A U.S. judge yesterday threw aside a much-anticipated trial between Apple and Google-owned Motorola Mobility over smartphone patents. The decision and a blog comment by the same judge could prove to be a watershed moment for a U.S. patent system that has spiraled out of control.
A small ray of sanity breaks through into the U.S. legal system!
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01:58 AM
PFF
System Bot
NoMoreRicers Member
Posts: 2192 From: Spokane, WA Registered: Mar 2009
Originally posted by NoMoreRicers: I like this Intellectual Property is not 'real' Property! Copying is not stealing!
No, and the money in your pocket is not "real" property, either. Care to share?
Or would you prefer that I just announce that anything you technically "own" is at my own beck and call, and that I can dispose of it however I wish? For that is no less than what you just said to others. I just said it more directly.
Copying, in certain circumstances, is most certainly "stealing." You were not born with an inherent right to take something that someone else created, and use it for your own pleasure or benefit.
These are certainly interesting times. The US patent system is "broken." It is overwhelmed with filings, it is hiring new examiners, but not training them very well. Bad stuff slips through; sound inventions get blocked. Giant corporations spend millions arguing over useless minutiae (e.g., Apple-Google), vying for a commercial advantage over each other, but knowing full well that it has nothing to do with any real, protectable inventions.
I can fully understand Judge Posner's position.
But that does not give you the right to claim that your petty acts of theft are anything, but what they are.
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03:03 AM
NoMoreRicers Member
Posts: 2192 From: Spokane, WA Registered: Mar 2009
No, and the money in your pocket is not "real" property, either. Care to share?
Let's first talk about where patents and copyrights came from. They both basically came from sovereigns or monarchs issuing monopolies to favored people. They were exclusive monopolies that protected various goods and services for a limited period of time. They were monopolies. One of the first patents in the 1500's was granting authority to pirates to become privateers, which is just legalized piracy.
Property is a natural right as it is an extension of one's self. I own me and I own the fruits of my labor. However copyrights and patents have expiration dates, therefore they are not property or a natural right. It's clearly a policy tool that was enacted because it was believed that it would bring about innovation.
quote
Originally posted by Shyster:
Copying, in certain circumstances, is most certainly "stealing." You were not born with an inherent right to take something that someone else created, and use it for your own pleasure or benefit.
I notice you didn't answer a rather simple and direct question. "..care to share?"
Or even better, just send all your personal id information. DoB--SS#--bank Acct #s (don't forget the Pin#s) address, name. You'll still be you-(the original) -and you can still make a living and a salary just like always---people will just be making a copy of 'you' for their own personal enjoyment. No harm done--It's not really stealing--is it? right?
a thief is a theif is a theif.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 06-10-2012).]
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05:54 AM
NoMoreRicers Member
Posts: 2192 From: Spokane, WA Registered: Mar 2009
I notice you didn't answer a rather simple and direct question. "..care to share?"
LOL, I guess I had a comprehension fail. I took "care to share?" as him asking me to elaborate. Now that I understand I can answer accordingly. I honestly don't often share, as in donating money. However I am generous with time and labor. I have lots of documented charity work and I participate in things such as March of Dimes. Although one could say they definitely weren't acts of altruism
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Originally posted by maryjane:
Or even better, just send all your personal id information. DoB--SS#--bank Acct #s (don't forget the Pin#s) address, name. You'll still be you-(the original) -and you can still make a living and a salary just like always---people will just be making a copy of 'you' for their own personal enjoyment. No harm done--It's not really stealing--is it? right?
a thief is a theif is a theif.
With the whole "bank Acct #s," are you inferring that 'they' would be spending my money? That would definitely be stealing.
If somebody made a DNA-matching clone of me, that would be copying and no theft has occurred.
I guess I'm not really sure what you are getting at?
It's not your money. It's the money of the cloned account holder. I would NEVER take YOUR money--or your car or even your wife (assuming you have one) not that she would want a broken down old man with an unfulfilled biscuit addiction. I was thinking more along the lines of simply using your shared information to make 'new' money--perhaps buy a house with that shared good faith and credit, flipping that property and taking a nice vacation using the proceeds of that sale. And even if it was 'your' money, that has always been the argument put forth by the many many defenders of music/video theft. "The manufactorer still has the original, I just made a copy--they can make more to sell, so it's not really stealing."
You--the original--still would exist, and as such, can simply make more money. Oh yes, this would be fraud and there are laws agaist fraudulent activity, but so what? There are laws against IP theft too, but we do get to pick and chose which laws we follow and which we don't--right? This IS still America and we DO have that right--don't we? To be able to circumvent laws at our own discretion? Sure we do--just ask almost anyoine here. (But it's 'probably' not a good idea to ask me, tho if one does, I ALWAYS answer--to do otherwise is just rude behavior)
I don't much like theives and never will. If tomorrow, some entity of great power and wisdom were to gather all the theives, disassemble them into their fundamental molecules and othe bits, send them all in torrents spread randomly into deep space, I would neither bat an eye nor shed a tear. And, why would i? They aren't really gone--they'll still be there. They're just being shared with the great cosmos, and would be very content at that, considering most people have always had a deep longing to go out into space and see the stars. And, since in all liklihood, their dna would probably still be around here somewhere, someone of great ability and dedication could make more of them anyway if they really wished to.
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07:02 AM
MidEngineManiac Member
Posts: 29566 From: Some unacceptable view Registered: Feb 2007
Move to Canada. Up here its NOT "stealing" ...... we pay a tax/ levy on all blank media and recording devices that goes to media producers to compensate them for private copying....and once ya have that private copy, reverse engineering for the comparative purpose of NOT violating copyright/ patents is perfectly legal,....You still own your original design, but it has been circumvented perfectly legally. In the case of media downloads, the recording association/artist/author has been compensated via the levy you paid on the media or recording device.
Up here, a patent/ copyright is really only good in protecting you from somebody taking an exact copy of your work commercial. It wont help you the least bit for private copying of anything, or commercial "clones" that skirt your design. Basically, a patent isnt really worth the time it takes to get one up here for most products.
<edit> Where I REALLY noticed and head-butted over the difference in the 2 countries systems is the 15 years I spent interested in homebuilt aircraft and plans-built unltralights. It was a DAILY "you cant do that, its illegal" from the Americans, and a "Oh, yes I can and oh, no its not" from the Canadians.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 06-10-2012).]
OK.....you design a widget and get a patent on it....(real simplified version)
I download and copy your patent documents/ game/ software/ whatever--legally.... I reverse engineer for the express purpose of NOT violating your design on the widget....OR just for my own curiosity to satisfy myself how it works (either/ or is perfectly legal) I design a clone widgit (calling it a widgitt instead of a widget)....
(all the above done privately, so perfectly legal)...I might even have a "benafactor" giving me interest-free loans to live on while I do all this, just because they like me--or I could do it on my own time for my own interest...)
Now I decide to go and sell my widgitt to whoever...American buyer might have a court battle but would loose due to jurisdiction, Chinese would just say "frack ya". You would loose for the same reasons as you would have to come to Canada to sue me to protect your widget, and as it is legal in Canada you have no case...and as I have no US presence, they have no jurisdiction.
But in the long run, I still got a widgitt on the market that is a direct descendant of your widget
Some of the cases I have seen are so ludicrous and so simple its amazing....the funniest (not to him) I saw was a guy got bypassed on a type of pot straining lid (kinda neat design) because his competitor moved the configuration of the straining holes, making it "similar but not the same" and the courts ruled in favor of the competitor that had copied him....and they did it as described above.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 06-10-2012).]
Any system will be abused once enough money is at stake. I think the concept of a patent system was good as the litle guy did need some protection, but there are always holes ( both intentional and intentional ) in any system. We now see the holes in this one.
Somewhat related due to some of the posts above, I still think its funny the FBI illegally removed copies of the drives for the stupid megaupload 'ip violation" case, under cover of darkness and quietly shipped them across the border using fedex. Once they got caught and the other government complained they claimed it wasn't stealing since they just copied it and didn't take the originals.. Cant have it both ways guys. Even the governments cant figure out what they are doing in this 'brave new world'.
Some of the cases I have seen are so ludicrous and so simple its amazing....the funniest (not to him) I saw was a guy got bypassed on a type of pot straining lid (kinda neat design) because his competitor moved the configuration of the straining holes, making it "similar but not the same" and the courts ruled in favor of the competitor that had copied him....and they did it as described above.
Right, often times filing a patent just lets the big guys -copy- the idea even before you can get to market.. And remember too, as the 'infringee' you have to pony up the cash to sue the "infringer", something a lot of people cant do, or cant compete with the super high end attorneys that the other side has on staff.
if your product supports it, these days calling something a trade secret and not patenting is often the safer better route. At least then you get some sales before your product is reverse engineered.
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 06-10-2012).]
I notice you didn't answer a rather simple and direct question. "..care to share?"
Or even better, just send all your personal id information. DoB--SS#--bank Acct #s (don't forget the Pin#s) address, name. You'll still be you-(the original) -and you can still make a living and a salary just like always---people will just be making a copy of 'you' for their own personal enjoyment. No harm done--It's not really stealing--is it? right?
a thief is a theif is a theif.
If they are not diminishing your existence by claiming they are you, no, no harm was done. But even if they are, its still not *theft* unless they come and drain your bank account or something of that nature, but the act of taking the money was theft, but not 'copying' your identity. The only way copying your identity would be considered theft is if you could no longer be you as then it was technically 'removed' from your possession..
Its only theft if the original is no longer available for use by the people that originally possessed the 'data'.
While i fully admit that copying data may be a crime in some cases, its not a crime of *theft* ( fraud would be a better term for your example above ). Its too bad so many people are too gullible to be suckered into thinking that copying is theft. But its all part of the campaign by the media to manipulate peoples opinions.
its sad that so many people are so stupid to fall for it. But ten again, i don't have a high opinion of society.
Perhaps someday you will figure out there is a difference. There is always hope.
[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 06-10-2012).]
Ah--so the FBI did exactly as so many others have done and now you find it ironic that they used the same ploy you guys have claimed is fair play? Aww--- " Boo hoo hoo. Hey--they can't do that--I went to a lot of trouble to steal, then copy that and store it there--now they have a copy of my copy--that's just.... I dunno--wrong" Boo Boo Hoo.."
Too bad so many people are so comfortable with breaking the laws of the land (regardless of which laws or the samantics used). I suppose, as always, some people will always go to great great lengths to convince themselves and others that the taking of things that aren't legally theirs--is not theft.
And of course, all these people who openly and often claim there is no theft involved ALWAYS do their copying in the open instead of behind usernames *and more) and they ALWAYS let the authorites and rightful owners know about it beforehand--right?
Ah--so the FBI did exactly as so many others have done and now you find it ironic that they used the same ploy you guys have claimed is fair play? :
Not exactly. I find its ironic they are prosecuting people for what they have just claimed to another government that it wasn't a crime. Either it is or it isn't, you cant have ti both ways. And you seem to conveniently forget that i have agreed on several occasions that copying data without permission is currently illegal, i just disagree that its *theft*. ( i wont go into my moral stance on the issue of "infringement", as its OT to the thread and not relevant )
And I'm a bit disappointed, i left a little 'easter egg' up above that you missed .... Was a test to see if you were paying attention.
Oh I was paying attention--read the "gullible part and the "maybe someday" part- and the "too stupid" part---but considered it ot to this discussion. You are as always--welcome to your opinion and I prefer it being posted rather than not.
Oh I was paying attention--read the "gullible part and the "maybe someday" part- and the "too stupid" part---but considered it ot to this discussion. You are as always--welcome to your opinion and I prefer it being posted rather than not.
Actually, it wasn't either of those. I used the term 'steal' in relation to patent ideas.
Ill go change it to what it should have read. I tried..
Well, I can't read every single word, (I'm just not that awesome I suppose) and I would not be very likely to draw the use of a single word like a weapon against a previously stated and long held stance anyway.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 06-10-2012).]
Well, I can't read every single word, (I'm just not that awesome I suppose) and I would not be very likely to draw the use of a single word like a weapon against a previously stated and long held stance anyway.
In this case i was setting you up to call me a hypocrite if you saw it, so i thought it stood out like a sore thumb But I am getting way OT now... and no need to muck up this thread anymore with piddly stuff...
