... if something must be subsidized, like electric cars, that means, by definition, they aren't financially viable (can't stand on their own).
The validity of your argument depends solely on the word "must." There are plenty of subsidies in the tax code in the form of credits and deductions that are not "must" issues ... things like the home mortgage interest deduction, or the oil depletion allowance, or the various business investment tax credits, or a thousand other obscure business credits and deductions. Certainly people would continue to buy homes if there were no mortgage interest deduction. and businesses would continue to buy equipment and materials as needed. The tax code has been used since the founding of our republic to help implement both economic and social policy.
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Originally posted by spark1:
The electric car is the next big thing and has been since Thomas Edison.
1917 Detroit Electric: Except for the tires and batteries, this car is still 100% original ... even the upholstery. And from the underside of the fender you can see that it's still driven occasionally; I know the owner and have ridden it.
Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: The validity of your argument depends solely on the word "must." There are plenty of subsidies in the tax code in the form of credits and deductions that are not "must" issues ... things like the home mortgage interest deduction, or the oil depletion allowance, or the various business investment tax credits, or a thousand other obscure business credits and deductions. Certainly people would continue to buy homes if there were no mortgage interest deduction. and businesses would continue to buy equipment and materials as needed. The tax code has been used since the founding of our republic to help implement both economic and social policy.
But the question remains - would the Chevy Volt be able to stand on its own without the tax credit? Homes certainly would, but the Volt? Heck, the whole of GM is around because of a MASSIVE government subsidy. Not a "tax credit" or "deduction", but actually money taken from taxpayers and given to the company.
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04:11 PM
spark1 Member
Posts: 11159 From: Benton County, OR Registered: Dec 2002
But the question remains - would the Chevy Volt be able to stand on its own without the tax credit? Homes certainly would, but the Volt? Heck, the whole of GM is around because of a MASSIVE government subsidy. Not a "tax credit" or "deduction", but actually money taken from taxpayers and given to the company.
So far the market has said "no." Toyota can't build Priuses fast enough while GM shuts down Volt production for weeks at a time to "match output to market demand." I like the idea of the Volt but even with the subsidies, it's not much competition for the Prius.
If I were in the market for a new car, I'd be looking at the Ford Fusion Hybrid before I would the Volt, but I do admit that has as much to do with how GM's bankruptcy was co-opted as it does the cars themselves. Besides, the Fusion is a much better looking car.
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08:31 PM
spark1 Member
Posts: 11159 From: Benton County, OR Registered: Dec 2002
I actually think the Volt could potentially be a collector-car. Not because of it's performance or anything. I think GM put a lot of effort into this car, but I think their "next" version or type of car like this will be the one that sells well. I think the Volt, while made some inroads, will not be the one that's successful. I think it'll end up being like the Pontiac Aztek, but with a bit more uniqueness to it. I think in 30 years, they'll probably be pretty rare... just guessing.
But then again, I'd also like to think that the Crown Victoria in 40 years will be what the Shoe-Box Chevy is to people today. heh...
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09:03 PM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27106 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Originally posted by Formula88: So far the market has said "no." Toyota can't build Priuses fast enough while GM shuts down Volt production for weeks at a time to "match output to market demand." I like the idea of the Volt but even with the subsidies, it's not much competition for the Prius.
Tell me about it...you can't spit out the window on a California freeway without hitting a Prius.
I liked the idea of the Volt as well. American company, competing with the Prius. And it was GM...until...
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If I were in the market for a new car, I'd be looking at the Ford Fusion Hybrid before I would the Volt, but I do admit that has as much to do with how GM's bankruptcy was co-opted as it does the cars themselves. Besides, the Fusion is a much better looking car.
...the GM bailout. I won't buy a GM car now.
I have been in the market for a newer car (until the election). I test drove a Ford Focus. I liked it well enough. I don't think they offer it in hybrid that I can see, and I would want the gas mileage differential between it and my 5 speed GT to make up for the monthly payment, or at least a majority of it. The Focus didn't. The Fusion is more car than I need for my job. The Prius *would* make financial sense, but I REALLY don't want to buy a foreign car.
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09:08 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
I have been in the market for a newer car (until the election). I test drove a Ford Focus. I liked it well enough. I don't think they offer it in hybrid that I can see, and I would want the gas mileage differential between it and my 5 speed GT to make up for the monthly payment, or at least a majority of it. The Focus didn't. The Fusion is more car than I need for my job. The Prius *would* make financial sense, but I REALLY don't want to buy a foreign car.
The Focus is either gas only or electric only. http://www.ford.com/cars/focus/trim/electric/ Neat addition for the electric Focus - should you run out of juice, they offer 24 roadside assistance to tow you to the nearest dealer or your home, if it's within 35 miles. If you want a hybrid, you'd need to go with the Fusion.
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09:36 PM
Dec 2nd, 2012
htexans1 Member
Posts: 9115 From: Clear Lake City/Houston TX Registered: Sep 2001
... I test drove a Ford Focus. I liked it well enough. I don't think they offer it in hybrid that I can see, and I would want the gas mileage differential between it and my 5 speed GT to make up for the monthly payment, or at least a majority of it. The Focus didn't. The Fusion is more car than I need for my job. The Prius *would* make financial sense, but I REALLY don't want to buy a foreign car.
I have been in the market for a newer car (until the election). I test drove a Ford Focus. I liked it well enough. I don't think they offer it in hybrid that I can see, and I would want the gas mileage differential between it and my 5 speed GT to make up for the monthly payment, or at least a majority of it. The Focus didn't. The Fusion is more car than I need for my job. The Prius *would* make financial sense, but I REALLY don't want to buy a foreign car.
We test-drove a Focus and I quite surprised/impressed with it. If I hadn't wanted a convertible so badly, I'd probably have a Focus ST in my driveway instead of my Sky. I didn't care much for the old Fusion (made in Mexico), but I'd have definitely considered the 2013 (Made in USA).
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09:49 AM
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carnut122 Member
Posts: 9122 From: Waleska, GA, USA Registered: Jan 2004
Here's what the a recent issue of Motor trend says:
"...I started out by saying this comparison is really a commentary on us. Our brains are divided into two halves: the right side is dreamy and intuitive, the left is logical and calculating. And these two cars mightily strain the connections between them. The Prius Plug-In is far and away the more rational choice. Toyota has thought this through, and, for where we presently are in terms of battery performance and cost, the automaker is right. It doesn't really require Level 2 charging (wall power is fine), its cost premium is not unreasonable, and it's fabulously efficient. Bingo. Left-brain winner. So what's the problem with those 53 percent? The Volt, despite its sales-crippling price (and lesser faults such as its twin, tiny rear seats), is the plug-in hybrid that appeals to our dreams. Great EV range. An EV mode without engine interruptions. That rush of acceleration...
1st Place: Chevrolet Volt The good news: It's selling better than the Corvette! But the Volt wins here for its technical supremacy and alluring driving qualities -- though not its payback period. 2012 Toyota Prius Plug In Side In Motion
2nd Place: Toyota Prius Plug-In If you're not impractical enough to buy a Volt, here's your plug-in hybrid. Its smaller battery means charging is quicker (and you don't need a home charger), but you also have to do it more frequently...."
I dont know if Id be waiting for a 'next' generation Volt. Unprofitable cars seem to have a habit of disappearing after their initial flop. I wouldnt put too much into in being ranked #1. They sold thousands of Yugos too. Just because someone says something is #1 dont make it so. Every new TV show touts itself as the 'best' new show of the season and new movie is a 'this years blockbuster'. Every car ad I see on tv says that car is the best on the market. ie/ Ford has the number one pickup, Chevy has the worlds best pickup, Dodge has the best pickup made....they all cant be #1.
I thought Ford had some Hybrids?
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10:51 AM
htexans1 Member
Posts: 9115 From: Clear Lake City/Houston TX Registered: Sep 2001
So far the market has said "no." Toyota can't build Priuses fast enough while GM shuts down Volt production for weeks at a time to "match output to market demand."
I can't find November sales data but October sales were 2,961, or ~35,000 annual sales rate. For a "niche" vehicle it seems to be selling just fine - it was never intended to compete with the Prius in volume.
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rogergarrison: Unprofitable cars seem to have a habit of disappearing after their initial flop.
GM would have to be pretty stupid to pull the plug on such an ambitious program after the first model...but they've surprised me before. It could be the next Fiero
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11:12 AM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
GM would have to be pretty stupid to pull the plug on such an ambitious program after the first model...but they've surprised me before. It could be the next Fiero
Yeah, that was a great car!
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11:21 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
I can't find November sales data but October sales were 2,961, or ~35,000 annual sales rate. For a "niche" vehicle it seems to be selling just fine - it was never intended to compete with the Prius in volume.
I don't recall GM advertising the new Volt that was NOT intended to compete with the Prius. I guess the car is an unqualified success, then. FYI, 2012 sales to date are 20,828. It's telling that the only month you could find data for was the highest recent sales month. I'm sure that's just a coincidence. June - 1760 July - 1849 Aug - 2831 Sept - 2851 Oct - 2961 Nov - 1519
I don't recall GM advertising the new Volt that was NOT intended to compete with the Prius. I guess the car is an unqualified success, then. FYI, 2012 sales to date are 20,828. It's telling that the only month you could find data for was the highest recent sales month. I'm sure that's just a coincidence. June - 1760 July - 1849 Aug - 2831 Sept - 2851 Oct - 2961 Nov - 1519
Looks like the yearly average would be closer to 28,000 useing these sales numbers.
As a side, How many of the Volts have been sold to government agencies?
According to GM, only 130 Volts have been sold to the government during 2012, and about 100 were sold to fleets in August. I don't have other monthly data for fleets.
[This message has been edited by masospaghetti (edited 12-03-2012).]
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02:34 PM
masospaghetti Member
Posts: 2477 From: Charlotte, NC USA Registered: Dec 2009
I don't recall GM advertising the new Volt that was NOT intended to compete with the Prius. I guess the car is an unqualified success, then. FYI, 2012 sales to date are 20,828. It's telling that the only month you could find data for was the highest recent sales month. I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
The Volt wasn't made to compete with the Prius on sales volume - obviously the two are technological competitors. They fill different price brackets so volume is naturally going to be different. Notice how I said "I can't find November sales data" - I'm glad you found it.
The Volt competes more directly with the Prius plug-in, which it outsells easily.
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The Volt has definitely been more successful than the Nissan Leaf, but the Leaf was never intended to compete with the Volt, right?
I'd more say the Leaf is an inferior design - and hideous - and its sales reflect that.
[This message has been edited by masospaghetti (edited 12-03-2012).]
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