Reading a biography written by Bruce Thomas on the late famed martial artist Bruce Lee. Very interesting, he describes a man who had a violent temper, quick to fight, and had to be the center of attention. I dont believe he is intentionally trying to slander Bruce Lee, but only relating accounts from people that knew him. I guess we all know Bruce to be a greater fighter, film artist, who popularized Kung Fu in the 70's. He did all those things, but he does not appear to be a great person. Sounds like most Hollywood types today, mainly out for himself. That does not wear well with the humble image of the martial artist who is into self cultivation and only fights when needed. He was no Mr. Miyogi. In fact he did teach others, but often was only interested in using others to develop his own skills, and later trained Hollywood Celebs. I guess Kung Fu became a trend for a while.

Personally, I was watching him on youtube, his arms are all over the place. I dont think he was that good, but merely the first.

i know a couple of people with black belts in multiple disciplines. both are instructors and very skilled. but they are both very self-absorbed, and prone to threat and bluster when simple persuasion would suffice. there seems to be a basic insecurity underneath, which may explain why they went into martial arts in the first place. their knowledge of eastern philosophies is superficial at best, tending toward confucianism if any rather than taoism or buddhism.

not all are like this. i've had instructors who are kind, gentle people who can kick your butt but would prefer not to, nicest people you'll ever meet.

Certainly Bruce Lee does not represent all martial artist, in fact most are very humble. Simply today, most of all, you just cant go around punching and kicking people. He did have a vast knowledge of eastern philosophy, and read and tried to channel those philosophies into his films, but he did not live that philosophy of humility and humbleness. He was kinda a jerk, who liked to show off, especially if there were girls around. He was very small, only weighed like 145lbs, and so may have had a small man complex. This, I guess, was true when he came to America, as Americans were bigger and stronger. It challenged his skills.

Maybe he redeems himself later in the book, I will keep reading. We all know what we were like in our early twenties. He died at age 32, so he did not live long.

Van Damm is the same.
Norris, I am not sure he is that good anyway

I don't really think anyone could be correct saying Bruce was not that good at martial arts.
I haven't read much on him, but a bographical documentary showed him as having an amazingly strong will, and that, clashing with other peoples wills or societies expectations could maybe come off as a bully. I got the idea he did not let someone puch him around, and did not like to see others pushed around. He was hardened by not being accepted in his home country in the beginning because he saw that a specific fighting style did not make logical sense, so he combined tem and added his own touches. Opening schools to teach others.

There are parts to admire about most people, and parts that let one down. I'm sure he's no different.

I knew a guy who worked as a grip for ABC in the 60's-70's and worked on the Green Hornet show. The only negative thing I remember him saying about Bruce Lee was he was quite the "diva" on the set and was rather hard for the crew to get along with. Although he wasn't that well known in the US when the show premiered here, he was already a major star in China and didn't particularly care for playing "second banana" to Van Williams. In fact the same show was called "The Kato Show" in Chinese release.

Beyond that, I haven't heard much about his personality.

OK, I guess there's no way I can stay out of this.

First off, Bruce was OK, but nothing special. What made him amazing was that he was incredibly flexible and just so damn fast. Other than that, wing chun isn't really all that highly respected in the MA community. And a lot of his jeet kun do is just the wheel reinvented. He integrated a lot of internal martial arts (tai chi, shing ye, and bagua) into his wing chun. His "1 inch punch" is nothing more than an internal punch. Any well practiced tai chi artist who does water boxing or free fighting can do it. Probably people from other arts as well if they practice the method. The 1" punch is an example of what's referred to as "fa jing". It's developing the ability to release explosive power through body mechanics as opposed to using mass and acceleration. Being hit with a well practiced fa jing punch is about equivalent to being hit by a Mac truck.

To make blanket statements about people who train in MA is as dumb as any other blanket statement of that kind. Claims that there is some insecurity underneath, well, probably most can see that comment it for what it is. That's not to say that there aren't people who train for that reason, but frankly, anyone I've ever known who went into martial arts as an insecure individual gained a lot of self confidence over time. Honestly, that statement kind of reminds me of someone who got their ass handed to them once upon a time by some MA guy. People who are truly self confident don't need to posture or threaten. If you run into a martial artist who is a bully, or feels the need to puff out their chest, *chances are* it's a guy with little confidence in his art or his skill. The idiocy of that statement is that you could be surrounded by people who train in some kind of MA, and since they don't posture or threaten, you would never know their skill since they don't make a production out of it.

As for me, well, all I can say is that in our art, we don't do competitions or tournaments. We have a belt system sort of, but it's not the focus of the art, meaning, we don't pay to achieve a belt or rating. We go, we practice, we learn, we get better. When Dan thinks we're ready to advance he gives us a test and we pass, or we don't. It's not a big deal either way, because I'll never be "done". Whether I make the next highest ranking or not, I'll still be there next week, and the week after that, and the week after that, etc. infinity, for ten lifetimes....
I guess to me the bottom line is, it's the school that will teach a student ego or self confidence. Self confidence doesn't exist well with ego, and vise versa.I think the pressure to do tournaments and earn belts cultivates a bigger ego, but little self confidence. True self confidence isn't knowing that you can destroy your opponent, it's knowing you don't have to in order to prove something. That's why I've avoided mcdojo's like the plague.

Back to Bruce, I will say that I read some place that he would go down to the docks after his classes to try out the moves he had learned, to see if they would really work. (there's some erroneous thinking there, but I won't bother to try and explain it) that does indicate to me some degree of ego, or at the very least, an amount of indifference towards those he would mean to use as wooden men. As for using his students to practice, I can only say that pretty much ALL "hands on" teachers will do that. Students are unpredictable, and will throw some wild stuff at you, particularly those who have no real-world fighting experience. Teaching is a GREAT way to develop your own skills. That doesn't mean you want to cripple your student, or even hurt them, but that doesn't mean one can't gain some experience from teaching.

Funny, people always have something to say about him, just to hear themselves talk.

I am not going to get into this in any real depth but just a brief overview of what has been said in this thread.
I have been trained in JKD and taught JKD. Yes though nothing is particularly “new” it is a mix of the good stuff from any styles that actually have merit. To say he was nothing special is something less than ignorant and at best self serving. One of my very good friends was Bruce's first white student here in Seattle. I know many more in the old JKD community. I have heard many a story about Bruce's violent nature and huge ego, quick to beat on somebody that needed it. This is a warriors mentality. Walking away when confronted is not necessarily commendable, but weak and for the weak. Real world fighting is how you train and develop and test your skill set. There is always somebody willing to do this with you, you can find them almost anywhere.
Bars are excellent for this.

Why be humble? that’s weenie loser talk.

I guess we all know who your sensei was....

[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 06-21-2012).]

I share Bruce Lee's Chinese name.. pretty neat.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: .....

i'm going to assume this is a response to my post.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: To make blanket statements about people who train in MA is as dumb as any other blanket statement of that kind. Claims that there is some insecurity underneath, well, probably most can see that comment it for what it is.

my remarks were specifically about 2 individuals who i know personally, one in nashville and one in orlando. i also clearly stated that it does not apply to all practitioners. i'm at a loss as to why you appear to have taken it personally.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: Honestly, that statement kind of reminds me of someone who got their ass handed to them once upon a time by some MA guy.

in this case, sir, you would be mistaken.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy:People who are truly self confident don't need to posture or threaten.

precisely.

quote Originally posted by lurker: my remarks were specifically about 2 individuals who i know personally, one in nashville and one in orlando. i also clearly stated that it does not apply to all practitioners. i'm at a loss as to why you appear to have taken it personally.

Holy crap, no kidding. Somehow the first time I read through that I managed to take it entirely out of context. Where the bloody hell is the "contrite" smiley?

no harm, no foul. pm sent.

Well, reading on (in my biography) and staying on topic. Yes, the title of the thread, I have to admit, was to catch some attention from readers, but it did express my immediate feelings from the biography I was reading. Actually, the bio is not that good. It does report factual events in his life, but falls short of drawing lines that are obviously there.

Concerning Bruce’s temper, it has been well documented that he could easily fly into rages, and take these rages out on his students. One story describes Bruce doing some boxing at home with two of his students, with one student getting a lucky strike in on Bruce. He became so enraged he pummeled the guy, breaking his jaw.

Bruce had a huge ego, similar to many Hollywood celebrities, and was incredibly narcissistic. Everything was about him, and so he was obsessed with being famous. He held only one job when he came to America, that as a waiter which he quickly changed for giving Kung Fu lessons. He never worked a regular job after that, even when his family, a wife and two kids, needed the money. In fact, at one point he inherited $8,000 dollars, and rather then paying a late mortgage and mounting bills, he purchased a Porsche so he could go racing with Steve McQueen. His wife at one point went to work which upset him, but they needed the money. Despite all this he continued to believe and work toward trying to be famous.

Concerning Bruce’s martial arts skills. He was very talented, and certainly knew more than the general public. But, Bruce was more of a showman than anything else. Joe Lewis a champion fighter, commented in a filmed interview that Bruce was first a film maker, not a fighter. Bruce never competed. Chuck Norris also makes a similar comment about Bruce when he was asked if Bruce ever challenged him. Simply Chuck said, Bruce was a martial arts exhibitionist, and did not compete in the ring. He liked to give demonstrations where he was the center of attention. Both Joe and Chuck were champions and fought competitively. Bruce searched them out to help them with their training so he could list on his resume that he was training champions, who were already champions before they met him. In fact the exchange was more reciprocal, Chuck actually convinced Bruce to kick above the waist, some thing Bruce thought was inefficient.

Bruce, as we all know, voiced a reason for staying out of the ring. His feeling was tournament sparring, and point karate matches were not real, and there were too many rules. My feeling is he feared losing, and his ego and temperament could not handle the emotional roller coaster that came with competition. You can have the fastest car in the world if you never take it to the track. Meaning, Bruce could brag all he wanted about being fast, strong, and the best, if he never competed. The moment you compete you jeopardize your huge ego, and have to deal with losing. Every competitor knows, even if you win not to brag too much, because sooner or later you will have to deal with losing. Bruce liked to brag, and he could do this with his martial arts tricks. He practiced these and staged them well.

There are stories of his legendary fights, but these were with unsuspecting people in the street who stupidly challenged him, some even on the set of movies. How skilled an opponent they were is not known? They were easy prey for any one, especially one who is trained in the martial arts. Bruce had martial skills, but again he was not competing against anyone on his level. He avoided that to a point. He was challenged by masters from others schools, and these more or less resembled no holds brawls. Again, Bruce’s violent temper would appear, and he would attack with a vengeance. Yes, he won, but again who was he fighting? And, were they more concerned about his welfare, and just seeing a man who was without limits, extremely violent, and crazy. Martial artists practice and learn restraint, Bruce did not.

Bruce’s huge ego leads him to shun what others gave him, namely his instructor the famed Yipman, and his original martial art, Wing Chun. Of course, he had to create his own art, and he was only doing what many artists do in many other disciplines. Painters, musicians, and writers sample and pull from others and absorb what is useful to them and so it is the same with martial arts. A martial art is not a stagnant art, but all martial arts are “mixed”. They are influenced by each other and they evolve. Plus, it was the sixties and shunning authority was in vogue. Bruce may have been the first to break, or vocally announce what was going on. It was never that restricted, or horribly structured as he pretended. Maybe in China but he only trained a year in Wing Chun.

I am not trying to subtract from or destroy any ones hero. As a practioner myself I just wanted to learn more, and hearing all the time about Bruce, I wanted to look for myself. These are the things I discovered. If he was my friend I would be concerned about him, but I don’t believe he would have made a very good friend. I can’t imagine trying to learn from him, and I don’t believe he was a very good teacher. Teaching in itself is a skill that takes immense developmental knowledge and patience. Was Bruce that great a martial artist? There were others around that were better, but they never made it on film, or made a life of being an actor. Even now when I see a demonstration or attend a tournament I am amazed, there are some very talented people just in my vicinity.

I don’t believe or want Bruce to epitomize martial arts for me. And, so that is why I am reading this book, among some others I have read. He is not the typical martial artist. I enjoyed some of his films, like reading about him, and even talking about him. He should not be held in that high a regard. He made entertaining movies, and pioneered martial arts in American file. I mean he is no Chuck Norris. Oh wait, that’s another thread!!

[This message has been edited by RotrexFiero (edited 06-22-2012).]

quote Originally posted by RotrexFiero: <snip> I don’t believe or want Bruce to epitomize martial arts for me. And, so that is why I am reading this book, among some others I have read. He is not the typical martial artist. I enjoyed some of his films, like reading about him, and even talking about him. He should not be held in that high a regard. He made entertaining movies, and pioneered martial arts in American file. I mean he is no Chuck Norris. Oh wait, that’s another thread!!

That was a really good post. I disagree with a point here or there, but in general, it's very well stated. The problem with making claims that Bruce wasn't the end-all and be-all of martial arts is that there are far too many people who have for years worshiped him as some kind of kung-fu God. And just like many people, when it comes to their God, they aren't capable of recognizing any flaws in either the God, or their beliefs or thinking as it relates to that God. It won't matter who and how many state that he was an imperfect being, many will still choose to glorify him as some kind of deity. People don't realize just because he was the most popular, it doesn't make him the best. There's also a matter of era. Bruce was famous and in his prime in the 60's and 70's. By the standards of that day he may have stood out further from the crowd, although as you stated, that was almost entirely untested. But if you put Bruce Lee of that day and age in the octagon with any modern day MMA fighter it will probably be a pretty short contest with things ending badly for Bruce. Another thing that I think gets lost in the debates is what are we comparing? You can't compare an actor to an assassin. And in that day, there definitely were people who studied martial arts entirely for the purpose of ending a life, and actually used it to that end countless times. There was a Dutch-Indonesian man by the name of Willy Wetzel who was an assassin for the Dutch during WWII. Many of his kills (Indonesian rebels) were done with his bare hands. He moved to the states following the war, and I can assure you that had he and Bruce ever fought, there would be no mystery to what killed Bruce. But- if you're comparing the fighting abilities of actors, then Bruce would probably rate pretty high, although I doubt he would have actually beaten Chuck Norris. Chuck is big, powerful, and his skills were tested and proven to be authentic. Interestingly enough (this is why I left your comment about Chuck) I read an article many years ago in Men's Health. They assembled a large panel of professional fighters and a small smattering of others with knowledge of the arts to determine who would win in a contest of the most famous martial arts actors. I forget who all was on the panel, but it was an impressive list (including Jackie Chan who admits he's not a great fighter) they determined that among all the heroes of the day, including Norris, Lee, Jet Li, Seagal, and a few others (including Dolph Lundgren oddly enough) that Norris would be the guy to beat.
The one thing do I respect about Lee was his openness to new and different things. His ability to separate the wheat from the chaff, and cull various arts for their strengths is extremely admirable to me. Far too many martial artists are brainwashed into believing their art is "t3h r3als" and nothing else matters. That's why I study the art I do (aside from tai chi) is that the guy I train with encourages me to incorporate the internal aspects of my tai chi. He recognizes that I don't really "like" hard forms, and has helped me to develop the ability to switch back and forth between the two styles easily, which I believe makes me a better fighter. Bruce knew that, and aside from Gene LeBell, was ahead of the curve on that front.

quote Originally posted by lurker: i know a couple of people with black belts in multiple disciplines. both are instructors and very skilled. but they are both very self-absorbed, and prone to threat and bluster when simple persuasion would suffice. there seems to be a basic insecurity underneath, which may explain why they went into martial arts in the first place. their knowledge of eastern philosophies is superficial at best, tending toward confucianism if any rather than taoism or buddhism. not all are like this. i've had instructors who are kind, gentle people who can kick your butt but would prefer not to, nicest people you'll ever meet.

I've noticed the same thing too.

Now if they can both work together and prevent farting during the warm-up stretching... the world would be a better place.