created an avoidable crisis by clinging to a political strategy that is doomed to fail, and Florida Republicans who are falling in line with the extremists are part of the problem rather than the solution.”
Kansas City Star
“The government of the people of the United States is partially shut down because a faction of the Republican Party insists on tying further spending to the crippling of President Barack Obama’s health-care law. This is a new low in our nation’s politics. Americans have every reason to be ashamed of their Congress right now.”
[This message has been edited by newf (edited 10-04-2013).]
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02:08 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Did anyone else;s head explode reading "conservative Soviets"??? Are you kidding? You mean those conservative Soviets who were fighting Yeltsin in his reforms to make government SMALLER and more responsive to the citizenry?? I read some other leftist idiot on the internet yesterday advocating ARRESTING republican congressmen because of a "legislative strike".
I was the first to reply and I guess I did not get crucified as I thought I would. So, is affordable health care a good thing? YES! Is the Affordable Care Act and what it contains the right approach? If you have gone on the site or read many articles as I have, it is totally confusing and in some cases not actually affordable even with a subsidy. Although I believe that all should have care and pay something for it, Obamacare may die on its own without the Tea Party guys trying to kill it. Stay tuned.
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04:56 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 25557 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Frankly, I think that the tea party scares the hell out of both sides of the aisle is a very good thing.
I still, really... don't think you guys understand what the Tea Party is. It's not a group, it's not an organization... it's a set of ideals that the government should have a balanced budged and less regulation. If you guys still don't understand this and think it's a political party, then you're just not doing enough reading. The Democrats make it sound like it's some very organized consortium, but it's just a set of ideal. You have PACs that have formed called Tea Party Express, etc... but they are in name only.
Ignore the rhetoric about it being a small radical faction in the Republican ranks that Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi keep belting out. Republicans want a balanced budget, and less regulation. That's all Republicans want. If you are against those two fundamental ideas, then you should ask yourself why.
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05:10 PM
Lilchief Member
Posts: 1759 From: Vevay,Indiana Registered: Feb 2004
My opinion is someone had to step in and stop this runaway spending and balance the budget. Our children and their children will be spending the rest of their lives paying for obama's idealizum. Is that what everybody wants, I hope not. If so there's not enough vasiline to stop the pain. Just my opinion.
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05:14 PM
Fformula88 Member
Posts: 7891 From: Buffalo, NY Registered: Mar 2000
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I still, really... don't think you guys understand what the Tea Party is. It's not a group, it's not an organization... it's a set of ideals that the government should have a balanced budged and less regulation. If you guys still don't understand this and think it's a political party, then you're just not doing enough reading. The Democrats make it sound like it's some very organized consortium, but it's just a set of ideal. You have PACs that have formed called Tea Party Express, etc... but they are in name only.
Ignore the rhetoric about it being a small radical faction in the Republican ranks that Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi keep belting out. Republicans want a balanced budget, and less regulation. That's all Republicans want. If you are against those two fundamental ideas, then you should ask yourself why.
Not everyone unhappy with the present showdown is against those ideals. They just agree with the tactics of the present showdown to arrive at them.
Even many within the GOP who are outspoken in opposing ACA and also wanting a balanced budget have been critical of this strategy. They have gone along with it, maybe in part due to not having too many other options at the present. Also I think they climbed on board since it may be a last chance effort to kill ACA. (None of this mentions the dyamics of the internal GOP power struggle which is going on).
Even Boehner recognizes the danger of a default. If a default does the economic damage that is feared, balancing the budget a little quicker is going to be a pipe dream as economic activity and government revenue dries up.
[This message has been edited by Fformula88 (edited 10-04-2013).]
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I still, really... don't think you guys understand what the Tea Party is. It's not a group, it's not an organization... it's a set of ideals that the government should have a balanced budged and less regulation. If you guys still don't understand this and think it's a political party, then you're just not doing enough reading. The Democrats make it sound like it's some very organized consortium, but it's just a set of ideal. You have PACs that have formed called Tea Party Express, etc... but they are in name only.
Ignore the rhetoric about it being a small radical faction in the Republican ranks that Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi keep belting out. Republicans want a balanced budget, and less regulation. That's all Republicans want. If you are against those two fundamental ideas, then you should ask yourself why.
Not everyone unhappy with the present showdown is against those ideals. They just agree with the tactics of the present showdown to arrive at them.
Even many within the GOP who are outspoken in opposing ACA and also wanting a balanced budget have been critical of this strategy. They have gone along with it, maybe in part due to not having too many other options at the present. Also I think they climbed on board since it may be a last chance effort to kill ACA. (None of this mentions the dyamics of the internal GOP power struggle which is going on).
Even Boehner recognizes the danger of a default. If a default does the economic damage that is feared, balancing the budget a little quicker is going to be a pipe dream as economic activity and government revenue dries up.
Using the default is nothing more than propaganda. The government prints it's own money and the Fed can buy it's own bonds... NOT defaulting is as simple as a few people signing a piece of legislation, which could get done extremely fast. I can assure you that the president does NOT want the country to default. Say what you want about the man, but he does have an ego. In 20 years, no one will remember who's fault it was that the country defaulted, but they WILL remember that he was president when the economy tanked (and will continue to be president for another 3 years). He's absolutely concerned about his legacy, and I can assure you he won't let that happen, nor do the Republicans want that to happen. So even being scared about it is rather silly... quite frankly.
And Democrats do NOT want a reduction in spending, or less regulation. They may SAY they do, but they certainly don't vote that way. Even if you cut military spending (which Obama doesn't want either), they absolutely do not want entitlement or welfare reform. Whether it's because they want to help the "poor" or they just want more votes is besides the point.
Not everyone unhappy with the present showdown is against those ideals. They just agree with the tactics of the present showdown to arrive at them.
Even many within the GOP who are outspoken in opposing ACA and also wanting a balanced budget have been critical of this strategy. They have gone along with it, maybe in part due to not having too many other options at the present. Also I think they climbed on board since it may be a last chance effort to kill ACA. (None of this mentions the dyamics of the internal GOP power struggle which is going on).
Even Boehner recognizes the danger of a default. If a default does the economic damage that is feared, balancing the budget a little quicker is going to be a pipe dream as economic activity and government revenue dries up.
Good assessment.
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05:24 PM
NEPTUNE Member
Posts: 10199 From: Ticlaw FL, and some other places. Registered: Aug 2001
NOTHING! They'll continue to cut their own throats.
Let the extremists continue to kill the Republican party. They're doing a better job than any Democrat could. Most main stream Americans are frustrated with the current government gridlock, and the loss of essential services. Most place the blame on the Republican congress in general, and in particular the 'Tea party" crazies who have no idea how to get things done.
BTW, I was talking to a clerk in Wal Mart sporting goods today. She was tired of telling customers that they can't sell guns because of the government shutdown, and Wal Mart can't do background checks.
------------------ Drive safely!
[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 10-06-2013).]
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06:30 PM
aqua-man Member
Posts: 1132 From: Pennsylvania, USA Registered: Nov 2002
NOTHING! They'll continue to cut their own throats.
Let the extremists continue to kill the Republican party. They're doing a better job than any Democrat could. Most main stream Americans are frustrated with the current government gridlock, and the loss of essential services. Most place the blame on the Republican congress in general, and in particular the 'Tea party" crazies who have no idea how to get things done.
BTW, I was talking to a clerk in Wal Mart sporting goods today. She was tired of telling customers that they can't sell guns of ammo because of the government shutdown, and Wal Mart can't do background checks.
You must be in denial. There are plenty of fiscally conservative democrats that consider themselves tea party supporters. Your whole party is not made up of the loony progressives and far left tax and spend liberals. Your right though about people being fed up though, this will be an eye opener for many as more time goes by and the lefty spin gets thinner.
It's funny how everyone keeps talking about the tea party being dead, not having any support, blah blah blah. But every election new tea party favorites keep replacing party line dems and repubs on state and federal levels.
Most main stream Americans are frustrated with the current government gridlock, and the loss of essential services. Most place the blame on the Republican congress in general, and in particular the 'Tea party" crazies who have no idea how to get things done.
I guess I have not been to the right places this week. Were you in line at a federal government office? As for loss of services, I have been in two doctor's office and at Walmart three times. Didn't hear anyone complaining about parks being closed, or not being able to fly because of no air traffic controllers. The only place I have encountered the words Tea Party has been here, and brought up by left wing crazies.
Ammo is selling very well and without impediment in this end of FL.
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06:02 AM
bonzo Member
Posts: 1350 From: Jacksonville, FL, USA Registered: Jul 2003
As usual, I agree with some of the republicans, some of the democrats, and some of the tea party. I absolutely don't agree with all of any of them. I think that those who agree with all of any party are suffering from propaganda and a closed mind. I probably earned myself another negative. Some times I don't have the good sense to keep my mouth shut. I should say that I don't expect anyone to agree with everything that I say either.
Sure universal health care is a wonderful thing, and sure it is a PITA to not have health care or to go broke over it, but....
Obama is spending money that you don't have. Every nickel he is spending on Obamacare is borrowed money
The Tea Party are labelled by the liberal press as kooks and hicks but all they are asking for is for the government not to spend money it does not have.
Which one of us runs our own household the way Obama runs America. Do we go out and borrow money we can't pay back just to have things we cannot afford?
My provincial government in Ontario is doing the same thing. They've brought in Billions of dollars of expenditures on borrowed money.
So what if the government is forced to reign in expenditures. It is doing a big favor for all my American cousins
Obama should go back to being a social worker. He knows squat about running a secure and prosperous America, and that my friends, is the tragedy of our age
Arn
[This message has been edited by Arns85GT (edited 10-05-2013).]
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08:12 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Good evening, America. Allow me first to apologize for this interruption. I do, like many of you, appreciate the comforts of every day routine- the security of the familiar, the tranquility of repetition. I enjoy them as much as any guy. I thought we could mark this day by taking some time out of our daily lives to sit down and have a little chat. There are of course those who do not want us to speak. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, the economy. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to President 0bama. He promised you peace, he promised you health insurance, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 10-05-2013).]
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09:18 PM
Oct 6th, 2013
partfiero Member
Posts: 6923 From: Tucson, Arizona Registered: Jan 2002
NOTHING! They'll continue to cut their own throats.
Let the extremists continue to kill the Republican party. They're doing a better job than any Democrat could. Most main stream Americans are frustrated with the current government gridlock, and the loss of essential services. Most place the blame on the Republican congress in general, and in particular the 'Tea party" crazies who have no idea how to get things done.
BTW, I was talking to a clerk in Wal Mart sporting goods today. She was tired of telling customers that they can't sell guns of ammo because of the government shutdown, and Wal Mart can't do background checks.
I remember right after the 08 election you wrote about your slobbering love for Obama and stated that a republican would never be elected again to anything. Considering the emergence of the Tea party and the 2010 election, I hang on the edge of my seat waiting for your next prediction. I heard the Tea Party is still growing, and the far left which controls your party are very worried 2014 may be a repeat of 2010. The fact they are demonizing them at every turn should tell you that they are alive and kicking.
This site is run by Dale Robertson who bills himself as the founder of the Tea Party. He is NOT the founder and his website is NOT the "official" Tea Party.
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12:24 AM
Old Lar Member
Posts: 13798 From: Palm Bay, Florida Registered: Nov 1999
remember who is behind the curtains or underneath the tea party astro-turf the bro's koch inc paid for the tea party ...And George Soros paid for Obama
just like their daddy funded/founded the john birch society in the 50's remember the guys who call ike a commie ? While Reid calls the R terrorists
then allied with the KKK in the 60's over civil and voting rights then led the white southern defection to the GOP in the 70's when the KKK failed While most KKK were founded by the democrats
really think this time UNLIKE last times those guys got it right ?
