Oh, well....its only 4 bolts and a couple harness connectors to take out the on-star system and toss it in the trash.....at least until Government Motors starts routing ECM functions thru it like they do the stereo.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 10-16-2011).]
Oh, well....its only 4 bolts and a couple harness connectors to take out the on-star system and toss it in the trash.....at least until Government Motors starts routing ECM functions thru it like they do the stereo.
I think its *all* on-star offerings, not just built in GM stuff. And i thought they retracted that after getting a lot of flack for it?
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10:14 AM
WhiteDevil88 Member
Posts: 8518 From: Coastal California Registered: Mar 2007
I think its *all* on-star offerings, not just built in GM stuff. And i thought they retracted that after getting a lot of flack for it?
It's a GM product, so I can understand the misprint. But I do know that at least it at one time, Audi, Isuzu, Acura, Subaru, and Volkswagen Used OnStar under license from GM.
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10:44 AM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
If and I say if it is like a cell phone that is out of service it still allows you to dial 911 even then. so being it is there for accidents as well as telephone it makes sence.
now for those tinfoil hat people I can see how it would seem like big brother.
me I could care less, the only reason I would buy it is for the accident notification. I don't like cell phones except for emegencys. steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
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11:33 AM
MidEngineManiac Member
Posts: 29566 From: Some unacceptable view Registered: Feb 2007
If and I say if it is like a cell phone that is out of service it still allows you to dial 911 even then. so being it is there for accidents as well as telephone it makes sence.
now for those tinfoil hat people I can see how it would seem like big brother.
me I could care less, the only reason I would buy it is for the accident notification. I don't like cell phones except for emegencys. steve
Yeh, well I dont want a ticket in the mail because my vehical did a rolling stop in the middle of the night or was doing 10-or-15 over somewhere 6 months ago. Call me a tinfoil-hat, but I just dont trust the corporations and the government enough to voluntarily give them my location and speed.
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11:52 AM
1fatcat Member
Posts: 1519 From: Zimmerman, Mn Registered: Dec 2010
OnStar Tracks Your Car Even When You Cancel Service
Oh, well....its only 4 bolts and a couple harness connectors to take out the on-star system and toss it in the trash.....at least until Government Motors starts routing ECM functions thru it like they do the stereo.
On Star has had the ability to track vehicles ever since it first came out many years ago. Even if you canceled service or never signed up for it in the first place. I know this from repairing them at the dealer (a lot of times it was a recall and a lot of them were never-before-activated systems). Part of the test procedure is to hit the blue button and I.D. yourself as a tech, then ask the On Star opperator to I.D. the vehicle and it's current location to verify connectivity.
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11:58 AM
2farnorth Member
Posts: 3402 From: Leonard, Tx. USA Registered: Feb 2001
From what I understand the ECM already keeps a rolling record of the last 10 min(??) or so of the vehicles activities. Supposed to be available for police/court if requested in event of an accident. Can anyone confirm this? I know it has occurred on big trucks recently.
If and I say if it is like a cell phone that is out of service it still allows you to dial 911 even then. so being it is there for accidents as well as telephone it makes sence.
now for those tinfoil hat people I can see how it would seem like big brother.
me I could care less, the only reason I would buy it is for the accident notification. I don't like cell phones except for emegencys. steve
Except they did specifically state they would continue real time tracking and data mining. That is more than a 'emergency cell phone' to me. Not saying they are doing nefarious things with the data, other than selling 'trending data' to make money off it and not compensating you for it, but the potential is here as when you cancel service to a product it should be *gone*.
Also, who is to say that they wouldn't turn it back on to 'full service' at the request of judge, or law, down the road?
From what I understand the ECM already keeps a rolling record of the last 10 min(??) or so of the vehicles activities. Supposed to be available for police/court if requested in event of an accident. Can anyone confirm this? I know it has occurred on big trucks recently.
Depends on the ECM, but yes, most new ones do.
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01:10 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 41438 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
If this bothers you, look around. If your vehicle has OnStar, there will be an onstar transceiver somewhere in the vehicle. (It's under the back seat in our Trailblazer.) Unscrew the antenna cable. Done.
By the way, I believe that OnStar converted to digital a few years ago. Older analog units were supposed to become useless after the conversion.
quote
Originally posted by 2farnorth:
From what I understand the ECM already keeps a rolling record of the last 10 min(??) or so of the vehicles activities. Supposed to be available for police/court if requested in event of an accident. Can anyone confirm this? I know it has occurred on big trucks recently.
Actually, that data is stored in the Passive Restraint (airbag) module, I believe. It's the last few minutes before an airbag deployment.
From what I understand the ECM already keeps a rolling record of the last 10 min(??) or so of the vehicles activities. Supposed to be available for police/court if requested in event of an accident. Can anyone confirm this? I know it has occurred on big trucks recently.
The ECM may do this too, but I know the SDM (Sensing & Diagnostic Module) does this. It's the computer that monitors air bag systems. It has an internal power reserve that will keep the module active for 10 minutes after battery voltage is lost.
You could argue that it's sole purpose is to keep the bags live for an additional 10 minutes after a collision that may have cut power, then the bags would still be active if another vehicle collided with the 'already crippled' vehicle. Thus providing more protection for the occupants.
Or
You could argue that it's sole purpose is to record and store the vehicle speed, brake activity, and possibly other paramitters before, durring and after a collision.
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01:56 PM
1fatcat Member
Posts: 1519 From: Zimmerman, Mn Registered: Dec 2010
The ECM may do this too, but I know the SDM (Sensing & Diagnostic Module) does this. It's the computer that monitors air bag systems. It has an internal power reserve that will keep the module active for 10 minutes after battery voltage is lost.
You could argue that it's sole purpose is to keep the bags live for an additional 10 minutes after a collision that may have cut power, then the bags would still be active if another vehicle collided with the 'already crippled' vehicle. Thus providing more protection for the occupants.
Or
You could argue that it's sole purpose is to record and store the vehicle speed, brake activity, and possibly other paramitters before, durring and after a collision.
True it may not be the *actual* ecm, i know i was speaking generically up above, but i also know that some pre-crash data is stored and has been used in court.
If this bothers you, look around. If your vehicle has OnStar, there will be an onstar transceiver somewhere in the vehicle. (It's under the back seat in our Trailblazer.) Unscrew the antenna cable. Done.
My camaro has not talked to OnStar in over a year.
I think its *all* on-star offerings, not just built in GM stuff. And i thought they retracted that after getting a lot of flack for it?
I don't think it matters what they say they're going to do... the technology by default tracks location. And honestly, regardless of what they say they're going to do, a warrant from a law enforcement agency can force them to use that data. But, we as Americans still have our 4th amendment right, and that follows under the 4th amendment right of right against improper search and seizure. Despite what Hollywood and the MSM say, if technology was used like this and the prosecutor cannot prove that a warrant was issued, and it doesn't meet the requirements of the patriot act (terrorism), then the defense could sue the **** out of the government, and that has happened several times.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I don't think it matters what they say they're going to do... the technology by default tracks location. And honestly, regardless of what they say they're going to do, a warrant from a law enforcement agency can force them to use that data. But, we as Americans still have our 4th amendment right, and that follows under the 4th amendment right of right against improper search and seizure. Despite what Hollywood and the MSM say, if technology was used like this and the prosecutor cannot prove that a warrant was issued, and it doesn't meet the requirements of the patriot act (terrorism), then the defense could sue the **** out of the government, and that has happened several times.
I don't see how this isn't a 5th amendment violation. Also unless your battery is taken out of your cellular phone. You are being tracked.
------------------ I can ride my bike with no handlebars.
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02:56 PM
PFF
System Bot
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 25659 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
I don't see how this isn't a 5th amendment violation. Also unless your battery is taken out of your cellular phone. You are being tracked.
Don't you mean 4th amendement? The 5th amendment is the right to Due Process, innocent until proven guilty. The 4th amendment is the right against improper search and seizure.
It's not a violation of your right when you agree to it. Every day we sign waivers and put our names on every possibly thing and don't read the fine print. When you sign your name at the U-Pull-It junkyard, you're signing away your right to a defense if you get injured. When you buy a car from General Motors, part of what you're agreeing to is the acceptance of the product, it's functionality, and the warranty that comes with it. You knowingly buy a car with On-Star, you are accepting the terms of use and agreement. You always get OnStar free for a year, so when the service expires, you've still agreed to the terms of the product, even if certain services provided by the product are no longer being honored.
We live in a complicated world now with technology. However, for the government to make use of this technology against you, they HAVE to abide by the law. When you watch shows like Psyche, or The X-Files... and the agents just walk right into homes without a warrant, that sh1t never happens... they would lose their jobs immediately, and it would totally compromise the investigation or arrest.
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03:11 PM
USFiero Member
Posts: 4879 From: Everywhere and Middle of Nowhere Registered: Mar 2002
News to everyone, the 'Ashcroft Clause' means that even if you turn the 'Location' feature off on your cell phone, your location is still being broadcast. The only way to not be traced? Turn off your cell phone - or go to 'airplane mode.'
I have OnStar in my Chev. I wish I had it in my Fiero.
If the Chev gets stolen, they can find it fast. If I'm in an accident I can get help fast. If there is a mechanical/electrical fault while I'm on the road, I can get a diagnosis fast and a tow if I need it.
I've even used it to call in an emergency for another motorist.
For all the tin hat guys and the paranoid guys, don't worry, be happy.
As for the majority of the motoring GM buyers, the technology is a great little safety feature.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Don't you mean 4th amendement? The 5th amendment is the right to Due Process, innocent until proven guilty. The 4th amendment is the right against improper search and seizure.
It's not a violation of your right when you agree to it. Every day we sign waivers and put our names on every possibly thing and don't read the fine print. When you sign your name at the U-Pull-It junkyard, you're signing away your right to a defense if you get injured. When you buy a car from General Motors, part of what you're agreeing to is the acceptance of the product, it's functionality, and the warranty that comes with it. You knowingly buy a car with On-Star, you are accepting the terms of use and agreement. You always get OnStar free for a year, so when the service expires, you've still agreed to the terms of the product, even if certain services provided by the product are no longer being honored.
We live in a complicated world now with technology. However, for the government to make use of this technology against you, they HAVE to abide by the law. When you watch shows like Psyche, or The X-Files... and the agents just walk right into homes without a warrant, that sh1t never happens... they would lose their jobs immediately, and it would totally compromise the investigation or arrest.
Self-incrimination
The Fifth Amendment protects witnesses from being forced to incriminate themselves. To "plead the Fifth" is to refuse to answer a question because the response could provide self-incriminating evidence of an illegal act punishable by fines, penalties or forfeiture.[13] Historically, the legal protection against self-incrimination was directly related to the question of torture for extracting information and confessions.[14][15] The legal shift away from widespread use of torture and forced confession dates to turmoil of the late 16th and early 17th century in England.[16] Anyone refusing to take the oath ex officio mero (confessions or swearing of innocence, usually before hearing any charges) was considered guilty.[16] Suspected Puritans were pressed to take the oath and then reveal names of other Puritans. Coercion and torture were commonly used to compel "cooperation." Puritans, who were at the time fleeing to the New World, began a practice of refusing to cooperate with interrogations. In the most famous case John Lilburne refused to take the oath in 1637. His case and his call for "freeborn rights" were rallying points for reforms against forced oaths, forced self-incrimination, and other kinds of coercion. Oliver Cromwell's revolution overturned the practice and incorporated protections, in response to a popular group of English citizens known as the Levellers. The Levellers presented The Humble Petition of Many Thousands to Parliament in 1647 with 13 demands, third of which was the right against self-incrimination in criminal cases. These protections were brought to America by Puritans, and were later incorporated into the United States Constitution through the Bill of Rights. Protection against self-incrimination is implicit in the Miranda rights statement, which protects the "right to remain silent." This amendment is also similar to Section 13 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In other Commonwealth of Nations countries like Australia and New Zealand, the right to silence of the accused both during questioning and at trial is regarded as an important right inherited from common law, and is protected in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and in Australia through various federal and state acts and codes governing the criminal justice system. The Supreme Court has held that "a witness may have a reasonable fear of prosecution and yet be innocent of any wrongdoing. The privilege serves to protect the innocent who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances."[17]
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04:18 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
The Fifth Amendment protects witnesses from being forced to incriminate themselves. To "plead the Fifth" is to refuse to answer a question because the response could provide self-incriminating evidence of an illegal act punishable by fines, penalties or forfeiture.[13] Historically, the legal protection against self-incrimination was directly related to the question of torture for extracting information and confessions.[14][15] The legal shift away from widespread use of torture and forced confession dates to turmoil of the late 16th and early 17th century in England.[16] Anyone refusing to take the oath ex officio mero (confessions or swearing of innocence, usually before hearing any charges) was considered guilty.[16] Suspected Puritans were pressed to take the oath and then reveal names of other Puritans. Coercion and torture were commonly used to compel "cooperation." Puritans, who were at the time fleeing to the New World, began a practice of refusing to cooperate with interrogations. In the most famous case John Lilburne refused to take the oath in 1637. His case and his call for "freeborn rights" were rallying points for reforms against forced oaths, forced self-incrimination, and other kinds of coercion. Oliver Cromwell's revolution overturned the practice and incorporated protections, in response to a popular group of English citizens known as the Levellers. The Levellers presented The Humble Petition of Many Thousands to Parliament in 1647 with 13 demands, third of which was the right against self-incrimination in criminal cases. These protections were brought to America by Puritans, and were later incorporated into the United States Constitution through the Bill of Rights. Protection against self-incrimination is implicit in the Miranda rights statement, which protects the "right to remain silent." This amendment is also similar to Section 13 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In other Commonwealth of Nations countries like Australia and New Zealand, the right to silence of the accused both during questioning and at trial is regarded as an important right inherited from common law, and is protected in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and in Australia through various federal and state acts and codes governing the criminal justice system. The Supreme Court has held that "a witness may have a reasonable fear of prosecution and yet be innocent of any wrongdoing. The privilege serves to protect the innocent who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances."[17]
Ah well, I'm an idiot. But I don't see how it's self incrimination? If you're agreeing to a document, and there's no coersion, then I don't see how it would be considered that?
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Ah well, I'm an idiot. But I don't see how it's self incrimination? If you're agreeing to a document, and there's no coersion, then I don't see how it would be considered that?
They are using my information against me. It just seems like I should have to consent.
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04:55 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 25659 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
They are using my information against me. It just seems like I should have to consent.
Well, they're not doing anything, actually. I mean, the capability to track the car is there, but it's not like it's actually being done. If someone, even an employee of GM (On-Star division?) who decided on a whim that he was going to track his girlfriend's where-abouts if she drives an on-star equipped car, he could (and would) immediately go to jail. In order for the US government to do something of that nature, they would need to get a warrant. There have been situations in times past where the police department has used On-Star to kill the ignition of a car that was involved in a high-speed chase. In that situation, it was acceptable because the person was in immediate violation of the law.
The government, and law enforcement cannot willy nilly just spy on it's own population unless there is a warrant issued, or it meets the very specific guidelines as laid out in the Patriot Act. There are tens of thousands of lawyers who would jump at any chance to be involved in a lawsuit against the federal government. "Warantless Wiretapping" is allowed by the Patriot Act as long as it meets the guidelines... and I'm sure they have to be very careful because if someone is discovered having been wiretapped, and clearly had nothing to do with terrorism... imagine the outcry Fox News would have (under the current administration) or MSNBC would have (if we had a Republican president).
They are using my information against me. It just seems like I should have to consent.
You do consent. Read the fine print of the contract you sign with OnStar, or your cell, phone for that matter. Or just listen real close, if the salesperson follows their script correctly, they'll tell you.
[This message has been edited by Zeb (edited 10-16-2011).]
I have OnStar in my Chev. I wish I had it in my Fiero.
If the Chev gets stolen, they can find it fast. If I'm in an accident I can get help fast. If there is a mechanical/electrical fault while I'm on the road, I can get a diagnosis fast and a tow if I need it.
I've even used it to call in an emergency for another motorist.
For all the tin hat guys and the paranoid guys, don't worry, be happy.
As for the majority of the motoring GM buyers, the technology is a great little safety feature.
Arn
On Star is now available as a stand-alone aftermarket unit, if I heard some advertising correctly. So, you CAN get OnStar for your Fiero!
My wife had On Star in her 01 Venture, and really liked it. Except for the voice recognition, which seemed like it just didn't like her. Worked fine for me, I just didn't YELL AT IT!
Unfortuately it was the old analog version, and went away a few years ago. I was utterly amazed they never even attempted to make a conversion or upgrade available. Missed business opportunity.
[This message has been edited by Zeb (edited 10-16-2011).]
Anyone know what year the analog to digital switchover was? Would 2008 be the old (analog) unit or the new (digital) version? Does the transciever have it's own antenna or does it use the little black antenna on top of the roof?
Yes, the voice recognition function sucks as far as I'm concerned. Usually took several attempts to get it to work--back before I removed the antenna.
Anyone know what year the analog to digital switchover was? Would 2008 be the old (analog) unit or the new (digital) version? Does the transciever have it's own antenna or does it use the little black antenna on top of the roof?
Yes, the voice recognition function sucks as far as I'm concerned. Usually took several attempts to get it to work--back before I removed the antenna.
Seeing as my wife's was an '01, and went away pretty soon, I'd say '08's are digital. It has it's own antenna, AFAIK. I believe my wife's Venture has THREE antennae(?). Normal radio, OnStar cell, and OnStar GPS. I forget which is which....
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09:54 PM
carnut122 Member
Posts: 9122 From: Waleska, GA, USA Registered: Jan 2004
Yeh, well I dont want a ticket in the mail because my vehical did a rolling stop in the middle of the night or was doing 10-or-15 over somewhere 6 months ago. Call me a tinfoil-hat, but I just dont trust the corporations and the government enough to voluntarily give them my location and speed.
I let mine expire on my 2010 Equinox and then State Farm teamed up with GM and offered me a year for free (maybe both want to track me?). The freaky thing is that they email me a monthly report telling me if my tires need air and if the oil needs to be changed. Now there's a multimillion dollar solution to a $2.00 problem.
Anyone know what year the analog to digital switchover was? Would 2008 be the old (analog) unit or the new (digital) version? Does the transciever have it's own antenna or does it use the little black antenna on top of the roof?
Yes, the voice recognition function sucks as far as I'm concerned. Usually took several attempts to get it to work--back before I removed the antenna.
If you cancel service then kill OnStar module just kill OnStar and saves power however much OnStar uses. At this time... OnStar is an add-on item, not built in to BCM or PCM in most/all cars. Likely GM in future will make OnStar build-in to BCM, Sound system, etc, and then disabling OnStar is harder...
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I have OnStar in my Chev. I wish I had it in my Fiero.
If the Chev gets stolen, they can find it fast. If I'm in an accident I can get help fast. If there is a mechanical/electrical fault while I'm on the road, I can get a diagnosis fast and a tow if I need it.
I've even used it to call in an emergency for another motorist.
For all the tin hat guys and the paranoid guys, don't worry, be happy.
As for the majority of the motoring GM buyers, the technology is a great little safety feature.
Arn
Oh good, at least someone here is sane. On Star is not your enemy. It's there to help if needed and to make things easier if you want to pay for the services. GM doesn't record your conversations in the car, they don't nark on you to your insurance company if you speed, and they certainly don't track your every move.
The system is there for safety reasons mostly. Some may not know this, but if an air bag deploys in an On Star equiped vehicle, On Star will AUTOMATICALLY call for help...so if you get knocked the F#@$ out in a crash in the middle of nowhere, On Star has your azz.
Oh good, at least someone here is sane. On Star is not your enemy. It's there to help if needed and to make things easier if you want to pay for the services. GM doesn't record your conversations in the car, they don't nark on you to your insurance company if you speed, and they certainly don't track your every move.
OnStar was hacked by police to tap/spy on people. Stopped because Court didn't like it at the time... Why? Because their hack disables OnStar when police actually listening in. (Pre 9/11 I think) Do you trust DOJ, FBI, and ICE, w/ there warrantless searches, wire tap, etc, etc? OnStar/GM is selling you data to anyone w/ money to spend. Police, insurance, and others, are just waiting to get access OnStar's data to mine. GM/OnStar Said data will be "Anonimize" data but if said data include VIN, location, and speed... Then any state agencies just look up VIN and sends ticket to owner on record, like red light camera. Great way to generate revenue...
Search Wired and other computer news.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 10-17-2011).]
