At least the first video the individual tried to show the cop his proof and the cop messed up.
In the video you show in your post the cop nicely explained they were responding to a complaint. ANd yes you can excersize your rights without being a douchebag like the guy in the video did. It caught my eye because it was my city.
We have kids carrying guns to schools and shooting them up. If I were carrying a pistol on my hip and a cop approached me and if you listen to the video they werent over the top and asked me to show my id and permit i would because they had a complaint. Why wouldnt you if you had nothing to hide? Why stand there with a chip on your shoulder and cry your violating my rights show your proof and move on. Guy was obviously out to make a point. Cops were not wrong in how they handled it. They tried to be reasonable. Heres a thought. Guy walking around with the gun on his hip. Legal with proper documentation yes absolutely. If hes walking down the road cops have NO WAY of knowing if he is legal or not. He could be on his way to a school with murder in mind and not right in the head. Theres only 2 options. Verify its on the up and up and inconvenience the person for 5 min thank them and go on their way or just look the other way and pray the individual is not going to shoot up a school?
I do have an honest question to what i wrote above.
Where is it written that a LEO is not allowed to try to prevent crime? (does a cop have the right or not if something seems wrong to question it and intervene?) Is intervention with the intent to protect the public not in a cops pervue?
Just wondering where the line is.
Yes there are bad cops just like there are plenty of good cops. One of my Cub Scout Den leaders is a Deputy Sherriff. Came to a meeting to show his tools and let the boys play with his fingerprint kit and showed them how they dust for prints and let them try.
[This message has been edited by HIOSILVER! (edited 05-19-2011).]
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01:45 PM
Rallaster Member
Posts: 9105 From: Indy southside, IN Registered: Jul 2009
I do have an honest question to what i wrote above.
Where is it written that a LEO is not allowed to try to prevent crime? (does a cop have the right or not if something seems wrong to question it and intervene?) Is intervention with the intent to protect the public not in a cops pervue?
Just wondering where the line is.
Yes there are bad cops just like there are plenty of good cops. One of my Cub Scout Den leaders is a Deputy Sherriff. Came to a meeting to show his tools and let the boys play with his fingerprint kit and showed them how they dust for prints and let them try.
This doesn't cleanly answer your question, but it does provide some... (?)insight(?). I'm not sure if this has changed, in the, nearly, 6 years since this ruling, but it is thought provoking.
Why have cops or LEO's at all if thats not in their job description to protect the public?
We may as well call them all crime scene investigators if all they are allowed or required to do is wait for crime to be committed before they act?
What that ruling does, based on how I understand it, is put personal protection at the discretion of the departments and States. Even though they are not Constitutionally bound to protect, they can at their own discretion.
WHile I do agree with you Rallaster about the LEO and how he reacted and do believe he overreacted from the beginning. I do have to question though. Waving it around absolutely the cop would have had cause to pull his own to approach. However. Unless it takes minutes to unholster your own weapon. if an officer approaches you and knows your armed and doesnt know your intent i think they have to be prepared unless they are a quick draw expert. I know some really fast people who practice quick draw and some holsters are designed for it yes? Why shouldnt the LEO at least have his gun at the ready knowing hes approaching an armed person?
quote
Originally posted by Rallaster:
If he was going about his business with the gun in it's holster there's NO reason for the LEO to act the way he did. If he had it out waving it around, yeah, I could see that kind of reaction. The cop was out of line and should be punished appropriately. If I'm walking around town with my sidearm holstered and not threatening anyone, the ONLY thing I should be questioned about is if I have a personal protection permit, and the interaction can be done without cussing, screaming and weapons drawn.
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02:41 PM
Rallaster Member
Posts: 9105 From: Indy southside, IN Registered: Jul 2009
WHile I do agree with you Rallaster about the LEO and how he reacted and do believe he overreacted from the beginning. I do have to question though. Waving it around absolutely the cop would have had cause to pull his own to approach. However. Unless it takes minutes to unholster your own weapon. if an officer approaches you and knows your armed and doesnt know your intent i think they have to be prepared unless they are a quick draw expert. I know some really fast people who practice quick draw and some holsters are designed for it yes? Why shouldnt the LEO at least have his gun at the ready knowing hes approaching an armed person?
Ready with their hand on their sidearm and maybe partially unholstered? Maybe, but out and already aimed at the "suspect"? Not a chance in hell.
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03:00 PM
Lambo nut Member
Posts: 4442 From: Centralia,Missouri. USA Registered: Sep 2003
If he was going about his business with the gun in it's holster there's NO reason for the LEO to act the way he did. If he had it out waving it around, yeah, I could see that kind of reaction. The cop was out of line and should be punished appropriately. If I'm walking around town with my sidearm holstered and not threatening anyone, the ONLY thing I should be questioned about is if I have a personal protection permit, and the interaction can be done without cussing, screaming and weapons drawn.
Best, most sensible post right there. The guy was dong nothing wrong in the first place so there was no reason for the police to approach him, ESPECIALLY with gun drawn! Pretty plain and simple the way i see it. This cop was a dumb azz and didn't even know it.
Kevin
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04:39 PM
Derek_85GT Member
Posts: 1623 From: Flipadelphia, PA Registered: Mar 2005
Mark is a very nice guy, quiet and polite. He carries a voice recorder because of continual harassment from local law enforcement, but it is recommended that anyone OCing carries one, because of situations just like this. I've been following this for a while now.
I do agree with some points. And a plus to all when i have a chance for some good debate on this.
Nice guy he may be but no reason to approach I dont agree. There was no way for the cop to know he was legal or his intent period. Was he a prick and handled it wrong absolutely but not wrong to approach.
Hypothetical questions for you.
If you were a cop. You witness a black individual dressed thuggish openly carrying into a corner market or perhaps and arabian with beard in full muslim dress also openly carrying walking toward an airport. Would you feel the same? Your first thought was oh hes not doing anything wrong ill let him go?
Maybe the black individual was a cop or maybe a gang member. How would you know? Maybe The muslim dressed individual was an air marshal or maybe he had terrorism in mind. How would you know for sure?
Now that link says cops arent required to protect. But would you be able to live with the fact that maybe that black individual robbed the store and you could have prevented it? Or the muslim individual made it into the airport and started shooting it up?
Perception is everything.
quote
Originally posted by Lambo nut:
Best, most sensible post right there. The guy was dong nothing wrong in the first place so there was no reason for the police to approach him, ESPECIALLY with gun drawn! Pretty plain and simple the way i see it. This cop was a dumb azz and didn't even know it.
Kevin
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09:31 PM
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blackrams Member
Posts: 31842 From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA Registered: Feb 2003
I sit here reading this wondering how many of those folks condeming the LEO have ever faced or challenged an unknown person that was carrying a weapon? Not your job, call the police. Let some other smuck risk his life. Just my thought process, not flaming anyone.
------------------ Ron
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09:32 PM
May 20th, 2011
Rallaster Member
Posts: 9105 From: Indy southside, IN Registered: Jul 2009
I do agree with some points. And a plus to all when i have a chance for some good debate on this.
Nice guy he may be but no reason to approach I dont agree. There was no way for the cop to know he was legal or his intent period. Was he a prick and handled it wrong absolutely but not wrong to approach.
Hypothetical questions for you.
If you were a cop. You witness a black individual dressed thuggish openly carrying into a corner market or perhaps and arabian with beard in full muslim dress also openly carrying walking toward an airport. Would you feel the same? Your first thought was oh hes not doing anything wrong ill let him go?
Maybe the black individual was a cop or maybe a gang member. How would you know? Maybe The muslim dressed individual was an air marshal or maybe he had terrorism in mind. How would you know for sure?
Now that link says cops arent required to protect. But would you be able to live with the fact that maybe that black individual robbed the store and you could have prevented it? Or the muslim individual made it into the airport and started shooting it up?
Perception is everything.
I will answer the perception question with: While I live and work in a semi-professional locale, the only thing that separates my looks from that of a bumb after I've been off for 3-4 days is the way I dress. I have a scraggly beard that grows in patches and hair that is shoulder length and always frizzy. If I'm out working on my car in my ratty jeans and torn up t-shirt and have to go to Wal-Mart for something I could almost qualify for "people of walmart".
Maine is also an open carry state, and I own handguns, but I will be dammed if I would ever carry open just because of this happening. It happens all the time, we have people right here in town that do, but they go threw the same crap unless they have been stopped before.
I am all for open carry, it would make thieves think twice about robbing you. But the police do have the right to see your id when you open carry just to make sure you have that right. Ie not out on bail or a convicted felon.
I do agree with some points. And a plus to all when i have a chance for some good debate on this.
Nice guy he may be but no reason to approach I dont agree. There was no way for the cop to know he was legal or his intent period. Was he a prick and handled it wrong absolutely but not wrong to approach.
Hypothetical questions for you.
If you were a cop. You witness a black individual dressed thuggish openly carrying into a corner market or perhaps and arabian with beard in full muslim dress also openly carrying walking toward an airport. Would you feel the same? Your first thought was oh hes not doing anything wrong ill let him go?
Maybe the black individual was a cop or maybe a gang member. How would you know? Maybe The muslim dressed individual was an air marshal or maybe he had terrorism in mind. How would you know for sure?
Now that link says cops arent required to protect. But would you be able to live with the fact that maybe that black individual robbed the store and you could have prevented it? Or the muslim individual made it into the airport and started shooting it up?
Perception is everything.
Black guy openly carrying no problem, Muslim is a different situation all together. First its a religion, not a race, second they did bring down the world trade center. Its not exactly Irish nuns having the holy war against the USA. If he is an air marshal airport security will let him through, so I wouldn't freak then either, now an AK poking out the bottom of his robe, might get my concern up. Also airport doe not = autozone. Big difference. Full dress muslim open carrying in autozone is not an issue to me.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 05-20-2011).]
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02:33 PM
Rallaster Member
Posts: 9105 From: Indy southside, IN Registered: Jul 2009
Maine is also an open carry state, and I own handguns, but I will be dammed if I would ever carry open just because of this happening. It happens all the time, we have people right here in town that do, but they go threw the same crap unless they have been stopped before.
I am all for open carry, it would make thieves think twice about robbing you. But the police do have the right to see your id when you open carry just to make sure you have that right. Ie not out on bail or a convicted felon.
Originally posted by deezil: Who was a Dick? The Guy Being illegally detained? Slippery Slope there. Sounds like his Civil rights were very close to being violated.
The kid, yes it was a kid in his mid 20’s didn’t want to give them his ID that they had every right to politely ask for and they did.
He made a federal case out of being asked for an ID so that the cops could check to make sure that he was, Not out on bail, Not a convicted felon, Not an illegal alien, Not have a restraining order on him, Not under age, Would you want anyone who had any of those things hanging over them carrying a gun in public? Let me guess, you are 20?
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
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08:28 PM
deezil Member
Posts: 779 From: St Louis Mo USA Registered: Mar 2010
The kid, yes it was a kid in his mid 20’s didn’t want to give them his ID that they had every right to politely ask for and they did.
He made a federal case out of being asked for an ID so that the cops could check to make sure that he was, Not out on bail, Not a convicted felon, Not an illegal alien, Not have a restraining order on him, Not under age, Would you want anyone who had any of those things hanging over them carrying a gun in public? Let me guess, you are 20?
Steve
... Steve, I am 37 years old..
Do you seriously think that Anyone with the Criminal backgrounds or restrictions you listed would be Open Carrying for all to see? I Highly Doubt it Criminals don't usually carry on their hip..
And you are correct they had Every right to ask him for his I.D.... And he had Every right to refuse the presentation of said I.D. He has a right to Open Carry in his State.... He Also has the right to not be illegally detained...
No Probable cause means they were violating his civil rights by detaining him..And they knew it...It took them a bit to realize it though..
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09:53 PM
nitroheadz28 Member
Posts: 4774 From: Brooklyn, NY Registered: Mar 2010
Do you seriously think that Anyone with the Criminal backgrounds or restrictions you listed would be Open Carrying for all to see? I Highly Doubt it Criminals don't usually carry on their hip..
And you are correct they had Every right to ask him for his I.D.... And he had Every right to refuse the presentation of said I.D. He has a right to Open Carry in his State.... He Also has the right to not be illegally detained...
No Probable cause means they were violating his civil rights by detaining him..And they knew it...It took them a bit to realize it though..
Bingo
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09:55 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Do you seriously think that Anyone with the Criminal backgrounds or restrictions you listed would be Open Carrying for all to see? I Highly Doubt it Criminals don't usually carry on their hip..
And you are correct they had Every right to ask him for his I.D.... And he had Every right to refuse the presentation of said I.D. He has a right to Open Carry in his State.... He Also has the right to not be illegally detained...
No Probable cause means they were violating his civil rights by detaining him..And they knew it...It took them a bit to realize it though..
Maine is an open carry state, for residents of the state. A lot of people don’t know that, and from the sounds of his BS he may have been a college student here from another state.
Do I think any of those people I mentioned would open carry, no. but it is in the best interest of the cops and general public to make sure he wasn’t one of those or any number of other things that restrict a person from having a gun.
So whose civil rights get stepped on? His or the person he shoots because he is pissed at some one for cutting him off in traffic after he just got out on bail?
You have to think about this. It is not against the law to ask someone for an ID to make sure they are who they say they are.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
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10:01 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 31842 From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA Registered: Feb 2003
And you are correct they had Every right to ask him for his I.D.... And he had Every right to refuse the presentation of said I.D. He has a right to Open Carry in his State.... He Also has the right to not be illegally detained...
No Probable cause means they were violating his civil rights by detaining him..And they knew it...It took them a bit to realize it though..
I don't know the rules of having a CCW in PA but, it is my understanding (in most states) that one of the requirements of a CCW is that you must carry the license so that when challenged, you are able to show your CCW. Please feel free to correct me if I wrong.
------------------ Ron
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10:06 PM
deezil Member
Posts: 779 From: St Louis Mo USA Registered: Mar 2010
So whose civil rights get stepped on? His or the person he shoots because he is pissed at some one for cutting him off in traffic after he just got out on bail?
You have to think about this. It is not against the law to ask someone for an ID to make sure they are who they say they are.
Steve
Again....they can ask for someones I.D all they want... Said person does not have to present it unless the officer states there is probable cause. No Probable cause and they illegaly detain him means they are violating HIS Civil rights.......
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10:18 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 31842 From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Again....they can ask for someones I.D all they want... Said person does not have to present it unless the officer states there is probable cause. No Probable cause and they illegaly detain him means they are violating HIS Civil rights.......
Again, correct me if I'm wrong but if you're carrying and have your license on you and it is a requirement of the license to carry the permit on you, how else is an officer to know you have a permit. IMO, not providing that proof of a permit would automatically disqualify the holder from meeting the requirements or rules of having the permit. Similar to a driver's license, you are supposed to have it on you when you drive, failure to show proof results in consequences. I see no violation of anyone's rights if required to show proof of either a CCW or a driver's license. It is after all, a privelige to drive and to carry a weapon in most states. A privelige that can be revoked.
------------------ Ron
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10:26 PM
deezil Member
Posts: 779 From: St Louis Mo USA Registered: Mar 2010
I don't know the rules of having a CCW in PA but, it is my understanding (in most states) that one of the requirements of a CCW is that you must carry the license so that when challenged, you are able to show your CCW. Please feel free to correct me if I wrong.
I saw you posted again about this.
If you are *Legally* concealing a Firearm on your person you would want to present that to them as soon as possible to avoid being confused with guys that should not be doing it.
If you are *Legally* Open carrying they better have a Damn good reason for wanting your I.D and detaining you. If not.... **** like this in this link below goes down and taxpayers have to foot the bill. http://www.the-two-malconte...t-rights-violated-2/
[This message has been edited by deezil (edited 05-20-2011).]
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10:35 PM
PFF
System Bot
blackrams Member
Posts: 31842 From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA Registered: Feb 2003
If you are *Legally* concealing a Firearm on your person you would want to present that to them as soon as possible to avoid being confused with guys that should not be doing it.
If you are *Legally* Open carrying they better have a Damn good reason for wanting your I.D and detaining you. If not.... **** like this in this link below goes down and taxpayers have to foot the bill. http://www.the-two-malconte...t-rights-violated-2/
In your example, the police disarmed the person. He apparently had CCW. All the police really needed to do was to ensure he had a permit and once that was determined. He should have been allowed to go on his way. The police erred per the settlement in actually taking the weapon from a licensed person. Again, just like the driver's license, a permit to carry is a privelidge. All one needs to do is to show the permit and move along.
------------------ Ron
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11:25 PM
ShadowHawk Member
Posts: 376 From: Broward County, Florida Registered: May 2011
The only time I felt cheated by cops was when I was 18 a lady reversed into my cars front end and faulted ME after i tracked her down since she did a HIT AND RUN
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11:31 PM
deezil Member
Posts: 779 From: St Louis Mo USA Registered: Mar 2010
In your example, the police disarmed the person. He apparently had CCW. All the police really needed to do was to ensure he had a permit and once that was determined. He should have been allowed to go on his way. The police erred per the settlement in actually taking the weapon from a licensed person. Again, just like the driver's license, a permit to carry is a privelidge. All one needs to do is to show the permit and move along.
We can go back and forth on this all night.. He was carrying open which is LEGAL IN HIS STATE. He does not have to have a permit to carry.
The Police Violated his 2nd and 4th ammendment rights and the taxpayers paid for it.
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11:42 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
If you are *Legally* concealing a Firearm on your person you would want to present that to them as soon as possible to avoid being confused with guys that should not be doing it.
Actually, you don't "present" anything. You inform the officer you have a permit and are armed. You only present the permit when instructed to do so. It's really important to understand it's a bad idea to reach for anything without the officer's instruction, especially if he knows/suspects you're armed.
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11:43 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
We can go back and forth on this all night.. He was carrying open which is LEGAL IN HIS STATE. He does not have to have a permit to carry.
But NOT legal in his CITY - unless he has a permit. This was covered on page one of your text.
quote
2. ALL OFFICERS SHOULD BE AWARE THAT PENNSYLVANIA IS CONSIDERED AN “OPEN CARRY STATE” WITH THE EXCEPTION OF PHILADELPHIA. IT IS IMPORTANT TO DEFINE A FEW TERMS USED, WHICH ARE AS FOLLOWS:
“OPEN CARRY” REFERS TO THE ACT OF OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRYING A FIREARM ON ONE’S PERSON.
“OPEN CARRY STATE” REFERS TO A STATE THAT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRY A FIREARM ON ONE’S PERSON WITHOUT A SPECIAL LICENSE OR PERMIT.
“CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE” REFERS TO A SPECIFIC LICENSE ISSUED TO AN INDIVIDUAL AUTHORIZING THE PERSON TO CARRY A FIREARM CONCEALED ON HIS OR HER PERSON OR VEHICLE.
3. IN PHILADELPHIA, UNLIKE ANY OTHER PART OF THE STATE, FOR ANY PERSON TO LAWFULLY, OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRY A FIREARM, THAT PERSON MUST HAVE A CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE. SO, IN PHILADELPHIA, IF A PERSON HAS A VALID CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE, HE OR SHE CAN LEGALLY CARRY A FIREARM EITHER OPEN AND VISIBLE OR CONCEALED.
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11:44 PM
deezil Member
Posts: 779 From: St Louis Mo USA Registered: Mar 2010
Actually, you don't "present" anything. You inform the officer you have a permit and are armed. You only present the permit when instructed to do so. It's really important to understand it's a bad idea to reach for anything without the officer's instruction, especially if he knows/suspects you're armed.
If I am in my Vehicle I have that out before he even gets up to the door.. So I Present this to them when they ask for my ID because it is on my DL. So...I Present..........
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11:58 PM
May 21st, 2011
deezil Member
Posts: 779 From: St Louis Mo USA Registered: Mar 2010
But NOT legal in his CITY - unless he has a permit. This was covered on page one of your text.
[QUOTE]2. ALL OFFICERS SHOULD BE AWARE THAT PENNSYLVANIA IS CONSIDERED AN “OPEN CARRY STATE” WITH THE EXCEPTION OF PHILADELPHIA. IT IS IMPORTANT TO DEFINE A FEW TERMS USED, WHICH ARE AS FOLLOWS:
“OPEN CARRY” REFERS TO THE ACT OF OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRYING A FIREARM ON ONE’S PERSON.
“OPEN CARRY STATE” REFERS TO A STATE THAT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRY A FIREARM ON ONE’S PERSON WITHOUT A SPECIAL LICENSE OR PERMIT.
“CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE” REFERS TO A SPECIFIC LICENSE ISSUED TO AN INDIVIDUAL AUTHORIZING THE PERSON TO CARRY A FIREARM CONCEALED ON HIS OR HER PERSON OR VEHICLE.
3. IN PHILADELPHIA, UNLIKE ANY OTHER PART OF THE STATE, FOR ANY PERSON TO LAWFULLY, OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRY A FIREARM, THAT PERSON MUST HAVE A CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE. SO, IN PHILADELPHIA, IF A PERSON HAS A VALID CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE, HE OR SHE CAN LEGALLY CARRY A FIREARM EITHER OPEN AND VISIBLE OR CONCEALED.
[/QUOTE]
At This point in the conversation I Was talking about the Loveland CO fellow.
And that was not my text.
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12:02 AM
blackrams Member
Posts: 31842 From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA Registered: Feb 2003
We can go back and forth on this all night.. He was carrying open which is LEGAL IN HIS STATE. He does not have to have a permit to carry.
The Police Violated his 2nd and 4th ammendment rights and the taxpayers paid for it.
Per your example, the police settled to avoid further litigation. I will agree the police may have pushed the envelope somewhat but, I also see the reason to check him out, verify his permit and let him move on. Were his rights violated in that brief time the police had his weapon? Not in my opinion. The public and police have rights also. That permit does not give the owner the rights of a god. IMO, there was no harm, no foul. Carrying has responsibilies also. One of them is good common sense. Again, I am not anti-gun, but I recognize the dangers and responsibilities of ownership and having a permit.
------------------ Ron
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07:08 AM
deezil Member
Posts: 779 From: St Louis Mo USA Registered: Mar 2010
Per your example, the police settled to avoid further litigation. I will agree the police may have pushed the envelope somewhat but, I also see the reason to check him out, verify his permit and let him move on. Were his rights violated in that brief time the police had his weapon? Not in my opinion. The public and police have rights also. That permit does not give the owner the rights of a god. IMO, there was no harm, no foul. Carrying has responsibilies also. One of them is good common sense. Again, I am not anti-gun, but I recognize the dangers and responsibilities of ownership and having a permit.
You can choose to see it anyway you wish but even the ACLU disagrees with you that this guys rights were indeed violated.
"Based upon Mr. Miller's account and LPD's own reports, no reasonable officer could have believed Mr. Miller was doing more on Oct. 7, 2008, than 'lawfully exercising his right under . . . law to possess a gun in public,' " the ACLU said."
Also,The Loveland CO Fellow did not need a permit. Open carry is legal where he resides.
