Ok so heres whats been goin on: Ever since my brother turned 21 last june he's become quite the alcoholic. While I enjoy things like a good drink here and there, I ALWAYS make sure my bills and what-not are covered first. He spends pretty much 80% of his paychecks on booze and more booze. Like, I get that he's an adult now and he makes his own choices good or bad in life - I really do. Its just since he picked up the bottle, he's stopped everything - he doesnt fix/build computers any more, doesnt work on his Z anymore, doesnt do anything cept wait for his next paycheck so he can spend it all on alcohol. I was keepin my mouth shut till today, when he asked to borrow 90 bucks to pay part of his car loan and for gas so he can go out to the bar in south bend. I told him no, and since I did he's popped a headgasket. I told him he needs to get his life straightened out or he's not getting any help from me. He had a tantrum and stormed off. I mean, I dunno what I should do. Used to be if I had to make a point clear to him Id just lock my toolbox up and his Z keys in it and he'd come back to reality. But now that he's been drinking, he doesnt care at all. I thought maybe if I'd just go ahead and finish his Z that he'd snap back to reality and want to drive it and what-not. Unfortunatley with how he's been drinkin n drivein lately, I feel it'd just end up being a coffin for him Any of you guys deal with a family member/close friend thats gone down this road? If so, what'd you do? Thanks -Ben

I think its good you said no. But ask him whats bothering him, if something is, or what happened that made him change. Maybe ask his friends.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 04-04-2013).]

Do not participate. no money, no work, no support, tell him why. I became a heavy drinker 21 to 22 and when I realized that all my money that should have been going to savings went to liquor I quit. It was not pretty for a couple weeks, I had to have no alcohol. How messed up would you be if you fixed his car and he killed himself driving drunk?

Are you guys living in the same space? Who is paying the bills?

I agree. You did the right thing.
Substance abusers are the worst at blaming other people for their problems.

I also wonder what your situation is. (I'm guessing that you are older than he is.)
After peoples' sympathy runs out, the next thing he may do is start stealing. From you or anybody else that he can.
NOT because he's a bad person. Just because he's that "impaired".

its called "tough love" for a reason. its hard not to help a self destructing family member self destruct ( or friend ) but its the right thing to do.

quote Originally posted by HoMiE_TeLeFrAgGeD: Used to be if I had to make a point clear to him Id just lock my toolbox up and his Z keys in it

Couple points...

I too have been thru periods of heavy drinking in life, and it DOES NOT mean "alcoholic" by any means (as much as social engineers like to push the "addiction" model to build their cash cow). It is quite possibly escapism or a level of stress/ pressure that hiding in a bottle is the only way his mind has found to cope (numb the pain, so to speak). Yeh true some of our brains are wired differently and we find pleasure in different things, and for him a good beer buzz might be one of those things. Some of our brains also lack that "enough/off" switch and will drink until passed out, and even if the switch works its a fiero part starting working again all on its own.......just a couple ideas to toss out there, with the personal experience

THAT keys thing right there might be part of the problem--I know personally, if somebody stole my property and locked it away from me like that, they would WISH they were dealing with someone as kind as satan. NOBODY gets that kind of power over me and whats mine. Its a killing offence as far as I am concerned....If ya want to prevent drunk driving threaten to call the cops, and do it if he gets in the car--but DONT try and sieze power and authority over what is his. THAT breeed a MASSIVE ammount of hatred and ressentment--IOW--KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF WHAT DOESNT BELONG TO YOU. YOU ARE NOT IN CHARGE. (believe me, been there done that and still doing it in some ways with a mother who thinks she can take whatever she wants whenever she wants. Its only pure self-controll that has kept her out of intensive care all these years)

And really (again, voice of experience) if you have been taking and locking away HIS stuff for some period of time, the 1st and 2nd paragrahps I typed could very well be inter-related.

<edit>
I'll give some more input on this after work tonight, dont have time now.

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 04-04-2013).]

quote Originally posted by FriendGregory: Do not participate. no money, no work, no support, tell him why. I became a heavy drinker 21 to 22 and when I realized that all my money that should have been going to savings went to liquor I quit. It was not pretty for a couple weeks, I had to have no alcohol. How messed up would you be if you fixed his car and he killed himself driving drunk? Are you guys living in the same space? Who is paying the bills?

Thats exactly what I tried to rationalize - giving a drunk person a 400HP 2 seater = death. We do live in the same space, but we both pay our own ways. Which is why I was taken back when he asked me for money to pay his bills - especially when hes an IT and makes double what I do every week. Glad to hear you overcame it though.

I think the best thing you can do is get him in to rehab. St. Elizabeth in Falmouth, Ky. is a good place. Then he needs to get into AA before alcohol ruins his life. Been going through that with my best friend/roommate. 37 days sober now for him. I made a deal with him that i would not drink also. I have never had a problem with drinking and could take it or leave it. Alcoholism is a disease for which there is no cure. Stand by him and get him some help. So glad I never gave up on my best friend.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: I agree. You did the right thing. Substance abusers are the worst at blaming other people for their problems.

That must be why people want to legalize drugs? Make it legal and the problems just go away and the gov gets rich selling dope. Makes perfect sense,.... to somebody.

quote Originally posted by Jims 84: I think the best thing you can do is get him in to rehab..

He has to want to change, otherwise its a waste of everyone time.

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: Couple points... I too have been thru periods of heavy drinking in life, and it DOES NOT mean "alcoholic" by any means (as much as social engineers like to push the "addiction" model to build their cash cow). It is quite possibly escapism or a level of stress/ pressure that hiding in a bottle is the only way his mind has found to cope (numb the pain, so to speak). Yeh true some of our brains are wired differently and we find pleasure in different things, and for him a good beer buzz might be one of those things. Some of our brains also lack that "enough/off" switch and will drink until passed out, and even if the switch works its a fiero part starting working again all on its own.......just a couple ideas to toss out there, with the personal experience THAT keys thing right there might be part of the problem--I know personally, if somebody stole my property and locked it away from me like that, they would WISH they were dealing with someone as kind as satan. NOBODY gets that kind of power over me and whats mine. Its a killing offence as far as I am concerned....If ya want to prevent drunk driving threaten to call the cops, and do it if he gets in the car--but DONT try and sieze power and authority over what is his. THAT breeed a MASSIVE ammount of hatred and ressentment--IOW--KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF WHAT DOESNT BELONG TO YOU. YOU ARE NOT IN CHARGE. (believe me, been there done that and still doing it in some ways with a mother who thinks she can take whatever she wants whenever she wants. Its only pure self-controll that has kept her out of intensive care all these years) And really (again, voice of experience) if you have been taking and locking away HIS stuff for some period of time, the 1st and 2nd paragrahps I typed could very well be inter-related.

I get what your saying, but its better than letting him drive it drunk. I told him if he was ever gonna be out drinking to leave the Z at home and ride with someone else. Then, he wrecked his Z drinkin and drivin it. Of course, then I get to help him put it back together/help him get another Z. He's on his 3rd 300ZX as he's wrecked the 1st 2. Last one he was out drinking and racing someone and barrelrolled it doing idk how fast and spent a week in the hospital. If he asked for his keys back, Id give them to him he knows that. Its the point I was trying to drive home that I dont want to go to his funeral this early in life. So thats why I locked them up in there - to try and get him to see why I dont want him to drive that kinda car drunk. The keys have been hangin on the peg for the past 5 monthes now and he doesnt even care about the car right now. Its sat pretty much 7 monthes now and he doesnt care about it, the family, or anyone. Cept the bartender - he needs that person in his life...

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: That must be why people want to legalize drugs? Make it legal and the problems just go away and the gov gets rich selling dope. Makes perfect sense,.... to somebody.

Hijack. Not the point here.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: He has to want to change, otherwise its a waste of everyone time.

X2. As much as I want to help him, he's gotta want the help first. At this point in time, he doesnt care. So I really cant say/do anything he's gonna hear...

quote Originally posted by HoMiE_TeLeFrAgGeD: Which is why I was taken back when he asked me for money to pay his bills - especially when hes an IT and makes double what I do every week. ...

Watch him and make sure its not illegal stuff besides alcohol. Or gambling probs? Seems like a lotta dough hes burning thru.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 04-04-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Hijack. Not the point here.

OK, then IF he is the only person "harmed", why stop him. No victims here, live and let live.....right?

FYI MEM, people who care about other people who temporarily in their "alcohol soaked brain" state of being don`t have the mental capacity to determine if they should drive or not, those people take the keys away.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: That must be why people want to legalize drugs? Make it legal and the problems just go away and the gov gets rich selling dope. Makes perfect sense,.... to somebody.

Wow Rick, are just trying to be ironic or are you stupid. Legalize the drugs, the people do not go to jail for possession or use and can get treatment without the legal implications that at some point you had in your possession a drug that could get you 10 years in jail. Let me ask, are you pro mandatory sentences?

quote Originally posted by TXGOOD: FYI MEM, people who care about other people who temporarily in their "alcohol soaked brain" state of being don`t have the mental capacity to determine if they should drive or not, those people take the keys away.

Exactly why I did it. I COULD threaten to call the police, and when he starts driving call them, but he's the type to run from the police sober. Id HATE to see what he'd try to do full throttle drunk.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Watch him and make sure its not illegal stuff besides alcohol. Or gambling probs? Seems like a lotta dough hes burning thru.

I havent noticed anything like that. He has started to smoke a lot, but I cant say much there as I smoke cigars myself. Its mainly literally spent on booze and bills - but lately just booze. I sat down and talked about it with my dad, and he revealed that he had a drinking problem at his age as well. He said if it wasnt for my mother and college he'd have fallen off the wagon completely.

quote How can family members help a person who is out of control of their drinking? Stop hiding the problem. If you have been keeping it a secret, stop doing so. Tell other close family members, the family doctor, your family priest, others in a good position to provide real help and support. If everyone close to the scene or who can provide real help knows about it, then the problem can be faced. Assemble support. Plan to talk to the alcohol-addicted person with whichever family members they respect the most and who can be the calmest. Don't try to talk to the person when he or she has been drinking or when they are highly stressed. Find a time when they are sober and as untroubled as possible. For most drinkers, this is early in the day. As a calm, non-accusative team, confront the person with the damage being caused to the person, the family and other areas (job, business, finance, community, career) by the drinking. Be specific but as patient and uncritical as you can be. However, do not back down or sympathize. If this is the first time you have confronted the alcoholic on their behavior, then you can consider whether or not to give them a chance to quit drinking on their own. If the drinking has gone on for some years, it is practically certain that the body of the alcoholic will be so addicted to alcohol that the person will be unable to quit on their own. If the person has already been given a chance to quit and has failed and perhaps also provided plenty of excuses as to their failure, then this is the time to talk about an alcohol rehab facility. If the alcoholic refuses to talk about going to rehab, the family will have to agree on the next steps to take. They may include refusing to bail the person out of legal, financial, professional or personal problems. If the person has been being housed for free, the family may have to agree to refuse to provide this support if there's no trip to rehab. If these steps fail, then consider if there is someone else that the alcoholic considers an authority. See if that person can help convince the alcoholic to seek help. If all these steps fail, the next step the family should take is to contact an interventionist with experience working with an addicted person. Bring the interventionist in and give him or her all they help they request, to get your loved one to agree to get help.

quote Originally posted by FriendGregory: Wow Rick, are just trying to be ironic or are you stupid. Let me ask, are you pro mandatory sentences?

Something tells me you don't care what my answer is?

Intervention. cut and dry.

http://alcoholism.about.com...pro/a/free_rehab.htm

Show him where help is available. With tough love he just may see the need for help.

He just may thank you later for saving his life.

quote Originally posted by HoMiE_TeLeFrAgGeD: I havent noticed anything like that. He has started to smoke a lot, but I cant say much there as I smoke cigars myself. Its mainly literally spent on booze and bills - but lately just booze. I sat down and talked about it with my dad, and he revealed that he had a drinking problem at his age as well. He said if it wasnt for my mother and college he'd have fallen off the wagon completely.

Is your family (dad) advising or helping out with the situation then? He can probably relate well.

The risk of alcohol abuse is said to be much higher if a family history exists.
http://www.militarymentalhe...y-of-alcoholism.aspx

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 04-04-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: Something tells me you don't care what my answer is?

No, I am really hoping for ironic. The only people that benefit from illegal is the criminal justice system.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: That must be why people want to legalize drugs? Make it legal and the problems just go away and the gov gets rich selling dope. Makes perfect sense,.... to somebody.

Hey, if you want to start a thread on the benefits and ethics of prohibition... I would love to join in. But I think we can both agree this isn't the thread to do it.

quote Originally posted by NoMoreRicers: Hey, if you want to start a thread on the benefits and ethics of prohibition... I would love to join in. But I think we can both agree this isn't the thread to do it.

Yah, I guess you are right, alcoholism is a totally different and unrelated kind of addiction. And adding more addictive substances to the list of legal bad things to create more addicts probably wont harm all that many people anyways. My bad.

Homie, I apologize for feeding the troll.

quote Originally posted by NoMoreRicers: Homie, I apologize for feeding the troll.

I am not your 'homie", but you could call me Fiero brother or something like that.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: I am not your 'homie", but you could call me Fiero brother or something like that.

The OP is Homie.

If you get nothing else out of this, remember this one thing: Alcoholics are irrational, period. And you CAN NOT rationalize with an irrational person. Period, again.

Unfortunately there's only one thing you can do, sit by and watch him crash and burn. Period. You have to let him go through whatever he has to go through before he'll change anything. It's hard, but you got to. I watched my sister self destruct. It took a lot of years and was a difficult time, but she finally reached the lowest point of her life (she was raped by someone who followed her home from a bar). That was what it took to make her change.

Be tough, it'll all work out. Or it won't. But it's not in your hands either way.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: I am not your 'homie", but you could call me Fiero brother or something like that.

I think NMR was talking to me...

NMR, Its cool it happends sometimes. I just feel like if I try an intervention thing thats just going to push him into it more. Then, hes gonna make even bigger mistakes from there.... :/

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: If you get nothing else out of this, remember this one thing: Alcoholics are irrational, period. And you CAN NOT rationalize with an irrational person. Period, again.

And drug addicts as well.

quote Originally posted by HoMiE_TeLeFrAgGeD: I think NMR was talking to me... NMR, Its cool it happends sometimes. I just feel like if I try an intervention thing thats just going to push him into it more. Then, hes gonna make even bigger mistakes from there.... :/

You know him not us. We can only give outsider advice. There may be websites that mention that fear. Like the one No More Ricers quoted from?

quote Originally posted by HoMiE_TeLeFrAgGeD: I think NMR was talking to me...

He has made himself clear, and so have I

OP/HoMiE: I feel for you in the position you are in. There is NO easy answer to you dilemma. It seems easier to prevent people from getting in that position than pulling them out after the damage is done? But That is probably just as unlikely as an easy fix for those caught up in the mix.

Might I suggest that you attend AlAnon. It is a support group for the family and friends of alcoholics. As some have suggest most alcoholics need to hit bottom before they will see a need to change. Bottom is different for every person so some may come to that realization a lot sooner than others. Some may never hit bottom.

There is a saying in AA that an alcoholic will either hit bottom and change or they will go crazy or die. Being a friend/family of an alcoholic is not fun at all. May God be with you on this journey.

quote Originally posted by MadMark: Might I suggest that you attend AlAnon. It is a support group for the family and friends of alcoholics. As some have suggest most alcoholics need to hit bottom before they will see a need to change. Bottom is different for every person so some may come to that realization a lot sooner than others. Some may never hit bottom. There is a saying in AA that an alcoholic will either hit bottom and change or they will go crazy or die. Being a friend/family of an alcoholic is not fun at all. May God be with you on this journey.

I attend AlAnon meetings 2 times a month. It has been a big help for me.

OK, as promised earlier...

I met this guy a couple years ago (he was a friend of a boss) and learned some amazing things about the human phsyce, habbits, addictions, escapisms, defence mechanisms ect hanging around with him over coffee..
http://www.powerofchoice.or...981/selflessness.pdf

Here are a couple of his websites (some stuff is charity for kids, some is corporate for profit)...BE WARNED Scott may be one heck of an interesting guy to chat with but he IS in it to make a living and sooner or sooner it is gonna come down to him wanting cash if you talk too long, and like any good salesman he has a way of turning a casual chat into a "consultation" and you will never know exactly where it happened. I've seen him do it to millions

http://www.habitmaster.com/
http://www.powerofchoice.org/

I think you made the right choice. At his age the outcome of positive/negative behavior it to far into the future to be considered. Stand firm, but be there to help when he is ready to accept it.