Originally posted by Flamberge: ... mostly I think ifsomeone wants to be gay, go for it.
The problem is that, at least as far as I understand the subject, being gay isn't for the most part something that someone want's to be, it's something that they just are. The word "want" implies choice, which in turn implies voluntary choice, and it's always easier to challenge someone on their choice than it is to challenge them on what they are inherently. It'd be like saying someone chose to be black, white, female, male, etc.
That is not what I wrote nor is it a logical conclusion to draw from my post.
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I had a long post typed up that pretty much refuted everything you said, but then realized that it'd be more useful talking to a bag of hammers. So that's exactly what I'm going to do.
Suffice to say, however, you're wrong on every count, every point, in that post. Look it up for yourself...
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07:26 PM
Flamberge Member
Posts: 4268 From: Terra Sancta, TX Registered: Oct 2001
The problem is that, at least as far as I understand the subject, being gay isn't for the most part something that someone want's to be, it's something that they just are. The word "want" implies choice, which in turn implies voluntary choice, and it's always easier to challenge someone on their choice than it is to challenge them on what they are inherently. It'd be like saying someone chose to be black, white, female, male, etc.
A good point if you subscribe the idea that it is not a choice. (I have not seen compelling scientific evidence either way.)
The problem is that, at least as far as I understand the subject, being gay isn't for the most part something that someone want's to be, it's something that they just are. The word "want" implies choice, which in turn implies voluntary choice, and it's always easier to challenge someone on their choice than it is to challenge them on what they are inherently. It'd be like saying someone chose to be black, white, female, male, etc.
A good point if you subscribe the idea that it is not a choice. (I have not seen compelling scientific evidence either way.)
Did you choose to be attracted to women? Not questioning your manhood, but if you chose to like women, there was at least some small debate in your head as to what your sexual orientation is.
This never happened to me, I have always naturally been attracted to women. From the gay people I know and am friends with, quite a few over the years, not one indicated any choice in the matter at all. They realized one day the same sex did it for them, usually between the ages of 11 and 17... the only choice they made was when to come out of the closet.
[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 07-08-2011).]
Your previous post did not fully address what I asked. Your evasiveness caused me to ask direct questions.
Since you don't identify yourself as a leftist, then you should not be offended by comments directed at them. The dog that yelps is the one that got hit with the stick.
I apologize for causing your nervous breakdown. I will try to be more delicate next time when discussion things with you.
No, seriously, I feel great- really! Its wonderful being able to tell someone you have almost the least amount of respect for in the world they are an ass clown . Its very cathartic, I think I will do it more often. Thanks for being there for me.
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Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Change her diaper a few times, then walk a mile in those shoes, tough guy. Oh wait. She can't walk or change her own diaper, either.
Did you choose to be attracted to women? Not questioning your manhood, but if you chose to like women, there was at least some small debate in your head as to what your sexual orientation is.
This never happened to me, I have always naturally been attracted to women. From the gay people I know and am friends with, quite a few over the years, not one indicated any choice in the matter at all. They realized one day the same sex did it for them, usually between the ages of 11 and 17... the only choice they made was when to come out of the closet.
Yes but like our earlier exchange (which has stayed respectful - thank you) this is just anecdotal evidence.
I personally know two women who decided they were lesbians for more than 3 years each (one was a lesbian for 6) who are now married to men and have kids. No mention of their time as lesbians, no support for lesbian organizations (though to be fair no animosity towards them either.) So what happened to them? Were they born gay or not? If so, then why go back into the closet? If not, and they were indeed going through a phase or making a choice, doesn't that open up the possibility that there are at least *some* other people who profess to be homosexual that just might not be?
Using this same logic I could say I was born with faith in God. I've always had it, I never really made a choice, for me belief has always just come naturally to me. But many people who argue against religion would say: where is the scientific proof? So I ask here: Where is the scientific studies, carefully executed and correctly vetted, that shows without a doubt that homosexual behavior is a genetic trait or precondition? I think saying a gay person is born that way is insulting, like they have a disease or something.
By the way I think it is a tragedy when a person, gay or straight, gets assaulted or worse because of their beliefs. I suppose one of the reasons why I found it hard to believe earlier in the thread that being harassed is routine for gay people is because I would never think to harass them myself, and don't associate with people who would think harming another person is okay, so maybe I'm naive in that regard.
The gay people I know seem to live pretty regular lives, not being constantly harassed. (They are all in Denver, so I'll admit to not knowing any personally since I've been back in Texas.)
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08:20 PM
WhiteDevil88 Member
Posts: 8518 From: Coastal California Registered: Mar 2007
I am confused as hell. I am all for same sex rights but this is out there. California a few years back was pushing to ban the pledge of alegance because it bothered atheist. Now they are taking something that truly has been a religious based fight and shove it into the schools. I understand that the government has gotten involved to help there rights but wow there comes a point to stop it. I have a strong homesexul family base and still think this needs to stop. I mean there are so many views on it how can you teach it. Some feel its a choice others feel its a genetic basses. I am not going to voice my views on it but I am gonna say is fix our damn economy before passing more unneeded laws.
Maybe this can help you out. "California" is not pushing any single agenda. "California" is not the identity of a single person or school of thought. There are over 32 million individuals in the State of California, each with their own values and agenda. So you may see individuals espouse strong beliefs that are contrary to the values of other Californians. So when you say that "Caliofornia...was pushing to ban", that is an inaccurate and misleading statement. It may have been an elected official, or have the signatures required to put an initiative on the ballot. That does not mean that it has the support of all Californians, or even enough to vote it into law.
Yes but like our earlier exchange (which has stayed respectful - thank you) this is just anecdotal evidence.
I always try to show respect for those who want to talk and not insult. You have never shown me anything BUT respect, why would I do any different just because we disagree? I always give what I get, and in some cases some people have earned my ire.
Maybe it is only descriptive of our own two lives and whether we made a choice to be gay or not, but with those I have talked to it is overwhelmingly a feeling, a calling, an attraction.. I dont know anyone who would choose to deal with what gay people in America have to deal with.. thats just me, though, so yes, anecdotal.
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I personally know two women who decided they were lesbians for more than 3 years each (one was a lesbian for 6) who are now married to men and have kids. No mention of their time as lesbians, no support for lesbian organizations (though to be fair no animosity towards them either.) So what happened to them? Were they born gay or not? If so, then why go back into the closet? If not, and they were indeed going through a phase or making a choice, doesn't that open up the possibility that there are at least *some* other people who profess to be homosexual that just might not be?
Have you ever considered the only choice they were making was denying their true self? Some people absolutely have to experiment to find who they are, but in the end is it really a choice or just figuring out how you are already wired?
One thing I have considered is this.. do all people have to choose or no people at all have to choose to be gay to make it some kind of "according to hoyle" rule? What I mean to say is, what if only 10% actually chose to be gay, does that invalidate the 90% that made no choice as "They all choose".. I think not. Seldom in our world is anything black and white all or nothing. I expect it to be no different with homosexuality, either.
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I think saying a gay person is born that way is insulting, like they have a disease or something.
Maybe if I saw something wrong with being gay I would feel this way, but I grew up with an aunt who was a lesbian.. she never acted strange, out of the ordinary to us. Just human. (She made no choice, either, by the way.) Why would I ever think there was anything WRONG with her? I come from a diverse family .. multi racial, cultural, ethnic, religion and sexual orientation. We got just about one of everything at least. The diversity is wonderful, we all get along great. Nothing wrong with any of the gays I am friends or family with, I dont think I would ever consider anything wrong with them, but because of who they are to me with love and friendship, I only see what is right with them. Bias? Sure.. but they were hardly born with a disease.. they just developed differently.
Diseases have ill effects on your body... the only ill effects on your body being gay can have is being bashed for being one. I just dont see it as a disease if there is nothing debilitating or detrimental effecting you directly from your "condition" if thats the word I must use.
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By the way I think it is a tragedy when a person, gay or straight, gets assaulted or worse because of their beliefs. I suppose one of the reasons why I found it hard to believe earlier in the thread that being harassed is routine for gay people is because I would never think to harass them myself, and don't associate with people who would think harming another person is okay, so maybe I'm naive in that regard. The gay people I know seem to live pretty regular lives, not being constantly harassed. (They are all in Denver, so I'll admit to not knowing any personally since I've been back in Texas.)
Me too. I like women, but that does not mean I think those who are not hetero are less than human. They deserve every right you or I enjoy without fear of violence. They're human.. they are part of us. When we hurt them, we hurt ourselves.
Do they need gay-identifying history books? Nah. Is it the end of the world if California passes that bill? Nah. Its California, that whole state is fruit loops... shouldnt we just expect and accept it instead of futiley railing against it as non-californians? California is going to choose yeah or nay (i figure nay), without our arguments.. its their choice. Free country, their business, and all that. I think its a waste of money more than anything else. If they could get gay history books printed for free, I would probably care even less than I do now.
[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 07-08-2011).]
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09:01 PM
Flamberge Member
Posts: 4268 From: Terra Sancta, TX Registered: Oct 2001
I always try to show respect for those who want to talk and not insult. You have never shown me anything BUT respect, why would I do any different just because we disagree?
Some people cannot discuss these kind of topics without getting worked up. So it was worth pointing out that our debate has stayed cordial. I am guilty of getting worked up too. It is why I don't discuss my religion here. Because I know I am pushing the edge of becoming adversarial if I do, which just supports my thesis from earlier in the thread that homosexuality is very much like a religion. Belief/faith is there - and strong - and if people don't accept it or recognize their right to worship, they get upset. I would too. It's perfectly understandable. But because it is like a religion, I find it interesting that they keep trying to put it in the schools where it doesn't belong.
In any case, I've stated where I am coming from and don't have anything else to add to this discussion. Have a good weekend.
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09:13 PM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 9883 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
I had a long post typed up that pretty much refuted everything you said, but then realized that it'd be more useful talking to a bag of hammers. So that's exactly what I'm going to do.
Suffice to say, however, you're wrong on every count, every point, in that post. Look it up for yourself...
What a shame. Your long post refuting something that you don't understand would have been entertaining.
How about you cite the specific sentence from my post that your conclusion(s) are based on?
So now I'm part of your therapy. Whatever floats your boat. Call me every name you can think of calling me. Scream at the monitor if it makes you feel better.
Go ahead. I can take it.
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Originally posted by tbone42:
No, seriously, I feel great- really! Its wonderful being able to tell someone you have almost the least amount of respect for in the world they are an ass clown . Its very cathartic, I think I will do it more often. Thanks for being there for me.
some people have earned my ire.
