quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: You know what, my wife was one of these people who was able to use this benefit. For the first time in her life, she was unemployed. While the wealthy retreated to their estates, the working people couldn't find a job that paid enough to cover the gas to drive to work. Say what you will, but the republican party was, and still is, out of touch with the middle class. And this was seen in their loss of the election.

Well, you brought it up so I want to analyze this. Because I don't know.

So your wife got some level of payments for 99 months. That money didn't come from no where. Where did that money that your wife got come from?
She got paid money for doing NO productivity. No productivity added to society, or the community. Yet got paid for doing nothing for almost 2 years of her life?

And I really want to understand you here. Your justification for someone being paid at some level for nearly 2 years of their working life while providing no productivity, is that it is ok because it was the first time in her life?

Is your wealthy person retreating comment supposed to imply that the justification is that the money that she got came from the wealthy?


I'm not asking this accusatorily. I'm trying to get straight what you are trying to say here. I honestly do NOT know where the money comes for people to be paid money for almost 2 years for no productivity.
Regarding the comment about the job not paying enough to cover the cost of gas to go to work, I am going to tell you something. If you get hungry enough or desperate enough, you will WALK to the work. If I was THAT desperate, I would go to Target, buy a $100 bike, and RIDE to work at McDonald's for $7/hour, if I didn't feel like walking. And I would work at McDonald's 6 days out of the week for 48 hours per week, and earn $336/week and $1344/ month.

And that would stink. And that would motivate me to find a job I liked better. And when I finally got one I liked better, it would motivate me to do the best for that company so they would be successful so I would have that job I liked better.

Wow... real classy! There isn't much more I can say about your response, except that I think you really meant to say...

"Are there no prisons?"

"And the Union workhouses? Are they still in operation?"

"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?"

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: No productivity added to society, or the community. Yet got paid for doing nothing for almost 2 years of her life? ... I am going to tell you something. If you get hungry enough or desperate enough, you will WALK to the work.

And thus highlights this divide you speak of. Because you and I aren't going to ideologically be able to come together.

As I said, YOU brought it up. What? "Real classy" to dare question our RIGHT to get 99 weeks of unemployment?


You think getting paid NINETY NINE weeks by productivity created by someone else to someone not producing anything is OK. I don't. But it is even WORSE than that. If I don't agree with you that taking pay from someone else to pay someone who isn't working, then you declare me a wealthy, selfish, cold-hearted scrooge.


And HOW DARE I make a suggestion that someone might be able to WALK to a work place??!!??!! How cold hearted and barbaric!! Or ride a bike?? Are you kidding?
You provide a perfect example. I SAID I was willing to reach out regarding unemployment. 26 weeks? 36 weeks?

Nope. 99 weeks or you are a cold-hearted scrooge. You give me that 99 weeks, you wealthy jerks.


So if YOUR mentality truly represents the middle class in the United States in 2012, then I openly and gladly say I am out of touch.


But your behavior highlights the REAL problem. We cannot even DARE to HAVE A DISCUSSION about entitlements anymore, even if they are bankrupting our country.

99 week unemployment benefits. Welfare benefits. Social security. Medicare.

Nope. Can't talk about them at all. Otherwise you are scrooge.


And YOU have the gall to say some would rather sink the ship than reach across.

Difference is that I didn't make a negative personal attack. I tell the forum that my wife benefited from this extension (not even the full 99 weeks) and you tell me how (basically) lazy she is and she should take any job, no matter what. Yet you know nothing of what she has gone through to even find a job, nor do you know our current employment situation in my part of the country. It sure is easy for you to sit back and judge others though...

If you don't like the policy, so be it... complain to your government, run for office, campaign for changes, but you don't have to speak ill of those who need or use the help.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: And thus highlights this divide you speak of. Because you and I aren't going to ideologically be able to come together. As I said, YOU brought it up. What? "Real classy" to dare question our RIGHT to get 99 weeks of unemployment? You think getting paid NINETY NINE weeks by productivity created by someone else to someone not producing anything is OK. I don't. But it is even WORSE than that. If I don't agree with you that taking pay from someone else to pay someone who isn't working, then you declare me a wealthy, selfish, cold-hearted scrooge. And HOW DARE I make a suggestion that someone might be able to WALK to a work place??!!??!! How cold hearted and barbaric!! Or ride a bike?? Are you kidding? You provide a perfect example. I SAID I was willing to reach out regarding unemployment. 26 weeks? 36 weeks? Nope. 99 weeks or you are a cold-hearted scrooge. You give me that 99 weeks, you wealthy jerks. So if YOUR mentality truly represents the middle class in the United States in 2012, then I openly and gladly say I am out of touch. But your behavior highlights the REAL problem. We cannot even DARE to HAVE A DISCUSSION about entitlements anymore, even if they are bankrupting our country. 99 week unemployment benefits. Welfare benefits. Social security. Medicare. Nope. Can't talk about them at all. Otherwise you are scrooge. And YOU have the gall to say some would rather sink the ship than reach across.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: I tell the forum that my wife benefited from this extension (not even the full 99 weeks) and you tell me how (basically) lazy she is and she should take any job, no matter what. Yet you know nothing of what she has gone through to even find a job, nor do you know our current employment situation in my part of the country. It sure is easy for you to sit back and judge others though... If you don't like the policy, so be it... complain to your government, run for office, campaign for changes, but you don't have to speak ill of those who need or use the help.

YOU made your wife the object lesson.

It wasn't a personal attack. As you said, I don't know the situation so I don't automatically assume she is lazy.

I DO know that a 99 week unemployment level decreases the sense of urgency, and decreases the incentive and motivation to get on with the process. That isn't being mean or scrooge-like. It is understanding normal human behavior and motivators. So it is easy to sit back and judge normal human behavior.


You told the forum you benefitted from the extension. What you DIDN'T do is make any acknowledgement of the people that were DISadvantaged by having to PAY for the program.

You seemed to vilify "the wealthy", and perhaps you think the money all came from them. You seem to think you champion middle class values, yet you are willing to stick the middle class with some of the cost involved in a 99 week unemployment plan.


You accuse me of judging your wife and of not knowing her situation, while you call me cold hearted and you know nothing of my situation.

So I'll give you a little glimpse.

I was working 50 hours per week in a pizza place from age 16 including DURING the high school year.

When I was in college, I had a job that placed me in rubber boots mid-ankle deep in pig manure shoveling out a 40 x 40 pen of that.
I was working in an unheated warehouse even when the temperature was below zero.
I took a 30 foot fall while cleaning out the inside of a cone bin.

Even in my "professional" training years, I was working 110 hours a week for $23,000 per year. For 3 years of my life.


So when you are talking about "...take any job...", you are talking to someone who would take any job. And walked to work for a while. And did more than the 48 hours per week I was suggesting.


You are going to get touchy when someone brings up that some other person had to work and get taxed in order to pay for the "benefit" your wife got? Go ahead.

But then you don't get to legitimately lament the lack of "reaching across the aisle" and working together.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: Difference is that I didn't make a negative personal attack. I tell the forum that my wife benefited from this extension (not even the full 99 weeks) and you tell me how (basically) lazy she is and she should take any job, no matter what. Yet you know nothing of what she has gone through to even find a job, nor do you know our current employment situation in my part of the country. It sure is easy for you to sit back and judge others though... If you don't like the policy, so be it... complain to your government, run for office, campaign for changes, but you don't have to speak ill of those who need or use the help.

Don't sweat it man, no one knows your or your wifes situation but YOU, do what's right for you and yours and forget the people that claim to "know".

A lot of people love to generalize and love seeing things in black and white (myself included at times), while in my experience the world is better understood and much more beautiful when seeing the individual cases and the shades of grey. (no reference to the book intended )

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 12-20-2012).]

Well, I sure hope you enjoy the following of which my wife and I have paid for, and which you benefit from.... roads, military, police, fire department, water, food, oil, energy, communication, education, healthcare, retirement, entertainment, internet, air travel, automobiles, property, federal parks... to name a few.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe:

quote Originally posted by newf: Don't sweat it man, no one knows your or your wifes situation but YOU, do what's right for you and yours and forget the people that claim to "know". A lot of people love to generalize and love seeing things in black and white (myself included at times), while in my experience the world is better understood and much more beautiful when seeing the individual cases and the shades of grey. (no reference to the book intended )

When you are talking about political policy you generalize. It has nothing to do with "...a lot of people LOVE to...". It was a policy discussion.

A black and white policy. One can get 99 weeks of unemployment payments. I don't need shades of gray and individual analysis to know that it is way too long to create an incentive for people to have any sense of urgency in the work search process.

I never claimed to "know" his wife's individual situation. Nor do I care in a public policy discussion. That doesn't make one heartless or uncaring, nor rigid.

There is no shade of gray for a taxpayer to have money taken from them that they worked for, and give it to someone not working. That is REAL money.


I'm not faulting her individually for using the system. She didn't make the system. She didn't make the rules.


This was an object lesson of ideologically deciding where you are, and can you reach across and work together to find something workable.


In the United States, we have a president that wants a plan that would take 160 billion more dollars for taxes per year, plans to spend 120 billion of that extra per year, and will only put 40 billion toward the deficit.

Boehner has tried to reach across and say we will let you increase taxes some, but we want to see the reductions in spending.

Obama has said, oh, yeah, well, yeah, we'll maybe do that. But we aren't putting anything in writing.


If THAT is reaching across, then I WANT obstructionism.

I want a reduction in 99 weeks of unemployment. My response? You are a cold hearted scrooge.


Yeah. Don't sweat it. Shades of gray. That's the solution.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: Well, I sure hope you enjoy the following of which my wife and I have paid for, and which you benefit from.... roads, military, police, fire department, water, food, oil, energy, communication, education, healthcare, retirement, entertainment, internet, air travel, automobiles, property, federal parks... to name a few.

That is a horrible blanket statement to make. You and your wife did NOT pay for all of that. You put money into it, and reaped the benefits of it just like I. But, YOU did not pay for this. WE did.

I don't see how this turned into an unemployment benefits thread, but since it is, 99 weeks is entirely too long to live off of OUR backs. I don't care if you are a member here, a dribble on the end of a stick, or the king, 99 weeks of doing nothing to support this nation, and only take from it is a discrace. Lazy fat Americans seem to be the worlds chant. They are correct.

(Not calling your wife lazy, etc., but making a general statement to MY beliefs about the unemployment system.)

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: But out of the list, I like roads, military, police (which is local and you don't pay for), fire department (same), water, federal parks.

Local police get federal grants, as do almost all of these areas, otherwise, they are directly funded by federal tax dollars. You are welcome, Merry Christmas.

99 weeks, yup a long time. At least it is a requirement that these individuals had actually been working to get the benefit.

I have been a hardline type of guy most of my adult life, get a dam job has easily rolled of my lips. Not so much these days, the harsh reality is there are not enough places at the table anymore, not by a long shot.
If we want to argue where our tax dollars are going, where those priorities rank I am all for it but frankly I see little being done by our “person of the year” to get this country productive, in fact I think he has done the opposite. I think people that voted for him are fools at best.

I am sure many here would just as soon see our fellow countrymen fall into the gutters of the homeless but I see continued support as keeping a viable workforce at the ready. If you believe in trickle down you must also believe in trickle up.

For those of you that despise welfare and the plethora of other social programs try looking at what they really are, insurance. The insurance is for you,, especially you older guys. It keeps social and wage structure in place and allows you to keep your food and belongings, maybe even your life. If you think the hoards will not quickly revert to base survival behaviors your delusional. I know I would not just lay down quietly and die.

You did say that you paid for that.

Yes, businesses pay into it, out of our pocket.

How is not working nearly two years benefitting this country? You cannot keep taking, without anything being put in.

I grew up in Michigan. Spent 34 years there. I understand.

By your writings, you believe that it is OK that everyone else pays for that home, car, food of yours? Where does the money come from? 99 weeks is too damn much.
Listen, I am not blaming you for this. I am blaming those that milk the system. Not one or two individuals, but thousands, perhaps millions? I personally know dozens that are, or have bilked the Sate of Michigan's funds.

Why work when you do not have to?

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: You did say that you paid for that. Yes, businesses pay into it, out of our pocket. How is not working nearly two years benefitting this country? You cannot keep taking, without anything being put in. I grew up in Michigan. Spent 34 years there. I understand. By your writings, you believe that it is OK that everyone else pays for that home, car, food of yours? Where does the money come from? 99 weeks is too damn much. Listen, I am not blaming you for this. I am blaming those that milk the system. Not one or two individuals, but thousands, perhaps millions? I personally know dozens that are, or have bilked the Sate of Michigan's funds. Why work when you do not have to?

Of course, there are those who abuse the system. Just as there are wealthy people who abuse the system. It isn't perfect. There are programs which are beneficial and with the economy as bad as it was, something needed to be done. That is reality.

Again, I didn't say we paid for it all.... Just like Frontal didn't pay for the unemployment for everyone in the US. As for the federal government paying for this and that... it isn't about what I believe or not believe in. Frontal wants us to believe that unemployment extensions are for the lazy, when in fact that he (and the rest of us) benefit from government spending. So, complain as he may, he also gets entitlements, just indirectly. Frankly, unemployment insurance helped saved many families. These people were able to keep their homes, their families and then find a job that allows them to continue to pay taxes and be a protective member of society (as Frontal would say). These people just didn't take the money and buy drugs or take a cruise, much of that money was used to pay for basic necessities. Of course, not everyone did the right thing, and they abuse the system, but that is not the vast majority. Also, let's be clear, we are talking unemployment insurance, not welfare. It is not as easy to get unemployment benefits, the longer you are unemployed. Maybe some are confusing the two?

Of all the programs out there, it is odd that unemployment is being singled out, when it is a lifeline, unlike subsides to oil companies, or money dumped into the middle east.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: ...

Well said.

I just reread my post, and it comes off as harsh towards you. I apologize. It was a general statement, and NOT meant solely for you.

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: Well said. I just reread my post, and it comes off as harsh towards you. I apologize. It was a general statement, and NOT meant solely for you.

Thanks, I understand... I was just trying to express a positive result of the extension and that seems to have gotten lost in all of this.

[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 12-20-2012).]

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: You really believe that?

Absolutely. Anyone offering me something for free--paid for with OPM--will immediately raise a red flag when it comes to who I consider best for the nation, county, or state. I don't care if it Santa Bush or Obama Claus--they are not going to be my first choice on that basis.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: 99 weeks, yup a long time. At least it is a requirement that these individuals had actually been working to get the benefit. I have been a hardline type of guy most of my adult life, get a dam job has easily rolled of my lips. Not so much these days, the harsh reality is there are not enough places at the table anymore, not by a long shot. If we want to argue where our tax dollars are going, where those priorities rank I am all for it but frankly I see little being done by our “person of the year” to get this country productive, in fact I think he has done the opposite. I think people that voted for him are fools at best. I am sure many here would just as soon see our fellow countrymen fall into the gutters of the homeless but I see continued support as keeping a viable workforce at the ready. If you believe in trickle down you must also believe in trickle up. For those of you that despise welfare and the plethora of other social programs try looking at what they really are, insurance. The insurance is for you,, especially you older guys. It keeps social and wage structure in place and allows you to keep your food and belongings, maybe even your life. If you think the hoards will not quickly revert to base survival behaviors your delusional. I know I would not just lay down quietly and die.

Red, sometimes, just sometimes, this ray of absolute brilliance beams hardcore from you like the lid being removed from The Ark Of The Covenant.
At those times, I would follow you through the gates of hell.

Other times, not so much.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: Frontal wants us to believe that unemployment extensions are for the lazy, when in fact that he (and the rest of us) benefit from government spending.

Not exactly. As I stated specifically, a 99 week time frame doesn't provide an incentive for NORMAL, not lazy, people to have the sense of urgency to get a job as quickly as possible.

Of course there are people that will abuse the system.

It would be my very confident guess that the percentage of people that abuse the system that use it 99 weeks versus those on it, say, 26 weeks, is much higher. But a study would have to be done to confirm that.
Regarding benefitting from government spending, here is my very pointed statement of a general principle of life.

I do not WANT to benefit from something I have not worked for and earned. So while, yes, I have benefited from government spending, I can DOUBLE ASSURE YOU that I have paid in WAY more than I have received from the government.