quote PHOENIX — A billionaire business owner who died along with four others in a 2010 helicopter crash allowed his 5-year-old daughter to sit on his lap in the co-pilot's seat where she apparently kicked the flight controls and caused the accident, according to federal investigators. The National Transportation Safety Board reviewed the crash that killed Services Group of America founder and owner Thomas J. Stewart, 64, for nearly three years before releasing its final probable cause report this week. Stewart's young daughter, wife, brother-in-law and company pilot also were killed in the crash on Valentine's Day 2010. The NTSB found that Stewart allowed his daughter, Sydney, to sit on his lap on a trip from his northern Arizona ranch to his home in Scottsdale, the Phoenix suburb where SGA is headquartered. It was "highly likely" that the child suddenly pushed down with her foot on the copter's controls, according to the Nov. 7 report. Either Stewart or his pilot then quickly pulled up on the controls, causing the helicopter's main blades to bend and strike the aircraft's tail, the report said. The helicopter then plunged out of control into a dry stream bed in the north Phoenix community of Cave Creek, killing all aboard instantly, according to investigators. Madena Stewart, 40, her brother, Malang Abudula, 38, and company pilot Rick Morton, 63, were also killed in the crash. The report's conclusion was immediately challenged by the lawyer for the pilot's family, who has blamed a faulty rotor blade for the crash, and by Stewart's company. "That's their interpretation, and it does not comport with what our experienced investigators believe happened," said Gary C. Robb, a Kansas City, Mo., attorney who specializes in aviation accidents. Robb has sued Eurocopter and others involved in repairing one of the helicopter's blades after a previous mishap. He said he believes the repair was faulty and the blade came apart in flight, causing the crash. The NTSB found no evidence of that. It concluded that the repaired blade hit the tail rotor drive shaft and broke. Eurocopter helped the NTSB investigate the crash and ran simulations that concluded that only a rapid down and then up movement on a control called a "collective" could have caused the accident. "Unfortunately, we believe that Eurocopter had some input into that report, as Eurocopter conducted its own evaluation to exonerate itself," Robb said in an interview with The Associated Press on Friday. The NTSB laid some blame on the pilot for not controlling his cockpit. For example, it found that Stewart liked to fly the craft even though he wasn't licensed for helicopters. The report faulted Morton for allowing such a violation. William Waldock, who teaches air crash investigation at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Prescott, Ariz., reviewed the NTSB report and said there is no direct evidence that the child kicked the controls. "A sudden up and down" movement of the controls would have led to such an accident, Waldock said. But he added that he didn't see "any direct evidence that factually verifies" that the girl kicked the controls. SGA issued a statement saying the NTSB investigated the crash with Eurocopter but without outside investigators. "Despite this length of time, there are many questions that remain unanswered, not the least of which is that the NTSB's conclusion is at odds with every single eyewitness," it said. Also, the statement said, "the conclusion is wholly inconsistent with the way Rick Morton commanded the helicopter and the respect Tom Stewart gave his pilots in the cockpit." The company said now that the report is public, independent experts will have access to the evidence and "will be able to conduct a more thorough investigation into the cause of the crash. Because the matter is in litigation, the company cannot comment further." NTSB reports are approved by the agency's board. No one was available to comment on the findings at American Eurocopter's Texas headquarters Saturday. Stewart joined his father's Seattle-based port support business in the late 1960s and expanded it into insurance and food distribution, fruit packing and retailing. After spinning off some subsidiaries, he moved the company to Arizona in 2006. It remains privately held.

http://www.nydailynews.com/...sb-article-1.1200227

Yes although very rare. Eurocopter makes some very nice helicopters so I cannot see a faulty repair contributing to the accident. They wouldn't make a half-assed repair and tarnish their name.
This is a safety update for Robinson helicopters. This tells how deadly a similar condition is:

[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 12-16-2012).]

Interesting good read!

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86 Fiero GTX project now tearing up the street, My build thread! 3800sc, interior, wheels, suspension and more! https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089483.html

judging from the article, they did not cut off the tail, but damaged a rotor blade. from videos i've seen, there seems to be some flex in the blades, apparently they can flex enough to strike the tail boom in violent maneuvers.

I didn't read the entire article but, yes is the answer. All helicopter blades have the ability to flex built into them. It takes a fairly violent maneuver to accomplish such an event but, it is possible. While on an exercise at Ft Hood Texas there was an incident where an AH-1 Cobra made an emergency landing from low level flight. according to reports, they landed hard but both crew members would have survived the crash except the hard landing and force of the impact caused the pilot to either allow or with his imputs tilt the rotor forward at the moment of impact, that combined with the downward force exerted on the airframe of the impact caused the rotor blades to flex enough that at least one blade sliced through the canopy of the green house (crew compartment) and decapitated the person in the gunner's/co-pilot's seat.

Tail boom impacts have been known to occur but, as in the afore mentioned crash, it takes a significant set of circumstances to "normally" make this happen.

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Ron
A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.
So, what do ya think, are we there yet?

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 12-16-2012).]

If a CH-53 can do this to its refuel boom then it can happen to the tail boom .



Rapid control movements that are beyond the capability of the aircraft can cause bad things to happen.

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ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK
12.3 is faster than a 13.2

I've heard of the big heavy MI24 Hind Russian choppers occasionally knocking out their own tail rotors in hard maneuvers.

Low G's and helicopters, this is nothing new.

I've tried to hold off....

Ron is our resident expert...some dude here flies R22's...I've been in a Jet Ranger, maybee once or twice a Sikorsky...

There is a billion ways one of them things can hurt ya.....Crawling into a C337, even an FL80 Cunnuck (80hp, tube and rag)...is NOT like crawling into a turbine helicopter....

Hell, in a plane at least I can chop throttles, slow down and drop flaps to get it down, glide it in.......Helicopters dont give ya that option....Ya "autorotate" which means dropping out of the sky at 3,000 feet per minute straight down and within 20 feet of the ground, pull up on the collective and hope like hell the rotor pitch catches enough air to stop ya from being a fireball.....

No, thanks....give me something that goes on and off a runway in a straight line.

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 12-16-2012).]

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: I've tried to hold off.... Ron is our resident expert...some dude here flies R22's...I've been in a Jet Ranger, maybee once or twice a Sikorsky... There is a billion ways one of them things can hurt ya.....Crawling into a C337, even an FL80 Cunnuck (80hp, tube and rag)...is NOT like crawling into a turbine helicopter.... Hell, in a plane at least I can chop throttles, slow down and drop flaps to get it down, glide it in.......Helicopters dont give ya that option....Ya "autorotate" which means dropping out of the sky at 3,000 feet per minute straight down and within 20 feet of the ground, pull up on the collective and hope like hell the rotor pitch catches enough air to stop ya from being a fireball..... No, thanks....give me something that goes on and off a runway in a straight line.

Im TOTALLY with you on that. Ive rarely heard of a helicopter crash that was suvivable. I always kid about helicopters autorotating...what I call screwing themself into the ground. My Cessna can glide 10 miles or more depending on altitude with engine shut off completely. I once got my F4 back to base with a blown up engine, but they glide like rocks without any. When I managed a local airport, I had a 222 Jetranger make an emergency landing. A small piece of plastic tape on the rotor tip came loose and was vibrating the whole aircraft to pieces. When he landed, I went out to get him and his passengers and 1/2 of the panel equipment had slid out onto the floor. We pulled off the tape and took it off all the other blades and he did a runup with no problems and loaded back up and took off.

A friend of mine had a "hard Landing" in an R22 on dirt. He was not well trained on full down auto's, and split the skids on dirt. The rotor dipped (which is a long way to drop on a Robinson) and chopped the tail off, just past the anti-collision light.
Most rotor systems are soft-in-plane (very few are rigid-in-plane), and will dip quite a bit. You will see people stooped over when approaching a running helicopter for this reason. Even a gust of wind can cause a rotor to dip.

I have been in a couple Low-G Pushovers while flying Robinson's (new students), and it will scare you. SN-11 is about the rotor head (part that the rotor blades bolt to) making contact with the rotor mast drive line (Main Rotor Drive Shaft). The end result of this is the rotor separating from the air-frame, not rotor contact with tail/air-frame.

-Dave

Adding: I remember this crash. My wife worked for ERAU, Prescott during the time of this crash. I was to be hired to teach the Commercial Helicopter ground class during this time frame as well.

[This message has been edited by IFLYR22 (edited 12-16-2012).]

What it really comes down to is experience with the machine. I'm not a fixed winged pilot but have significant time in several different military helicopters. Even back when I was a Scout Pilot, I still did auto rotations to the ground. As a Test Pilot, it was something that one needed to stay proficient in. Just like the fixed wing pilots feel safe gliding to their landing strip, I feel safe auto rotating (which is actually a glide) to my selected spot. In the last three years I was test flying, I had 8 engine failures. BTW, these were all in single engine aircraft. Never bent a skid and every A/C flew again when it's new engine was installed. Engine failures never scared me, hydraulics failures scared the crap out of me.

Remind me sometime to tell you about test flying an AH-1 Cobra with a three system hydraulic failure. We burnt the skids off that bird before we actually got out of that cockpit. But, we fixed it and it flew again. Helicopters are very useful in certain conditions and for certain missions, they fill a niche that fixed winged A/C can't fill efficently. But, they could never replace fixed wing for the longer distance flights. Probably the best attempt to do so was the Osprey the Marines had. I almost changed services to get my hands on one of them but, they had some issues at first and the entire fleet was grounded so, that decision never had to be made. Now, I'm too old, to fat and blind with some bad knees but, I still go back if they'd let me ride the Osprey.

Edited: Boonie, just had to mention that, helicopters are flown by PILOTS, not drivers.

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Ron
A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.
So, what do ya think, are we there yet?

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 12-16-2012).]

"Helicopters don't fly they beat the air into submission."

quote Originally posted by htexans1: "Helicopters don't fly they beat the air into submission."

Well, there may be some truth in that but, my good friend JStricker says that Helicopters don't fly, they're so ugly the ground repells them. This is truly a false statement, John has no idea what real beauty is, OBVIOUSLY.

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Ron
A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.
So, what do ya think, are we there yet?

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: Ron is our resident expert...some dude here flies R22's........ [[SNIP]] No, thanks....give me something that goes on and off a runway in a straight line.

quote by blackrams: Well, let's be honest here, IFLYR22's is current and an instructor pilot, give credit where credit is due, he's much more up on what's flying now than I am. But, I will say that I never met an Instructor Pilot I didn't like, I also never met one I could match for skill and to be honest, met very few that had anywhere near as many actual emergencies as I had but then, that's life of a MTP. As I was frequently told, it takes a "special" person to go out try to reproduce flight in what he knows is a broke dick A/C. Yeah, we think we're special, just not sure if that means Special Olympics or Special Ed. As far as MEM's desire for that runway with that nice straight line approach and landing, that's all fine if you have that option, heck we even like emergency equipment and rescue personel available and on site but, that ain't always an option. I can't tell you how many times I've set down in a field and had to wait for someone to bring out what was needed to fix the A/C so I could fly it back out. I'll admit that's a possibility with fixed winged A/C but much more likely with rotor winged. With that, I'll let you guys that like restricting your options go have fun, I like keeping as many options open as possible. ------------------ Ron A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. So, what do ya think, are we there yet?

If there was a nice straight runway every block, there wouldn't be so many fixed wing crashes out in the boondocks. Ya hear about ememrgency landings on highways simply because they are so rare. In reality, most times it really isn't much of an option when the crap hits the fan.

I could be mistaken,but I believe a CH53 once sliced it's own pilothouse off too.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 12-17-2012).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: If there was a nice straight runway every block, there wouldn't be so many fixed wing crashes out in the boondocks. Ya hear about ememrgency landings on highways simply because they are so rare. In reality, most times it really isn't much of an option when the crap hits the fan. I could be mistaken,but I believe a CH53 once sliced it's own pilothouse off too.

We had an AH-64D almost take out it's gunner seat on a hard landing. The blade took the windscreen off, but came shy of the pilot/gunner by a few inches.

-Dave

quote Originally posted by IFLYR22: Ha ha ha... I like the idea of being able to see my point of impact at all times and not waiting for it to come over the horizon to see it!

I was taught that the point on the ground that you see that isn't moving is where you'll end up.

quote Originally posted by FIEROPHREK:

Hard choice: Do nothing and sever the hose and drogue with your rotor, or pitch up rapidly and sever your own refueling probe.

Ron: Does it appear that he was trying to chase the drogue with pitch (my guess), or did he let the drogue pitch him down?

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 12-18-2012).]

"Can You Bend Your Rotor Enough To Cut Your Own Tail Off?"
is this some kind of personal question?
"rotor"? is that what you call it?
why would you want to bend it that far?
helicopter pilots have tails?

i can't believe i'm the first to post this. 2 days. i thought this was a more imaginative bunch.

[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 12-18-2012).]

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Well, let's be honest here, IFLYR22's is current and an instructor pilot, give credit where credit is due, he's much more up on what's flying now than I am. But, I will say that I never met an Instructor Pilot I didn't like, I also never met one I could match for skill and to be honest, met very few that had anywhere near as many actual emergencies as I had but then, that's life of a MTP. As I was frequently told, it takes a "special" person to go out try to reproduce flight in what he knows is a broke dick A/C. Yeah, we think we're special, just noit sure if that means Special Olympics or Special Ed. As far as MEM's desire for that runway with that nice straight line approach and landing, that's all fine if you have that option, heck we even like emergency equipment and rescue personel available and on site but, that ain't always an option. I can't tell you how many times I've set down in a field and had to wait for someone to bring out what was needed to fix the A/C so I could fly it back out. I'll admit that's a possibility with fixed winged A/C but much more likely with rotor winged. With that, I'll let you guys that like restricting your options go have fun, I like keeping as many options open as possible.

I will gladly bow to your experience, sir.

-Dave

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Hard choice: Do nothing and sever the hose and drogue with your rotor, or pitch up rapidly and sever your own refueling probe. Ron: Does it appear that he was trying to chase the drogue with pitch (my guess), or did he let the drogue pitch him down?

Marvin,
I'm the wrong guy to answer that question in all honesty. The Army doesn't do things like aerial refueling. Well, I can't say what TF161 does, they do all kinds of special things but I was never assigned to that unit so, anything I would suggest would be speculation. My guess is.......................... Nope, not even gonna guess. But, aerodynamics is a touchy subject, try flying backwards up to speed until you exceed ground effect and achieve translational lift. That used to be a maintenance test flight maneuver. Always scared the crap out of me. Was always worried that a tail boom strike. Not to mention that the pilot had to depend on someone else's eyes to advise him what was back there.
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Ron
A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.
So, what do ya think, are we there yet?

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 12-19-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Hard choice: Do nothing and sever the hose and drogue with your rotor, or pitch up rapidly and sever your own refueling probe. Ron: Does it appear that he was trying to chase the drogue with pitch (my guess), or did he let the drogue pitch him down?

Marvin he was chasing the drouge. The pilot pulled the cyclic to the rear to fast ,popping the nose of the aircraft up. Once the probe climbed to high he over corrected and tried to drop the nose quick. The rotor disc reacted instantly but the fuesalage and boom was on the way up still. The probe is normally retracted in normal flight. It is clear of the rotordisc so quick control movements can be made. Once you extend the boom out past the disc for refueling it comes withing a few feet of the blades. The blades will flap (moveup) and droop (move up) around 10 feet.

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ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK
12.3 is faster than a 13.2