quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I think you need to rethink yourself.

I misunderstood your post, Boon. I thought it was a jab at him. Yes, I did think it was very uncharacteristic of you.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Wasn't Jesus a liberal?

I can't say He's not, but I can't say He is.
He didn't go into politics much, but did talk about respecting the laws. That's about all, if I read correctly.

He was into people helping people, surely. He was all about the rich helping the poor. However, nothing of what he said was about it being government mandated. That's where the difference lies. Conservatives also have a desire to help the poor--they just don't feel it's the government's job.

quote Originally posted by Gridlock: Wow. Really? They had dinosaurs on the boat? Just the living ones, yes? This is by far the most ridiculous post I have ever read on PFF, and there are and were some mighty dumb posts to compete with. This is actually topping the dead ferret thread featuring poetry for the animal. Seriously. You have to stop spouting sunday school rhetoric as fact. You can't engage in a conversation of this type fighting religious fact for scientific fact. You sound like a donkey. I have respect for someone that says" I have faith in God, and if the bible says it happened, I have faith it did." It's ok to say " As a result, I have questions of how its possible, but my faith tells me I don't need the answers" Done. Don't tell me that God took the dinosaurs of the time, made them docile and packed them in a gd boat for 40 days. Don't tell me that the continents may have been connected...because that's a lot of continental drift to occur in 4500 years. You don't have all the answers. You can't even try. The bible doesn't mention dinosaurs. Don't try to ret-con them in. The bible was written at a time that the new world was unknown. Don't try to make up some bullshit answer about it being connected. It wasn't. And seriously, stop trying to cram millions of years of planetary development into some 6000 year window claimed in the bible. And don't threaten me with eternal damnation because I don't believe the same things you do. That's cheap.

Umm, thankfully, someone posted a link about the dinosaurs in the Bible. Yes they're in there. Look at Job 40 till the end.

Regarding the continents, Seriously... if you take a map and cut out the current continents, though imperfectly, they connect together.

And just because you don't believe in eternal damnation, doesn't make it untrue. I guess you're going to learn the hard way. But I promise you, that what I told you is for real. And my words will be vindicated when you die.

quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: Regarding the continents, Seriously... if you take a map and cut out the current continents, though imperfectly, they connect together.

You cannot SERIOUSLY believe that the continents floated THAT far apart in 4500 years and we have no scientific evidence of it? Quite the contrary, we KNOW by current measurements of the continental drift that it took MILLIONS of years... But I guess God made it all do it really fast, just to trick us into thinking this planet is millions of years old... right?

[This message has been edited by 8Ball (edited 07-24-2011).]

That was one of my earliest questions - why would this God lie to us. It's only a test if you know it's a test.

Turns out, we are the ones that ran off half-cocked with something that had nothing to do with us.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 07-24-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: Umm, thankfully, someone posted a link about the dinosaurs in the Bible. Yes they're in there. Look at Job 40 till the end. Regarding the continents, Seriously... if you take a map and cut out the current continents, though imperfectly, they connect together. And just because you don't believe in eternal damnation, doesn't make it untrue. I guess you're going to learn the hard way. But I promise you, that what I told you is for real. And my words will be vindicated when you die.

Oh **** ...you got me. I read that link. Three animals with loose descriptions, translated, kind of sound like anything that walks this planet without fur. And apparently the t-rex breathed fire. Hell, I'll give you the t-rex breathing fire. Straight up, its yours. It's not like I can go to a zoo and look at one.

All you need to do right now to redeem yourself here is say it. Say. "I don't know" Admit that you don't know, and can't explain the following problems:

1. Age of the planet. Scholars believe that the events of Adam and Eve occured some 6000 years ago. All evidence from science points to it being much older..by a few billion years.
2. Dinosaurs. Earth had 'em, and the bible is dubious on the subject
3. And here today...Noah's ark *may* have been a solution to a flooding problem, but we don't know how all animals on the planet made it to the ark, and how all occupants survived.

But you have to stop trying to make up answers. God is not the staples 'easy' button.

You are telling me, honestly, that you believe the continents drifted 1000's of miles in 4500 years? Can I put a speedometer on Africa and clock it on the track?

And don't talk to me about eternal damnation. You think one way and good for ya, but you don't know jack, and yelling louder isn't going to make you any smarter on the subject.

Now that he's licking his wounds...we can continue.

Regarding the original post. Those pictures are bullshit. No boat, halfway up a mountain is going to have the wood intact after 4000 years. I do like how they include straw in the photo. It's like Noah was there yesterday!

I don't know what they found up the mountain, but it wasn't an ark.

If they want to prove that is Noah's Ark, get me 27,000 DNA samples from it.... It SHOULD be soaked in ancient excrement...

quote Originally posted by Gridlock: Oh **** ...you got me. I read that link. Three animals with loose descriptions, translated, kind of sound like anything that walks this planet without fur. And apparently the t-rex breathed fire. Hell, I'll give you the t-rex breathing fire. Straight up, its yours. It's not like I can go to a zoo and look at one. All you need to do right now to redeem yourself here is say it. Say. "I don't know" Admit that you don't know, and can't explain the following problems: 1. Age of the planet. Scholars believe that the events of Adam and Eve occured some 6000 years ago. All evidence from science points to it being much older..by a few billion years. 2. Dinosaurs. Earth had 'em, and the bible is dubious on the subject 3. And here today...Noah's ark *may* have been a solution to a flooding problem, but we don't know how all animals on the planet made it to the ark, and how all occupants survived. But you have to stop trying to make up answers. God is not the staples 'easy' button. You are telling me, honestly, that you believe the continents drifted 1000's of miles in 4500 years? Can I put a speedometer on Africa and clock it on the track? And don't talk to me about eternal damnation. You think one way and good for ya, but you don't know jack, and yelling louder isn't going to make you any smarter on the subject. Now that he's licking his wounds...we can continue. Regarding the original post. Those pictures are bullshit. No boat, halfway up a mountain is going to have the wood intact after 4000 years. I do like how they include straw in the photo. It's like Noah was there yesterday! I don't know what they found up the mountain, but it wasn't an ark.

----1) Actually, I believe the continents drifted apart during the time of the flood.

----2) There is no evidence that the earth is that old. It's subjective, it cannot be.

----3) Regarding the dionsaurs again, remember the main theme of the Bible is redemption and salvation. Dinosaurs are only casually mentioned in a few spots.

----4) Regarding the animals getting on the ark... it's all of God, and it will forever be all of God.

----5) I'm not licking any wounds

----6) The fire is stoked and will be awaiting your arrival

This is one of those threads that's gonna end up being a LOT of fun reading while drunk.

Maybe all the continents moved during of after the flood

I have theory that the Altantisarians were the ones who helped gather all the animals and helped him build the boat. Then, as the flood waters came, Noah told them all that they forgot one animal, (the elusive snipe), and as they all ran off in different directions to catch two of them, Noah closed up the boat and started singing Smashmouth, with his fingers and his
Thumb and the shape of an "L" on his forehead...

quote Originally posted by theBDub: I misunderstood your post, Boon. I thought it was a jab at him. Yes, I did think it was very uncharacteristic of you.

Fair enough.
Glad we could at least clear that up.

1985FieroGT,

I wish i could have your utterly BLIND devotion... Ahh but things like Logic and Science get in the way.....
Oh no wait.. I prefer to be informed.

There is PLENTY of scientific PROOF that the Earth IS Billions of years old... You just refuse to accept it.
There is also PROOF that the continental drift took place over millions of years.. you just choose to ignore it.

But whatever helps you cope with the fact that in the grand scheme of things.. We mean absolutely nothing. We are but a teeny tiny speck, in a teeny tiny galaxy in the great expanse of space.

quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: This is one of those threads that's gonna end up being a LOT of fun reading while drunk. Maybe all the continents moved during of after the flood I have theory that the Altantisarians were the ones who helped gather all the animals and helped him build the boat. Then, as the flood waters came, Noah told them all that they forgot one animal, (the elusive snipe), and as they all ran off in different directions to catch two of them, Noah closed up the boat and started singing Smashmouth, with his fingers and his Thumb and the shape of an "L" on his forehead...

LOL!!! Hey! It is as good an explanation as any of them!

[This message has been edited by 8Ball (edited 07-24-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 8Ball: But whatever helps you cope with the fact that in the grand scheme of things.. We mean absolutely nothing. We are but a teeny tiny speck, in a teeny tiny galaxy in the great expanse of space.

I close my eyes, only for a moment, and the moment's gone.
All my dreams, pass before my eyes, a curiosity.
Dust in the wind, all they are is dust in the wind.

Same old song, just a drop of water in an endless sea.
All we do, crumbles to the ground, though we refuse to see.
Dust in the wind, All we are is dust in the wind.

Don't hang on, nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky.
It slips away, and all your money won't another minute buy.

Dust in the wind, All we are is dust in the wind

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 07-25-2011).]

So-crates.

quote Originally posted by TK: So-crates.

"Wyld Stallyn's rule!"



Be excellent to eachother.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg:

"Because there's bugger all down here on Earth!!!"
Sums this topic up...

[This message has been edited by 8Ball (edited 07-25-2011).]

Jesus was an anti goverment moderate,,who cared deeply for all , his father is very conservative,a right wing militant who believes deeply in revenge !!

Whom here came from Primordial slime pond scum ?? you are !!

You know in your heart who the good are ,it aint the pond people

I found no good enemies

I find it interesting what some people will believe. There's people ridiculing anyone believing in "adult fairy-tails" about the world being created by a supreme being. Yet they are so quick to believe that life evolved from amino acids randomly forming DNA, or whatever the current theory is (they change often). I had a chemistry professor who was talking about proteins. They are a complex chain of amino acids, and not only that, but they can fold in nearly endless combinations, and only the right one will work for any good in the body. He talked about that statistically the amount of time it would take for the protein to find the right shape would take longer than the current guess of life existing on earth. And that's just one protein. Then he goes on to say amazing it is that everything worked out to evolve properly. Really? You believe that but it's out of the realm that the earth is created? Science very much is a religion. And an ever changing one too. Just look at the medical field. It flip flops constantly on what is healthy and what is not. And at one point, scientists believed the earth was flat. Science is really finding mathematical models to fit the physical world. Once you seem to know one model, you read about someone who uses more advanced math to create a more accurate model to the more precise degree. And it keeps going. Think newtons' laws are fact? They're not. They fall apart at the extremes of size and speed. Bring in quantum physics. Etc. etc. Science is every bit as much of a religion as any other religion out there, only no one wants to call it that. All I know is that the bible hasn't changed for close to 2000 years, and it's dang accurate. My faith saves me. Does yours? If yes, good for you. If no, maybe you should look for something else...(<<< That's a suggestion, not a threat)

With anything, if you want to learn it, read about it. If you want to learn about science, read textbooks and scientific publications. If you want to learn about Christianity, read the bible. I think someone asked where does the Bible mention dinosaurs. Read it and find out. I've had textbooks that I've gone through in a semester that were bigger than the Bible. It's not that long of a read. And you just might learn something!

Einstein's white hole theory would explain the universe being billions of years old yet only being thousands of years old.

I was thinking the same thing through this thread about science and how it is taken at it's word. There are areas of "science" that truly are as much assumption and belief as the stories in the bible are. Not everything pushed forward by science is provable through the scientific method, without some assumptions (beliefs) taken on faith. Evolution is but one of these areas. Heck, even Darwin himself left his theory open to the possibility of it being wrong, particularly if future discoveries of fossil records did not reveal evidence of species evolving through intermediary steps. We now have those records, and the fossil records do struggle to really show any species "evolving" from one lower form to a higher form.

The global warming issue is a little easier to see the aspects of faith in science, and a little more known on this forum. It is easy to twist and display science in a way to prove something to be real which may not be so, because so many people in society these days accept science as a faith.

quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: Building a boat that large would be a challenge. But, How did they collect (and feed) all those animals? Penguins Polar bears tortoises all the other non-aquatic life? How long would it take to even name every single animals let alone travelling around the entire world to collect them and put them on the boat? Also, how did all the vegetation survive? I try to be open minded, and not too critical of these who strictly follow a religion, but contemplating the fact that there are adults who take stories such as this one as being 100% accurate make me cringe. I know i'm ignorant, but wow, it's astounding how ignorant some people are,and actively chose to remain. They're free to do so, but it's sad. Some would say the same about me. So be it.

Research the pro arguments and not just the anti arguments.

"The account of Noah and the Ark is one of the most widely known events in the history of mankind. Unfortunately, like other Bible accounts, it is often taken as a mere fairy tale.
….
The dimensions of the Ark are convincing for two reasons: the proportions are like that of a modern cargo ship, and it is about as large as a wooden ship can be built. The cubit gives us a good indication of size.1 With the cubit’s measurement, we know that the Ark must have been at least 450 feet (137 m) long, 75 feet (23 m) wide, and 45 feet (14 m) high. In the Western world, wooden sailing ships never got much longer than about 330 feet (100 m), yet the ancient Greeks built vessels at least this size 2,000 years earlier. China built huge wooden ships in the 1400s that may have been as large as the Ark.
…
Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you, to keep them alive (Genesis 6:20).
Juveniles of even the largest land animals do not present a size problem, and, being young, they have their full breeding life ahead of them. Noah wouldn’t have taken the largest animals onto the Ark; it is more likely he took juveniles aboard the Ark to repopulate the earth after the Flood was over. These younger animals also require less space, less food, and have less waste.
…
The Ark did not need to carry every kind of animal—nor did God command it. It carried only air-breathing, land-dwelling animals, creeping things, and winged animals such as birds.
…
In the book Noah’s Ark: A Feasibility Study4, creationist researcher John Woodmorappe suggests that, at most, 16,000 animals were all that were needed to preserve the created kinds that God brought into the Ark.
…water came from two sources: below the earth and above the earth. Evidently, the source for water below the ground was in great subterranean pools, or “fountains” of fresh water, which were broken open by volcanic and seismic (earthquake) activity.
Where Did All the Water Go?
Simply put, the water from the Flood is in the oceans and seas we see today. Three-quarters of the earth’s surface is covered with water. As even secular geologists observe, it does appear that the continents were at one time “together” and not separated by the vast oceans of today. The forces involved in the Flood were certainly sufficient to change all of this.
The earth’s crust has massive amounts of layered sedimentary rock, sometimes miles (kilometers) deep! These layers of sand, soil, and material—mostly laid down by water—were once soft like mud, but they are now hard stone. Encased in these sedimentary layers are billions of dead things (fossils of plants and animals) buried very quickly. The evidence all over the earth is staring everyone in the face"

http://www.answersingenesis...ally-a-flood-and-ark

I would love somebody to explain to me why, when Heaven is a wondrous and happy place, and God forgives 'our human sins' without compunction at the pearly Gates if we 'repent'.....WHY are we so distraught at somebody's death?Surely, they are going to the eternal LIFE, of beauty, peace,health and immortality? WHY ARE WE SAD at their passing through that gate? Surely we should be rejoicing at their Eternal Life in Heaven?
BECAUSE WE ARE SELFISH. We don't want them to go, because WE want them to stay. Will we be forgiven that sin too?.
I am working on going to 'Heaven' when I die. I believe 'Heaven' or 'Hell' are the state of mind we die in: whether we KNOW in our heart of hearts we have done the best we can in this Life. )I do my best. I will be my own judge as to whether I die happy or miserable. I do not tolerate 'opinions' about my 'goodness' from people equally as flawed as myself.
And how did 'Life' begin? All living creatures are electrical impulses. When the electricity has gone, so hqve we. In an instant. So...why can't Loife have started in the same way? Just one bolt of lightning hitting the right chemical equation is all it would take. Lightning is a natural force. Chemical reactions are a natural force. The two combined at the right time in the right place, and Life, in some form or another, began. Just like switching on a lightbulb, The contacts are there, the wire is there, and the filament is there. All it needs to start working is electricity. Which abounds in Nature everywhere.
I don't need to know any more,because NATURE is MY Gpod, and Nature is everywhere. Nobody can deny that. If everybody could accept it, then there would be no more pointless arguments, discussions, Wars or whatever. Open your eyes, and see God, wherever you look. Nobody can deny the existence of my God, because we can all see it.
Nick
PS...MY God doesn't need people walking around in Jackboots, and being rude to others. But then, there are those who would feel compelled to do so ANYWAY. I ignore that type of person when it comes to 'Religion'. Because they know nothing, just wnat to dictate, and get offended when somebody doesn't agree. And they are the same stupid people who will now come back and say 'BUT WHO MADE THE LIGHTNING???
The answer? NOBODY. WHat a futile and pointless argument

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 07-25-2011).]

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: I would love somebody to explain to me why, when Heaven is a wondrous and happy place, and God forgives 'our human sins' without compunction at the pearly Gates if we 'repent'.....WHY are we so distraught at somebody's death?Surely, they are going to the eternal LIFE, of beauty, peace,health and immortality? WHY ARE WE SAD at their passing through that gate? Surely we should be rejoicing at their Eternal Life in Heaven?

If they were a Christian, I'm not sad. I weep at funerals when I have a feeling that they didn't make it. Yes, this includes family members that I don't think made it.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: I am working on going to 'Heaven' when I die. I believe 'Heaven' or 'Hell' are the state of mind we die in: whether we KNOW in our heart of hearts we have done the best we can in this Life. )I do my best. I will be my own judge as to whether I die happy or miserable. I do not tolerate 'opinions' about my 'goodness' from people equally as flawed as myself.

It's nothing you can work at... you can't reach Heaven on your own. You NEED to follow Jesus with everything to "make it". It's not about whether you were good or bad, it's whether or not you were forgiven. We are all flawed, and nobody can tell you about your own goodness, but God is an absolute moral rock to compare to, and if you are anything lower than that, you are a sinner. That's all that's important.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: I don't need to know any more,because NATURE is MY Gpod, and Nature is everywhere. Nobody can deny that. If everybody could accept it, then there would be no more pointless arguments, discussions, Wars or whatever. Open your eyes, and see God, wherever you look. Nobody can deny the existence of my God, because we can all see it. Nick PS...MY God doesn't need people walking around in Jackboots, and being rude to others. But then, there are those who would feel compelled to do so ANYWAY. I ignore that type of person when it comes to 'Religion'. Because they know nothing, just wnat to dictate, and get offended when somebody doesn't agree. And they are the same stupid people who will now come back and say 'BUT WHO MADE THE LIGHTNING??? The answer? NOBODY. WHat a futile and pointless argument

I can see my God as well, in nature. I think you've seen Him around.

damn...got here a bit late.....

anyways, doesnt isnt Noa spelled Noah? or is Noa just a more proper spelling, due to endless translation, and loss due to story having spent more time being passed by word of mouth than thru actual text?

bah - doesnt matter - onwards: does the Earth actually contain enough water to flood the whole thing "Waterworld" style?

floods are by no means unique. how many floods with heavy impact can you ring up in JUST the last 5 years? we've had many sequential days of rain just this spring in the USA. floods happen. ALOT. everywhere. add to that the perspective of "the world" in context with the story. I have no reason whatsoever to dismiss the very easy chance that someone DID in fact build a boat, and put onboard animals, and float away during an epic regional flood. didnt need to have 2 of every animal if the whole world isnt actually impacted. lol - penguins - NICE. we have nutz that even today predict such scenarios, and go to crazy ends based on them. suicide cults. doomsday soothsayers. and, I am sure there were "these kinds" back then as well. add to that the "even a stopped watch is right twice a day". no reason whatsoever to think that the framework of the story didn't happen as described in the context of the time. add some dramatic storytelling, to make it a "behave or else" story, and its all set to bepassed on by word of mouth and be twisted & refined until FINALLY put to paper how many hundreds years & how many generations after the fact? heck - this story may have orginally been some farmer who had his barn float away in a tsunami.

I don't see many "religious" people pushing their stuff on me, or the people I know.

People are gonna believe what they do, especially as they get older.


I just tell the youngins when they ask me stuff :

Make the most of your life. Do good and be kind. Keep your mind open, question EVERYTHING, especially stuff people seem to be very very eager to have you accept/believe, and be wary of people who get mad when you don't immediately agree (buy in/fall for) with what they're sayin' (selling). Don't smoke, drink too much, and heaven's sake, EAT YOUR PEAS!!!!!
Forget trying to change adult's minds. You gotta focus on the young, don't force them, enlighten them.9I know most religions say that's the WORST thing to do - tell them abvout 'false' failths) Provide them with KNOWLEDGE. What people used to believe long ago, and what they still do... the teachings and metaphors behind the words, what we have come to understand as we have reduced our ignorance of how the way the universe 'works'.

In the end, there's no reason why anyone need to 'poo-poo' Religion. Some will believe in "x", others will not. It's good to be able to have a believe without anger towards others who belivee or don't. it's gets frustrating at times, though...

What kills me is this --- Don't pretend you're something so THEY believe, and then when they get older, they discover you're full of S***. It's bad enough we do Santa (and I admit, I'm one of that did this)

I know of soooo many Atheists who have baptised their kids. Disgraceful. They all say they do it because they don't want other people to look down, or whatever. I'd be REALLY ticked off if my parents did that. My mom was a Catholic, sang in the Choir, I was an altarboy, I prayed and believed. Till I started experiencing more of the world, and began speaking with priests and brothers and other men of various 'cloths' .
My friend was baptised when he was a teenager, and was confirmed later in life. it's not like if you don't baptize your baby, it can never grow up and decide for itself...

Oh yeah, I know, I know... if it dies, it goes to hell if it wasn't baptized.

When Lucifer builds his army, there's gonna be a LOT of little pissed off hell-babies lining up to piddle on the face of the Almighty.

God's "Plan". if this Catholic stuff IS real, I can't wait to hear what His plan was/is all about. Seems that it wasn't well thought out beforehand. (but that's probably due to my limited capacity to comprehend his "Plan")

*sighs*

God help us all.

When I was a Geology major at IU - Bloomington, I learned some interesting things about "Plate Tectonics" and "Geological Strata".

Indeed, the contenents were once conncted and the drifted apart over time - lots of time - they are still moving.

A portion of South America actually belongs to West Africa - it is exactly the same from a geologic analysis standpoint.

There is proof of a world-wide flood in the geological record, a thin layer of fine white sand that occurs everywhere in the geologic strata at the same age level.

The timing of the Flood also fits very nicely with the shifting of the Earth's rotational axis - an event that has occurred several times since the formation of the planet. The rotational shift models indicate that the change occurs suddenly, rapidly, with little warning other than increased volcanic activity, and would literally cause the oceans to sweep over the continents.

If people look to see how the Bible and Science actuall compliment each other, it becomes very clear (at least it has to me) that Creation and Evolution are not opposing theories, but instead show how the simplistic stories of the Bible are true and are proven by the Earth's geological record.

I know a guy whos dead serious in believing the Earth is only a few thousand years old. He believes dinosaurs only died off just before the Egyptians came into power. He believes there is no such thing as evolution...everything is the same as it was when created. He thinks were as different from apes as we are from fish. I have an aunt who is positive space shots like the shuttle and satellites are the cause of hurricanes and tornados. Some people are just really dumb, but ill let them think whatever they want to keep happy.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I know a guy whos dead serious in believing the Earth is only a few thousand years old. He believes dinosaurs only died off just before the Egyptians came into power. He believes there is no such thing as evolution...everything is the same as it was when created. He thinks were as different from apes as we are from fish. I have an aunt who is positive space shots like the shuttle and satellites are the cause of hurricanes and tornados. Some people are just really dumb, but ill let them think whatever they want to keep happy.

I have no problem with "simple folk may think simple things". Most of us draw lines and say "OK, That's as far as I wanna Go" (or "know") (or CAN go, with what we 'know')

I 'm not thrilled when people in power are disturbingly ignorant. Forget who it was , but there was a guy in some office that believed in spontaneous generation (that rats and bugs come FROM corpses, etc)

[This message has been edited by FieroRumor (edited 07-25-2011).]

quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: I know of soooo many Atheists who have baptised their kids. Disgraceful. They all say they do it because they don't want other people to look down, or whatever. I'd be REALLY ticked off if my parents did that. My mom was a Catholic, sang in the Choir, I was an altarboy, I prayed and believed. Till I started experiencing more of the world, and began speaking with priests and brothers and other men of various 'cloths' . My friend was baptised when he was a teenager, and was confirmed later in life. it's not like if you don't baptize your baby, it can never grow up and decide for itself... Oh yeah, I know, I know... if it dies, it goes to hell if it wasn't baptized. .

Many people of faith today began as what alot of people call "Catholics". I wouldn't let them discourage you. You seem to be a think for yourself-er I am like that as well. Just keep digging and don't just dig in the same places all the time. And all along realize your motives.


"Question: "What does the Bible say about infant baptism?"

"Answer: There is much confusion about baptism in the various Christian denominations. However, this is not a result of the Bible presenting a confusing message on baptism. The Bible is abundantly clear of what baptism is, who it is for, and what it accomplishes. In the Bible, only believers who had placed their faith in Christ were baptized - as a public testimony of their faith and identification with Him (Acts 2:38; Romans 6:3-4). Water baptism by immersion is a step of obedience after faith in Christ. It is a proclamation of faith in Christ, a statement of submission to Him, and an identification with His death, burial, and resurrection.
Baptism does not save a person. It does not matter if you were baptized by immersion, pouring, or sprinkling - if you have not first trusted in Christ for salvation, baptism (no matter the method) is meaningless and useless. If Christian parents wish to dedicate their child to Christ, then a baby dedication service is entirely appropriate. However, even if infants are dedicated to the Lord, when they grow up they will still have to make a personal decision to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved."
http://www.gotquestions.org/infant-baptism.html

Scienc is nothing but best guess. I believe in GOD. Thats it. If you don't so what. I believe in the Bible. If you don't so what. If you don't like it "so what".
Plain and simple you will never win a religous debate or a political one. "SO WHAT" get on with your life.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Be excellent to eachother.

Never saw those movies, but I like that motto.

quote Originally posted by olejoedad: When I was a Geology major at IU - Bloomington, I learned some interesting things about "Plate Tectonics" and "Geological Strata". Indeed, the contenents were once conncted and the drifted apart over time - lots of time - they are still moving. A portion of South America actually belongs to West Africa - it is exactly the same from a geologic analysis standpoint. There is proof of a world-wide flood in the geological record, a thin layer of fine white sand that occurs everywhere in the geologic strata at the same age level. The timing of the Flood also fits very nicely with the shifting of the Earth's rotational axis - an event that has occurred several times since the formation of the planet. The rotational shift models indicate that the change occurs suddenly, rapidly, with little warning other than increased volcanic activity, and would literally cause the oceans to sweep over the continents. If people look to see how the Bible and Science actuall compliment each other, it becomes very clear (at least it has to me) that Creation and Evolution are not opposing theories, but instead show how the simplistic stories of the Bible are true and are proven by the Earth's geological record.

But when did the Flood happen? Before people? Yes, there are floods, but "world wide" floods are something we believe in, as we can see the entire world. Back in biblical times, the world was much smaller and a "local" flood would be seen as "world wide". The Bible is relative. Why isn't there talk of the other continents or of other tribes.... because the "world" was very small to the writers and they didn't know of the existence of other places. The bible is relative.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: But when did the Flood happen? Before people? Yes, there are floods, but "world wide" floods are something we believe in, as we can see the entire world. Back in biblical times, the world was much smaller and a "local" flood would be seen as "world wide". The Bible is relative. Why isn't there talk of the other continents or of other tribes.... because the "world" was very small to the writers and they didn't know of the existence of other places. The bible is relative.

Sure we all have different perspectives thats what makes things relative to us. I suppose for some it depends which mountaintops were covered with water. How many can be without the rest of the world being under water, where are the tallest mountains in relation to where people were? Doesn't mean that theres isn't evidence there though, and evidence is supposed to be the stuff scientists usually love.

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There is correlation between the time of the axis shift, the geological evidence (sand layer) and the timeline of the story of Noah's Ark in Genesis.

If you want to know more, research it yourself, I don't have time, nor am I responsible for your education.

quote Originally posted by olejoedad: There is correlation between the time of the axis shift, the geological evidence (sand layer) and the timeline of the story of Noah's Ark in Genesis. If you want to know more, research it yourself, I don't have time, nor am I responsible for your education.

just trying to picture what might be the "timeline" clues for Noah?

quote Originally posted by bristowb: I believe in GOD. Thats it. If you don't so what. I believe in the Bible. If you don't so what. If you don't like it "so what". Plain and simple you will never win a religous debate or a political one. "SO WHAT" get on with your life.

Now that's a good response!!

Every major religion has a story related to a major catastrophic flood in their tenets.....Yes, even Islam....we read the Bible too, you know. Keep in mind that most of the prominent religions were "founded" in, by and large, the same geographical region (what is now known as the Middle East) with the possible exception of Buddhism and Hinduism....which, for some reason, ALSO have a flood legend in their writings. It's quite feasible that the flood "legend" has been passed not only from generation to generation but also floated (as it were) from religion to religion. There's tangible evidence that areas now arid were once covered with water....the deserts of the Southwest, Asia's Gobi and Africa's Sahara for examples all show signs via fossilized remains of having been under water at some point.

I don't doubt that the flood actually did occur. Whether the story of Noah and the ark is true or allegorical is still, IMHO, a matter of individual interpretation and one's belief in the writings as indeed truth.

Just my .02.

[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 07-26-2011).]

My own personal theory Never seen this expounded anywhere before in my Life, but then I never had the internet to search for the thought

I believe it possible that the 'Flood' was in fact, the reverse,
I believe it quite possible that the planet Earth was originally some 25-35% smaller, and probably a flaming comet.. The Earth has a molten, white hot core. The cool outer crust was caused by the flaming Comet (Earth) being rapidly cooled in a short period of time, by coming into contact with another comet which was possibly 10 times larger, and comprised of 100% water. This cooled the Comet Earth so rapidly, that the 'water' comet was completely obliterated, and as the Earth cooled, the water vapor created was drawn to the Earth's surface, by its gravity field and condensed to completely cover the Earth. Thus, the Earth became a planet with a redhot core, and completely cool surface covered in water. As time went on, the inner molten core began to generate more and more heat, which eventully caused the molten core to erupt through the fairly deep water 'jacket', throwing up vast areas of 'land mass'. As this happened, there were great fissures caused in the Earth's crust, where the land masses now above water level had once been.These became our seas and oceans. All life that had existed on Earth whilst it was still covered by the water was thrown up with the land masses. Some were dead, and some had survived. They gradually evolved from being 100% aquatic, and learned to adapt to living on 'Land'. They continued to evolve, and eventually became Earth's land inhabitants, whilst those who had remained below water level remained there.
This is why ALL living creatures originally came from the sea. It also means that, because the water on Earth remains pretty much constant, and the Earth had expanded by up to 30% , there is not enough water on Earth any more to completely cover it, as in a giant 'Flood'.
Try this experiment, which I did years ago I took a football that was not fully inflated, and covered it in mud, and let it dry. I then pumped the ball up, and where the mud was stuck to the surface of the ball, cracks and fissures appeared. Some of the mud fell off (into space', which then joined up and formed the Moon??), and what was left were separate 'land masses' still stuck to the ball. Our continents and islands as they are now And that is why some continents have coastlines which appear like they follow the form of adjacent lland mass coastlines.
Move over Einstein..your position has just been usurped by some nutcase living in Spain
Nick

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quote Originally posted by fierofetish: My own personal theory Never seen this expounded anywhere before in my Life, but then I never had the internet to search for the thought ....the Earth became a planet with a redhot core, and completely cool surface covered in water

Well, it was water covered

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. GENESIS 1 1-2

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 07-26-2011).]

So...where is the bit about how it all happened then? God hovering...THAT was their explanation I guess. NOT very convincing, IMHO...but I believe mine is
It would also explain something else too. The 'water comet' was the only one in existence in the Universe. Perhaps it had attracted all the water that might have been on other planets, leaving them dry, because their gravity was not strong enough to retain their water. But the gravity field of Earth was precisely right, to be able to retain the water. And this might also go some way to explaining as to why traces of water have been found on other planets.
I win
Nick

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: So...where is the bit about how it all happened then? God hovering...THAT was their explanation I guess. NOT very convincing, IMHO...but I believe mine is It would also explain something else too. The 'water comet' was the only one in existence in the Universe. Perhaps it had attracted all the water that might have been on other planets, leaving them dry, because their gravity was not strong enough to retain their water. But the gravity field of Earth was precisely right, to be able to retain the water. And this might also go some way to explaining as to why traces of water have been found on other planets. I win Nick

well, it says he spoke and it happened. Says thats what caused things to happen..didn't say how it happened.

quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: Jesus was an anti goverment moderate,,who cared deeply for all , his father is very conservative,a right wing militant who believes deeply in revenge !!

Geez, sounds like Stan is describing me and my dad.