quote Originally posted by topcat: You would not happen to be an Industrial Engineer would you? One of the IEs that works for me will use this sort of logic when we are planning a new build. I am not buying new as a need to save money on gas or over the lifetime of a car. I simply want a new car. I like the idea of not having to stop to gas up every week, so this Volt thingy sounds appealing. My simplistic approach looks like this: 120.00 on gas each month 45 bucks on electricity each month net equals an 85 dollar savings each month, assuming that I do not have to use gas at all for the month.

No, I'm not an IE, but I can add.

Both of the cars I listed are new. So if you buy one new and finance it at 0% interest for 5 years your payments are $525 for the Volt (after $7500 tax credit), and $333 for the Cruze Eco.
So you're saving $85 in fuel costs each month and spending an extra $191 per month on your car payment. That's $106/mo more to drive the Volt than the Cruze Eco. That is, if you get free financing.

If you just want one so you don't have to buy gas - cool. More power too ya. Just don't fool yourself into thinking you're going to save any money. It's not cheaper. The Volt costs too much compared to other vehicles to make it economically competitive.

Now, if you're going to pay cash for the car, cool, you can start saving that $85 a month right away. Personally, I'd rather have the $12,500 in the bank than an extra $85 per month.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Another with no first hand experience, but I'd like to add my .02 cents. Regardless of how you are doing it, you will still have to pay for the energy you use. You can pay 120 a month in fuel, or 60 in fuel and 60 in electric, or 120 in electric. Either way you are going to pay. Raising your car payment a hundred a month also needs to be added in to this equation. Brad

I've actually done a little homework. My 40 dollar estimate for electric is on the high side. It will actually cost between 25 - 40 bucks, depending on the state of the battery pack before charging. My current commute will mean that I would not use any gas at all during the week. I'd probably use approx 2 gallons on weekends - and that is on the high side because when we go out as a family we typically use my wife's car which is more roomy, luxurious, and more comfortable.

I guess I need to level set to put all those that come into the thread with the "you will not save" responses at ease. I think I said at the beginning of the thread, "I REALLY like the prospect of cutting my gasoline bill by going electric." I CAN afford to pay for gas, I simply do not like stopping to fill up and since I am in the market for a new car, why not go for one that does not use gas - or as much gas?

There are a few replies that add value to the original question, but as already noted, not many.

quote Originally posted by topcat: I've actually done a little homework. My 40 dollar estimate for electric is on the high side. It will actually cost between 25 - 40 bucks, depending on the state of the battery pack before charging. My current commute will mean that I would not use any gas at all during the week. I'd probably use approx 2 gallons on weekends - and that is on the high side because when we go out as a family we typically use my wife's car which is more roomy, luxurious, and more comfortable. I guess I need to level set to put all those that come into the thread with the "you will not save" responses at ease. I think I said at the beginning of the thread, "I REALLY like the prospect of cutting my gasoline bill by going electric." I CAN afford to pay for gas, I simply do not like stopping to fill up and since I am in the market for a new car, why not go for one that does not use gas - or as much gas? There are a few replies that add value to the original question, but as already noted, not many.

Well I apologize for not adding value.

Brad

quote Originally posted by topcat: I've actually done a little homework. My 40 dollar estimate for electric is on the high side. It will actually cost between 25 - 40 bucks, depending on the state of the battery pack before charging. My current commute will mean that I would not use any gas at all during the week. I'd probably use approx 2 gallons on weekends - and that is on the high side because when we go out as a family we typically use my wife's car which is more roomy, luxurious, and more comfortable. I guess I need to level set to put all those that come into the thread with the "you will not save" responses at ease. I think I said at the beginning of the thread, "I REALLY like the prospect of cutting my gasoline bill by going electric." I CAN afford to pay for gas, I simply do not like stopping to fill up and since I am in the market for a new car, why not go for one that does not use gas - or as much gas? There are a few replies that add value to the original question, but as already noted, not many.

If there is anything to it. I don't think there is a single PFF member that has a Volt. I could be wrong and there might be one or two, but I'll be surprised if they chime in.

Since you justify financing cars in the first place, your judgement for making a purchasing decision isn't based on any savings to your pocket book, because only financially illiterate people finance cars.

Just go and get it and be done with it and smug it around and feel good about yourself. That's what you really want to do. Nobody is really going to care.

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 06-24-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Wichita: , because only financially illiterate people finance cars.

really.. that has to me the dumbest thing I've ever heard..
I financed my HHR 0.0% for 72 months..
car before that 0.9% for 72 months.. my 26k made 15% while I payed 0.9%

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Just for interest sake...this is NICE!! Bit too pricey for you TC, I guess...but what a car Base model price 22,700 pounds sterling.

Seriously nice. 60+mpg US and only $36,000.

quote Originally posted by topcat: I guess I need to level set to put all those that come into the thread with the "you will not save" responses at ease. I think I said at the beginning of the thread, "I REALLY like the prospect of cutting my gasoline bill by going electric." I CAN afford to pay for gas, I simply do not like stopping to fill up and since I am in the market for a new car, why not go for one that does not use gas - or as much gas?

Well, the reason I posted the numbers I did was because your talk about saving on gas and how much you'd save each month on gas made me think saving money was a prime motivator. If you just don't want to buy gas and are willing to pay a premium for that, go for it. There are many reasons someone might want to buy an alternative fuel vehicle that have nothing to do with saving money.

If I was in the market for a new car, sure, I'd be looking at gas mileage. The reason I compared the Cruze Eco and Volt is because they are essentially the same car. Most people have a specific price range they're looking at and compare features and mileage within that budget. For the $39000 a Volt will cost - you've got options. I'd explore everything that's available in that price range before making a decision. There are other hybrids, as well as diesels. An Audi A3 TDI stickers for about $30,000 and gets 30 city / 42 highway. You can go nearly 450 miles on 1 tank.
Or the 2012 Ford Fusion Hybrid for $29000 that is rated at 41 city / 36 highway. So for the same price or less than a Volt, you have a myriad of choices.

You also might want to check out the 2013 Ford Fusion.

It's going to have Eco Boost gas engine options, plus both a regular hybrid and plug-in hybrid option.
They'll be out this Fall.
http://www.ford.com/cars/fusion/2013/

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Nice. I wish we could get more Euro-Diesels here, but Americans, in general, are still reluctant to embrace diesels.

after the Olds diesel of the 70s is there
any wonder why? lol

quote Originally posted by htexans1: after the Olds diesel of the 70s is there any wonder why? lol

I guess we're going to have to wait for everyone who remembers those to die.
That was over 33 years ago, so they've got to be in their 50's by now. I guess we've got another 30 or so years to wait for good diesels.

if it hasn't been covered, you will want to price out the quick charging station, as that will run you a few thousand also. Sure, you can charge it overnight with 110V, but that is not really practical.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: if it hasn't been covered, you will want to price out the quick charging station, as that will run you a few thousand also. Sure, you can charge it overnight with 110V, but that is not really practical.

Wouldn't a 208V circuit be faster and more efficient? Is one offered?


Also, here's a link to a U.S. made all-electric option: http://www.arcimoto.com/
Definitely unconventional, but if it's a 2nd/commuter car, that could be ideal. I think they look pretty cool, too.
It is nowhere near as practical as a Volt as far as being a conventional car goes, it's another option if it fits your needs/desires.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 06-25-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: No, I'm not an IE, but I can add. Both of the cars I listed are new. So if you buy one new and finance it at 0% interest for 5 years your payments are $525 for the Volt (after $7500 tax credit), and $333 for the Cruze Eco. So you're saving $85 in fuel costs each month and spending an extra $191 per month on your car payment. That's $106/mo more to drive the Volt than the Cruze Eco. That is, if you get free financing. If you just want one so you don't have to buy gas - cool. More power too ya. Just don't fool yourself into thinking you're going to save any money. It's not cheaper. The Volt costs too much compared to other vehicles to make it economically competitive. Now, if you're going to pay cash for the car, cool, you can start saving that $85 a month right away. Personally, I'd rather have the $12,500 in the bank than an extra $85 per month.

But if no batteries die, he gets a free charging station, and he actually gets the savings he projected, he only needs to keep the car for 11.24 years for it to finally break even with the Cruze Eco.

topcat, with all projections heavily skewed positively for you, you still have to keep the car for quite awhile before it breaks even. If you're itching for a new car now, just wait until 12 years from now when you're still driving the Volt and it just broke even with the Cruze.

If you get a cheaper new car now, with good gas ratings, however, you can still be ahead of the Volt in 11 years and wouldn't feel bad about getting a new car... again.

That's the way I see it. You can do whatever you want--obviously.

If you just want a Volt, get a Volt. Don't try to rationalize it with cost savings though...

People spend thousands for brand image or some new gizmo that may or may not ever be useful to them in the real world. I think if you want an electrical car and you can afford it, go for it! There are always innovators and early adopters and any new technology needs them!

[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 06-25-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Wichita: If there is anything to it. I don't think there is a single PFF member that has a Volt. I could be wrong and there might be one or two, but I'll be surprised if they chime in. Since you justify financing cars in the first place, your judgement for making a purchasing decision isn't based on any savings to your pocket book, because only financially illiterate people finance cars. Just go and get it and be done with it and smug it around and feel good about yourself. That's what you really want to do. Nobody is really going to care.

I agree with you on the 1st part.

However, the rest of it suggests you may be having a bad day.

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: People spend thousands for brand image or some new gizmo that may or may not ever be useful to them in the real world. I think if you want an electrical car and you can afford it, go for it! There are always innovators and early adopters and any new technology needs them!

I absolutely agree!

Yup, they have a quick charge unit, and that is what costs thousands of dollars to install.... and that doesn't include your household box and such.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Wouldn't a 208V circuit be faster and more efficient? Is one offered? Also, here's a link to a U.S. made all-electric option: http://www.arcimoto.com/ Definitely unconventional, but if it's a 2nd/commuter car, that could be ideal. I think they look pretty cool, too. It is nowhere near as practical as a Volt as far as being a conventional car goes, it's another option if it fits your needs/desires.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: if it hasn't been covered, you will want to price out the quick charging station, as that will run you a few thousand also. Sure, you can charge it overnight with 110V, but that is not really practical.

Charging station range from 500 - 2000, depending on what type of bells and whistles you want. The ones that go for 2 grand can be controlled via smart phone.

To keep from being political, even if you can mostly run on electric how long to you plan to keep it. Since batteries are now in the $4-$5K range, your going to have to replace them if you keep it long enough. Think about resale value....trying to sell it with a bad battery makes it worth next to nothing...battery will cost more than the cars worth. Would you spend $5K for an engine in your Fiero that you paid $1000 for ? Then you have the payments on that $40K car. That all will buy a lot of gasoline.

I spend $100-150 a week on gas and I dont even work.

Yeah, someone made that point earlier in the thread. That is a very valid concern.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: To keep from being political, even if you can mostly run on electric how long to you plan to keep it. Since batteries are now in the $4-$5K range, your going to have to replace them if you keep it long enough. Think about resale value....trying to sell it with a bad battery makes it worth next to nothing...battery will cost more than the cars worth. Would you spend $5K for an engine in your Fiero that you paid $1000 for ? Then you have the payments on that $40K car. That all will buy a lot of gasoline. I spend $100-150 a week on gas and I dont even work.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Nice. I wish we could get more Euro-Diesels here, but Americans, in general, are still reluctant to embrace diesels.

Diesel fumes cause cancer (and brake dust isn't exactly healthy, either)
Diesel-powered big rigs on the interstate

By Sebastian Blanco RSS feed

As if it wasn't clear from the bouts of coughing that sometimes happen when a truck goes by, diesel fumes are not good for people. After reviewing various studies, including one from the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), the World Health Organization has officially linked diesel exhaust to cancer, specifically lung and bladder cancers.

In "Diesel Engine Exhaust Carcinogenic" (PDF), the IARC says that "there has been mounting concern about the cancer-causing potential of diesel exhaust" and that it "found that diesel exhaust is a cause of lung cancer (sufficient evidence) and also noted a positive association (limited evidence) with an increased risk of bladder cancer." The IARC has considered diesel exhaust "probably carcinogenic to humans" since 1988, but hasn't been able to more concretely study the issue until now. Given that "large populations are exposed to diesel exhaust in everyday life, whether through their occupation or through the ambient air," it's been a long 24 years waiting.

http://green.autoblog.com/2...lnk1%26pLid%3D173070

A year or so ago, just for fun I had an electrician give me a price quote to install the 220v charging station for a Volt. If I remember right it was in the $4000-$5000 range. Dont forget to add that to the costs. I dont think anyone wants to use the 120v slow charging method that takes a 1/2 a day except old folks who only drive twice a week.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: A year or so ago, just for fun I had an electrician give me a price quote to install the 220v charging station for a Volt. If I remember right it was in the $4000-$5000 range. Dont forget to add that to the costs. I dont think anyone wants to use the 120v slow charging method that takes a 1/2 a day except old folks who only drive twice a week.

what thief did you get a quote from...
the 220volt "station" is no different than a dryer 220 plug even having to change your 100 amp service to a 200 amp service for the WHOLE house and the "station" would not be 3000.oo ..
the differance is a gfi breaker , think you need a new electrician.. cause that one is a thief

I'm pretty sure that gasoline fumes cause cancer too, burned or unburned.

The newer breed of diesels are extremely clean. Since the US switched from liquid turd diesel to low-sulphur, it has improved the ability for the cleaner euro-diesels to be certified. I'm not all in favor of the particulate filters and such, but they do work.

Back on topic: As has been stated before, the Volt won't pay for itself in fuel savings. So, if that is part of the motivation, it's not worth it.

But again, if you just want a Volt, then just buy it.

If it is really fuel economy, or rather not filling up as much, go with a VW jetta or rabbit/golf diesel. 600 miles isn't uncommon on a tank of fuel - on my 2000 Jetta TDI, I saw one tank (all highway) where I did just over 800 miles, which worked out to about 56 MPG. And you never have to replace the batteries, never have to 'charge' it.

quote Originally posted by carnut122: Diesel fumes cause cancer (and brake dust isn't exactly healthy, either) Diesel-powered big rigs on the interstate By Sebastian Blanco RSS feed As if it wasn't clear from the bouts of coughing that sometimes happen when a truck goes by, diesel fumes are not good for people. After reviewing various studies, including one from the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), the World Health Organization has officially linked diesel exhaust to cancer, specifically lung and bladder cancers. In "Diesel Engine Exhaust Carcinogenic" (PDF), the IARC says that "there has been mounting concern about the cancer-causing potential of diesel exhaust" and that it "found that diesel exhaust is a cause of lung cancer (sufficient evidence) and also noted a positive association (limited evidence) with an increased risk of bladder cancer." The IARC has considered diesel exhaust "probably carcinogenic to humans" since 1988, but hasn't been able to more concretely study the issue until now. Given that "large populations are exposed to diesel exhaust in everyday life, whether through their occupation or through the ambient air," it's been a long 24 years waiting. http://green.autoblog.com/2...lnk1%26pLid%3D173070

quote Originally posted by dsnover: I'm pretty sure that gasoline fumes cause cancer too, burned or unburned. The newer breed of diesels are extremely clean. Since the US switched from liquid turd diesel to low-sulphur, it has improved the ability for the cleaner euro-diesels to be certified. I'm not all in favor of the particulate filters and such, but they do work.

the problem with oil burners is you get less diesel per barrel of crude. than gas... it's almost 2 to 1..
diesels still don't get enough of a mpg difference to make it greener as it uses more crude stock per gallon of diesel fuel..
greenies forget this.. as it's out of sight

quote Originally posted by carnut122: Diesel fumes cause cancer (and brake dust isn't exactly healthy, either) Diesel-powered big rigs on the interstate

And mining the materials to make batteries results in heavy metal poisoning of the water table.
So get a car that doesn't use gas, diesel, or electric power and has no brakes.

Here's your new vehicle.

quote Originally posted by topcat: Charging station range from 500 - 2000, depending on what type of bells and whistles you want. The ones that go for 2 grand can be controlled via smart phone.

Installed? In my case, I would need to change out the box, and up the service to the house.... oh, and run the wire to the garage. These are hidden costs to Volt ownership.

I'm from Orange County - land of the status car - I have 2 friends with Volts and 1 with a Leaf. The leaf owner is totally dissatisfied as he can't drive to San Diego to visit his parents and make it back without recharging. Both Volt owners feel that they overpaid for what they get - an uninspiring car, lackluster interior, and, to date, zero chance that the fuel savings are going to pay off before 5 years. On the flip side, several friends with TDI vw's are totally happy with them, though the fuel savings are unlikely to pay off soon. Just a touch of input - most of us at fiero.nl are enthusiast drivers and are likely to get bored. Just my thoughts and observations.

quote Originally posted by FieroSTETZ: I'm from Orange County - land of the status car - I have 2 friends with Volts and 1 with a Leaf. The leaf owner is totally dissatisfied as he can't drive to San Diego to visit his parents and make it back without recharging. Both Volt owners feel that they overpaid for what they get - an uninspiring car, lackluster interior, and, to date, zero chance that the fuel savings are going to pay off before 5 years. On the flip side, several friends with TDI vw's are totally happy with them, though the fuel savings are unlikely to pay off soon. Just a touch of input - most of us at fiero.nl are enthusiast drivers and are likely to get bored. Just my thoughts and observations.

how happy are the TDI owners at being hit on by the same sex..

quote Originally posted by E.Furgal: how happy are the TDI owners at being hit on by the same sex..

Let me make sure I understand this. Someone retorts against your "diesel fuels having a greater impact on the environment than gasoline" and your response is a homophobic remark?

Classy.

------------------
I am the REAL Tony Kania.

[This message has been edited by ls3mach (edited 06-26-2012).]

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: Installed? In my case, I would need to change out the box, and up the service to the house.... oh, and run the wire to the garage. These are hidden costs to Volt ownership.

No that is not the installed price. The price of an electrician would be separate. As already stated it would be the same cost of having a 220v drop for a dryer added. In my case, the price of having it wired would be zero - my son is a licensed electrician

Yes, I’m another person who has never driven a volt but several members on the board do drive Honda Insights and are very happy with them.

I know another member from Ohio here in Marion has one.

One of the things they like about the Insight is that it handles and rides great even though it may not be a “plug in” car.

Just suggesting to take a test ride in one prior to making a decision. One of the things they like about the Insight is that it handles and rides great.

Hell, you want it and think you can afford it? buy it.

Who knows, maybe we will see some huge breakthroughs in solar electricity in the coming years. I would be all over an electric car then.

Not sure what ever happened with it but WA state was going to hit electric cars with a high tab tax stamp to make them pay their fare share.

I am a firm believer in getting and having what you want. We did similar cost comparisons with electric vs. gas golf carts. We got a used electric custom cart done by Western. Electric is very fun and quiet but with the batteries at around a 100 bucks a pop times 6 and a 4 to 6 year lifespan it is a big loser compared to gas BUT we like it! I think it cost about a buck fitty to charge.

The TV show Weeds did a funny bit with a drug dealer getting a fleet of Prius’s to do drive by shootings.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: Let me make sure I understand this. Someone retorts against your "diesel fuels having a greater impact on the environment than gasoline" and your response is a homophobic remark? Classy.

it was a joke.. my uncles gay.. vw is their car of choice.. a TDI is not green by any means , unless your like the hybrid owners that don't "see" the coal fired source

quote Originally posted by E.Furgal: it was a joke.. my uncles gay..

That doesn't mean it isn't a stupid joke.

I also hate this excuse. The:
"I have a Black friend so I'm not racist."
"I have a gay friend/family member so I'm not homophobic."
"I have a ___ so I'm not ___"

They are weak arguments.

quote Originally posted by E.Furgal: it was a joke.. my uncles gay.. vw is their car of choice.. a TDI is not green by any means , unless your like the hybrid owners that don't "see" the coal fired source

Being related to a gay person has what bearing on your homophobic "joke"?

I didn't see anywhere where topcat was hoping to go green. Simply that he liked the Volt and wanted to visit a gas station less.
Personally, I think buying 2 extra 5 gallon jugs of fuel each fill-up is the cheapest solution.

[This message has been edited by ls3mach (edited 06-26-2012).]