http://online.wsj.com/artic...361691165631366.html

The article is a book review of a book called "The War Against Girls."

The author finds that, since the 1970s, 173M girls worldwide, were aborted by families desiring boys. The moral implications of this are bad enough (and has always been my primary concern, as many of you know), and the situation calls PP's assertions that gender selection was not a purpose of abortion into question.

However, one of the conclusions is mind boggling: In certain countries, there are 120 to as many as 200+ men to each 100 women. Such societies tend to become militaristic and even unstable. China is among these nations.

I find myself agreeing with commenter Larry: "Demographers have known for centuries that hyper-male societies are very warlike. Nature produces more men because nature kills them quicker. But in societies where the male population is unnaturally elevated, that society becomes more militaristic I.e. Spartans. When we are talking about countries the size of China and India, this is a world threat. And to add to the equation, America has had an anti-boy attitude since the 60's, along with the glorification of homosexuality. When the hordes invade America, it won't be the women and girlie-guys defending this country. It will be the few remaining men left.
God bless us all."

Read and opine.

never pictured India as militaristic?
yes, certianly see it in China.
But, I do wonder WTF "anti-boy" attitude means?
and "glorifying" homosexuality?
Tho, I can understand if you are used to hiding homesexuality, having it out in the open may seem "glorified" to those "on the fence".

but - reproduction/female aquisition is at the root of everything. laws, g'ment, religion, etc.

and, the ugly spectre of population control

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: http://online.wsj.com/artic...361691165631366.html The article is a book review of a book called "The War Against Girls." The author finds that, since the 1970s, 173M girls worldwide, were aborted by families desiring boys. The moral implications of this are bad enough (and has always been my primary concern, as many of you know), and the situation calls PP's assertions that gender selection was not a purpose of abortion into question. However, one of the conclusions is mind boggling: In certain countries, there are 120 to as many as 200+ men to each 100 women. Such societies tend to become militaristic and even unstable. China is among these nations. I find myself agreeing with commenter Larry: "Demographers have known for centuries that hyper-male societies are very warlike. Nature produces more men because nature kills them quicker. But in societies where the male population is unnaturally elevated, that society becomes more militaristic I.e. Spartans. When we are talking about countries the size of China and India, this is a world threat. And to add to the equation, America has had an anti-boy attitude since the 60's, along with the glorification of homosexuality. When the hordes invade America, it won't be the women and girlie-guys defending this country. It will be the few remaining men left. God bless us all." Read and opine.

I've been reading about this for a few years now...

What I know is that we have a greater population of women here than we have men, and in China, they have a greater population of men than there are women.

The only positive is that in our culture here in America, women can and do fill the same roles that were historically only for men. So in that respect, I don't deny that we could, and that we WOULD pick up arms against invading nations, and succeed...





Honestly, I am very much against abortion... and this is part of what happens. I remember reading a story a year or so back about a guy who found literally a bag of infants that had been thrown into the river. It was horrendous. There were something like 12 or 13 infants in the bag, one of them was a boy (had malformations) and the rest of them were all girls. Some of them were actually several months old. Most of them were dead, but they were able to save a couple of them that had managed to survive. The bag with babies in it apparently floated to the shore, and a fisherman heard the cries. EDIT: This was in China... I didn't make that very clear.

Just horrific. When I see overweight, trashy, middle-aged, washed-up hippie women protesting with signs talking about women's rights for abortion, I want nothing more than to go over and punch them in the face.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 06-21-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: When the hordes invade America...

So its set in stone, then, we will be invaded by a horde?

quote Originally posted by tbone42: So its set in stone, then, we will be invaded by a horde?

It has been and always will be the reason this and other countries does everything it does.
To eliminate percieved threats to the statis quo from without, AND from within.

If we didn't see monsters in the shadows, we would have to invent them.
Nothing personal, just business.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: It has been and always will be the reason this and other countries does everything it does. To eliminate percieved threats to the statis quo from without, AND from within. If we didn't see monsters in the shadows, we would have to invent them. Nothing personal, just business.

I always thought the Chinese would want our hard-core big busty women, and they'd try to take us over one day when they no longer have nearly enough women... heh.

I've got a buddy from India who works with us, the guy is married, but he wants nothing more than a tall white woman with huge boobs... it's all he talks about.

Sure they (we, society) eliminate this chance at natural "diversity". Males and females being born naturally, even disabled being born naturally for that matter.
Then embrace other things they like to call diversity.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: ... The only positive is that in our culture here in America, women can and do fill the same roles that were historically only for men. So in that respect, I don't deny that we could, and that we WOULD pick up arms against invading nations, and succeed... ....

I don't believe that this is the case. Call me sexist, but there are some tasks that men are more suited for and others that women are more suited for. This is not 100%, as I'm sure that there are women who are far better survivalists and hunters than I am (by far), and there are men who, while not good mothers, are good nurturers, etc. In general, however, it takes more energy to make the average woman combat ready, and, I believe, that, psychologically, if we were allowed by the Liberal factions to see raw data, we'd find that men are still better equipped to take a life in a wartime situation and continue to do the job. Even more simply, it takes less to turn out a male soldier that can carry an 80# pack on his back for 50 miles than to turn out a female that can match the task within the same timeframe.

And tbone42, I didn't use the word "hordes," but, in principle, the case is made. A nation comprised of more than 20% of the world's population that is, in itself, 55% male, is a concern for a nation that is in ideologically opposition.

EDIT: Grammar

[This message has been edited by Patrick's Dad (edited 06-21-2011).]

Having lived in I can say the 2-1 ratio may not be enough.
Even at that there are sill a shortage of decent guys and more than plenty of available women.
Most of the guy are slime balls and are not marriage material, and many women would rather go it alone.
With the help of the net and one woman who had a very popular radio show, the women have emerged from being just door mats.

Read a story while there about her call in show.
One wife was force to cook for her husband and the lady he brought home for his nightly sex. She would often go outside the keep from hearing their sounds of passion.
Another wife's husband wouldn't let her have any pets, so she would catch flies to keep as pets.


On of the serious issues is girls who are orphaned, there is little hope for them.
The orphanages are way under funded and some go there only to die.
There was a British special that covered this called The Dieing Rooms.
Though many American are adopting them because they are so cute and sweet, and there is little red tape like we have here, still the amount barely makes a dent.
If I were younger I would have a house full of them, and a big old shot gun to keep the boys away.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I always thought the Chinese would want our hard-core big busty women, and they'd try to take us over one day when they no longer have nearly enough women... heh. I've got a buddy from India who works with us, the guy is married, but he wants nothing more than a tall white woman with huge boobs... it's all he talks about.

I betcha you can find a pile of "white guys" who just love the little tiny asian women too.
one of the strange things about what makes a member of the opposite sex attractive. and, one of the items is NOT being like "everybody else" or "exotic". That little thing drives ALOT of social forces - which includes racism.

From what I understand, the main reason for the preference for males is that many cultures have a dowry system that essentially forces many poorer families to bankrupt themselves when their daughter gets married. Personally, I think the root problem is with that concept.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: From what I understand, the main reason for the preference for males is that many cultures have a dowry system that essentially forces many poorer families to bankrupt themselves when their daughter gets married. Personally, I think the root problem is with that concept.

In China a boy is expected to care for his parents until they die, the girls once married take care of her husband's parents. No boy and a married daughter, you are in bad shape.

It is the norm that when you marry a girl and take her from her parents, you compensate them for the fine job they did raising her, and their loss of her. The amount is set by what they feel you can afford.
And no even dollar amount because certain numbers are considered lucky. So you will pay maybe 6,666 RMB.
On the day of the wedding you go to her house and take her, and pay your tab.
You pay to take their daughter, not the other way around.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: ..."glorification of homosexuality"?

Watch 5 minutes of MTV.

Prostitution will solve the problem.

quote Originally posted by Xyster: Watch 5 minutes of MTV.

Or "Glee," if you don't have cable.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I betcha you can find a pile of "white guys" who just love the little tiny asian women too. one of the strange things about what makes a member of the opposite sex attractive. and, one of the items is NOT being like "everybody else" or "exotic". That little thing drives ALOT of social forces - which includes racism.

I think the attraction to people who are different has to do with our genetic makeup since the inception.
It all had to do with nature making sure we survive as a species.
Breeding to close to home does weaken the gene pool, only have to look at royalty to figure that one out.

quote Originally posted by Xyster: Watch 5 minutes of MTV.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: Or "Glee," if you don't have cable.

I see no glorification of homosexuality going on in either of these examples.
now, I have seen the glorification of lesbian homosexuality. seems many enjoy that.
but - acceptance and "glorification" are 2 completely different things. tho, again, I do understand that if you are used to homosexuality being "hidden", it may seem like glorifcation.
and, trying to see how this applies to the topic?? unless you are maybe thinking "girly men" should be killed too along with the girls?

edit: and again - what is the "anti boy" attitude??

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 06-21-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: http://online.wsj.com/artic...361691165631366.html The article is a book review of a book called "The War Against Girls." The author finds that, since the 1970s, 173M girls worldwide, were aborted by families desiring boys. The moral implications of this are bad enough (and has always been my primary concern, as many of you know), and the situation calls PP's assertions that gender selection was not a purpose of abortion into question. However, one of the conclusions is mind boggling: In certain countries, there are 120 to as many as 200+ men to each 100 women. Such societies tend to become militaristic and even unstable. China is among these nations. I find myself agreeing with commenter Larry: "Demographers have known for centuries that hyper-male societies are very warlike. Nature produces more men because nature kills them quicker. But in societies where the male population is unnaturally elevated, that society becomes more militaristic I.e. Spartans. When we are talking about countries the size of China and India, this is a world threat. And to add to the equation, America has had an anti-boy attitude since the 60's, along with the glorification of homosexuality. When the hordes invade America, it won't be the women and girlie-guys defending this country. It will be the few remaining men left. God bless us all." Read and opine.

It’s pretty much a no brainier for the reasons why other countries prefer males. As for western counties it really doesn't matter for it is simple of a "roll of the dice." Think about it. How many people do we personally know would perform an abortion if they knew the fetus was a female? Most would happily have one of each, but would call it quits after the third try is a girl.

I don't know where the author's point at "anti-boy attitude since the 60's" unless he's referring to the vietnam war. Last I saw it there was on every channel that glorified males on TV. Gun Smoke, Mannix, Hawaii Five-O, and even the old guys has a spot like , Barnaby Jones. Music was no different. Only now we have that "Twilight" and "Bluemoon" vampire movies that truely wimpy at best. On the same note. I can name 10 guy bands from that period, but I'd be hard press naming 10 girl bands from the 60s. Didn't they coin the phrase, "Drug, sex, and rock n roll." At best the author is smoking crack if he thinks the 60s where anti-boy.

On the other hand, "the glorification of homosexuality" if anything is going on strong now. Homosexuality has been around for a long, long time. Yeah, they've soften the name a bit by adopting the word, "Gay," hehe.

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 06-21-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: ... edit: and again - what is the "anti boy" attitude??

No, the girly-men simply will not be able to defend our borders as well as the manly men.

Anti-boy attitude, anecdotal: http://www.city-journal.org..._3_schools_boys.html

More researched, summarizing her book: http://www.theatlantic.com/...r-against-boys/4659/

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I betcha you can find a pile of "white guys" who just love the little tiny asian women too. one of the strange things about what makes a member of the opposite sex attractive. and, one of the items is NOT being like "everybody else" or "exotic". That little thing drives ALOT of social forces - which includes racism.

*raises hand*

Oh yeah.
I pretty much prefer every race other than White over White.
I haven't done enough self-diagnostics to know WHY. I just do.
My girlfriend is Filipino. I love it!

Kamustaka?

China is a place thats big on this... since family's can only have one child they usually keep there pregnancy's private and out of hospitals so just in case they have a girl they can abandon it and start over for a boy. Its sad really. this is why there are a lot of asian girls adopted into the US

So will America and other western countries become Amazonian-like?

quote Originally posted by pontiackid86: China is a place thats big on this... since family's can only have one child they usually keep there pregnancy's private and out of hospitals so just in case they have a girl they can abandon it and start over for a boy. Its sad really. this is why there are a lot of asian girls adopted into the US

If they want a second they must petition the government.

Where they live, if they can afford a second one, if the first was a girl and if they are farmers are all considerations.
A friend of mine was granted a second child based only on the fact they had a girl first. They are pretty poor.

Most of the Chinese I have talked to have no problem with the rule.
They all give the same answer, we have too many people.
We have two cities over 3mil, they have like 26, and there country is about the size of our lower 48.

quote Originally posted by partfiero: If they want a second they must petition the government. Where they live, if they can afford a second one, if the first was a girl and if they are farmers are all considerations. A friend of mine was granted a second child based only on the fact they had a girl first. They are pretty poor.

You seem kinda educated on this subject, so can I ask you a question relating to PK's post that I am taking as somewhat of a 'given' truth that Chinese families would just 'start over' if they had a girl.

Do these families not have contact with the public or have friends at work and stuff? Pretty sure if someone at my work was NOTICEABLY pregnant for X months, and then, just not have any newborn, its gonna raise a few questions. Or does this mostly happen in the rural farming communities? Or (God forbid) that it is such a commonplace that people just accept the fact that it happens?

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: No, the girly-men simply will not be able to defend our borders as well as the manly men. Anti-boy attitude, anecdotal: http://www.city-journal.org..._3_schools_boys.html More researched, summarizing her book: http://www.theatlantic.com/...r-against-boys/4659/

hmpf...they seem to be doing a good job sofar?
but, anyways -good links - I do see what you are saying. but, I would not say that it is "anti-boy". not at all. the opening posts refers to preffering boys over girls. wrong or right? what you are calling "anti-boy" is just removing the preference, and having boys & girls be equal. this would appear "anti-boy" as boys once being preffered compared to boys being equal.

this is one of the tough things to grasp as others groups try to be equal with us white men. are we superior? or are we equal?
when we live as superiors, anything which brings another group "up to" us as equals - is essentially taking "us" down. so, I fully understand the idea.

as an Aryan (real, not some white power wannabe's), I've lived with this reality all my life.
just let them try and be as awesome as us. it's often very cute.

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 06-22-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: hmpf...they seem to be doing a good job sofar?

12 Million illegal immigrants agree with your definition of a "good job."

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: but, anyways -good links - I do see what you are saying. but, I would not say that it is "anti-boy". not at all. the opening posts refers to preffering boys over girls. wrong or right? what you are calling "anti-boy" is just removing the preference, and having boys & girls be equal. this would appear "anti-boy" as boys once being preffered compared to boys being equal.

These are two different topics:

Other cultures, primarily, are guilty of preferring boys in birth - gender selective abortion. Cultural issues are at play here, but what is being created is a society that has too many males than would naturally occur. Bad math in my head, but 10 -15% of men have no hope of getting married, or revert to mail order brides or prostitution from less developed neighboring countries.

Our culture is the "anti-boy" one, where male tendencies are deemphasized in culture and in the classroom. Add to that the number of disconnected fathers - whether by divorce or "baby-daddy" - who do not or cannot teach a boy how to be a man. How much violence against women in America can be linked to simply not telling boys, "You don't hit girls." when they were younger. Believe me, my wife has gotten me angry enough, but there is a sheer, ingrained taboo against hitting girls, and I can't comprehend anything that she could do to make me hit her. My kids know that, and my sons (My younger one lapses, but he has other issues*) as a rule, do not hit their sisters.

(*What other issues? Just diagnosed with Temper Dysregulation Disorder - used to be a bipolar diagnosis, but he doesn't have the euphoric highs that a bipolar person would. He is more Aspberger's - like.)

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: And tbone42, I didn't use the word "hordes,"

Well, the article you quoted did, so thats why I quoted it. Clearly, the word "Hordes" was used in your post. See?

quote Orginally Posted by Patrick's Dad: When the hordes invade America, it won't be the women and girlie-guys defending this country. It will be the few remaining men left. God bless us all."

Personally, the original article sounds like more paranoia than anything... even though I am being told to get my gun ready and hide under a rock, I guess I will just go on living my life until the "horde" shows up for a tussle, but to quote "Casablanca":

quote There are certain sections of New York, Major, that I wouldn't advise you to try to invade. ...

I think the same goes for much of the country nowadays.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 06-23-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 1988holleyformula: You seem kinda educated on this subject, so can I ask you a question relating to PK's post that I am taking as somewhat of a 'given' truth that Chinese families would just 'start over' if they had a girl. Do these families not have contact with the public or have friends at work and stuff? Pretty sure if someone at my work was NOTICEABLY pregnant for X months, and then, just not have any newborn, its gonna raise a few questions. Or does this mostly happen in the rural farming communities? Or (God forbid) that it is such a commonplace that people just accept the fact that it happens?

I have also been very curious about this whole thing so I have asked more than my share of questions.
In the Chinese culture they mostly respect another person's privacy, no big brothering. They really keep their nose out of others personal lives. So no one is going to tell or judge if they suspect someone has no baby now.
Though this type of thing happens to a very small percentage of the population, still is a fair amount because or the fact they have 1.3 billion folks.

Few will abort if they know it is a girl, most will just have it, then live with it. Though there are tons of young girls who are now divorced, and will never marry again because of her choice to keep it. Having a boy is a big deal.
In the county side they will petition for a second, almost impossible to do in the large cities. This had to do with the fine they charge for the privileged. Country side 10-30k, over 100k in the city.
But most women faced with the choice to abort or abandon their girl or save their marriage, will tell their slime dog husband bye bye.

There could be about as many forced abortions because of getting pregnant a second time, without permission as girls being abandoned.
The forced ones are nothing more than the government explaining she broke the law and they just go have it done, no dragging and kicking.
You do pay for it, after all you made the choice.
The doctor makes the decision if taking it is a threat to the mother, in that case they have the baby and pay a fine.
The amount of these is small, people are careful not to get pregnant.

An aunt of the friend I referred to has two girls, one was given to her by another family member because of financial reasons.
It is very common for children to be raised by other family members.
Both of her children are raised by her sister, who lives in the countryside(rural area) while in school, then she takes them for the summer.
This year her oldest daughter graduated so she has her full time now.
Good schools are more money in the major cities, so this is done for that reason many times. And all but the poor shell out the cost of schooling every year.

After living there I found most of the things I was fed about China were completely bogus, overblown or misunderstood.
If you use human nature along with the fact that the rest of the world thinks a bit different, you can sort out most of the things.

And the numbers you will see on the net are usually bogus, statistics are not kept there on most things.
If you see where some one say there are X number of abortions, there may be no statistics gathered there, so where did the number come from.
The government spends virtual nothing on studies, unless there will be a benefit.


The majority of the abortions probably are from unwed mothers, like here.
But there seldom, and I mean seldom will an unwed girl not abort.
But a girl who is not married will seldom, and I mean seldom get pregnant.

[This message has been edited by partfiero (edited 06-22-2011).]

quote Originally posted by partfiero: In the Chinese culture they mostly respect another person's privacy, no big brothering.

I know what you're suggesting, you mean from a cultural standpoint specifically. But the government is all BUT non-big brothering. It's been 20+ years since Tiananmen Square, but it's still a communist country. They don't have a lot of red tape and regulation, because they want to grow their economy, and the liberal groups don't have any real say. You have to get permission just to create a church, and religion is heavily regulated.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I know what you're suggesting, you mean from a cultural standpoint specifically. But the government is all BUT non-big brothering. It's been 20+ years since Tiananmen Square, but it's still a communist country. They don't have a lot of red tape and regulation, because they want to grow their economy, and the liberal groups don't have any real say. You have to get permission just to create a church, and religion is heavily regulated.

Tiananmen Square was equivalent to our Kent State, changed many things. They seam do far less spying on their folks than we do, especially after 9-11.
Most of the net blockage comes from pron sites and little of other things. They fear that it will erode their culture and the net is full of them.
I would go to sites that were critical of the government, and they were not blocked, and no one paid me a visit.

They treat religion as a business, you have to get a business license to open a church. You have to pay taxes if you make a profit. And you can only operate your business at the address listed on the license, no preaching on the street corner.

There are companies that are experts in getting a business license, so in the case of a church, marrying sites or anything they deem as sensitive, it is best to hire one of them.
I had to go through that on a company I opened, and visited a lawyer to insure everything was on the up and up. But not that big a deal.

The problem is it is not a religious country, so churches are far and few between.
No one will show up for services and the Chinese will probably not put anything is the basket when passed around.
Most work 6 days and Sunday is for shopping. One of the major shopping ares is beijing lu, the video had to be a week day as you cannot even move if you go on Sunday.


Met a young American girl in the religious section of a large book store who was there trying to convert people.
She admitted it was much tougher than she thought it would be.
But she said doing it on the street was forbidden because of no license, and the Chinese seemed to have no interest at all.
I asked if she could speak the language well enough to get her point across, she said she knew no Chinese.
Considering it is virtually impossible to find one Chinese who knows more than hello, why do they waste their time.

And as far as the government being communist, or as I call it commie light.
The hardest thing for me to stomach was when I came to the realization that in the daily life of a Chinese person, they have far less government intrusion than we do.
Guangzhou has 8.5 million, and there are just three government offices. Plus they are to hold local elections in that city this year.
So maybe what a government is labeled is no gauge to what it actually is.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: These are two different topics: Other cultures, primarily, are guilty of preferring boys in birth - gender selective abortion. Cultural issues are at play here, but what is being created is a society that has too many males than would naturally occur. Bad math in my head, but 10 -15% of men have no hope of getting married, or revert to mail order brides or prostitution from less developed neighboring countries. Our culture is the "anti-boy" one, where male tendencies are deemphasized in culture and in the classroom. Add to that the number of disconnected fathers - whether by divorce or "baby-daddy" - who do not or cannot teach a boy how to be a man. How much violence against women in America can be linked to simply not telling boys, "You don't hit girls." when they were younger. Believe me, my wife has gotten me angry enough, but there is a sheer, ingrained taboo against hitting girls, and I can't comprehend anything that she could do to make me hit her. My kids know that, and my sons (My younger one lapses, but he has other issues*) as a rule, do not hit their sisters. (*What other issues? Just diagnosed with Temper Dysregulation Disorder - used to be a bipolar diagnosis, but he doesn't have the euphoric highs that a bipolar person would. He is more Aspberger's - like.)

well, how about we add to that:
why is it that boys now play with dolls? yes, they will quickly retort Action Figure! but - it IS a doll. or, maybe we should start calling "Barbie" an action figure? which would fit in a porno world....
and, next, are they playing with dolls, or worshipping idols? ever actually see boys playing with their dolls?
I can agree that this is "anti-boy"
but, I do think that much of what you are seeing as "anti-boy" is more bringing girls up, than boys down - but - in the end - what is the real difference? by making girls more equal, makes boys less "on top".

quote Originally posted by Formula88: So you ask, and they say they had a miscarriage. Are you going to demand proof? Sure, newf would, but most people won't badger a new mother who just lost a child.

I'm not even part of the discussion and you still feel the need to lay out a personal insult, hey? I guess it's kind of a compliment that you think of me sooooo much but I really find your advances kind of pathetic and immature to be honest.

Oh and you might want revisit the definition of that word you love to call me.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: well, how about we add to that: why is it that boys now play with dolls? yes, they will quickly retort Action Figure! but - it IS a doll. or, maybe we should start calling "Barbie" an action figure? which would fit in a porno world.... and, next, are they playing with dolls, or worshipping idols? ever actually see boys playing with their dolls? I can agree that this is "anti-boy" but, I do think that much of what you are seeing as "anti-boy" is more bringing girls up, than boys down - but - in the end - what is the real difference? by making girls more equal, makes boys less "on top".

It really doesn't say males, it says male tendencies.
Girlification?

quote Originally posted by 2.5: It really doesn't say males, it says male tendencies. Girlification?

like bullying?
feel free to add anymore. some positive ones would help.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: like bullying? feel free to add anymore. some positive ones would help.

You think there are no female bullies?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:



wow
Arnies wife?????

See Kids, this is what steroids will do

[This message has been edited by proff (edited 06-24-2011).]