Originally posted by Boondawg: Why pick my answer out? I agree with Newf, Cheever3000 and Partfiero.
Why you ? You posted before Cheever or Newf and Partfiero kinda sorta agreed with me. Do you believe in curiosity ? That's what keeps me learning. Also, you were the only iron clad yes. Partfiero stated that we are doomed if we believe the clowns running the show can wright a good epilog. Do you agree ? Cheever says we are doomed indeed, no matter if we do or don't. Do you agree ? Newf ... ha ha, what did he say that you agree too. He asked questions and raised questions. By the way, I have been picking everybody's answer out.
Originally posted by cliffw: The "administration" refers to only one branch of our government, the Executive branch. It can propose budgets for what he wants to get done. Another branch, Congress, approves a budget recommendation and can pass willy nilly any expenditures it wants and can completely deny the administrations wish.
OK point taken on that.
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Originally posted by cliffw:
I would have to say define necessary. If it would mean raising the debt ceiling every year, or even three or four times a year, as has been happening, necessary gets a second look.
Fair enough, sometimes it's necessary other times it's not and can be debated for sure.
Not me. Not with more and more spending of money we don't have happening. Which is what is going on, and will some more, with a debt ceiling increase. I think any increase, to prevent default, should be met by equal expenditure cuts. No sense increasing the debt just to pay ever increasing interest. We need money to pay off the debt ... hello amerika ?
The point would be--you increase it along with employing a new strict plan, that will get us back. The increase would be necessary to keep us going in the meantime.
Just my thoughts...
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07:44 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Why you ? You posted before Cheever or Newf and Partfiero kinda sorta agreed with me. Do you believe in curiosity ? That's what keeps me learning. Also, you were the only iron clad yes. Partfiero stated that we are doomed if we believe the clowns running the show can wright a good epilog. Do you agree ? Cheever says we are doomed indeed, no matter if we do or don't. Do you agree ? Newf ... ha ha, what did he say that you agree too. He asked questions and raised questions. By the way, I have been picking everybody's answer out.
I just ment that others answered with a single no, and skated free with that answer.
I just believe that business as usual is just that...........business as usual. Always been that way. And it has worked for hundreds of years.
So yes. It always seem to get got in the end. The machine still buys, it still sells, money gets made, money gets spent, things pretty much go on the same as always. Boom, bust, boom bust. The beat goes on.
I just believe that business as usual is just that...........business as usual. Always been that way. And it has worked for hundreds of years.
So yes. It always seem to get got in the end. The machine still buys, it still sells, money gets made, money gets spent, things pretty much go on the same as always. Boom, bust, boom bust. The beat goes on.
Is that not the problem, though--that we just think we can keep pushing it back with no repercussions?
Soon, the machine won't be able to buy. Money might all be subjective, and based on some arbitrary concept, but because we've made it so important, it is just that. We are currently a super power on this earth, but if we continue at this trend, we won't be for long. The value of our goods and services are what brought us to where we are. We are rich because of all the new resources that were here and the new opportunities, and because once we got a little rich, we flexed our muscles. But now that we are falling, we can't pretend like the very thing that brought us to the top isn't important anymore.
It is, and we need to face that.... today.
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08:00 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
That's just it. We NEVER face it today. We have always put everything off untill it FORCED us to deal with it. That is how we have always delt with stuff. And we will continue to do that becouse that is who we are as a country.
That's just it. We NEVER face it today. We have always put everything off untill it FORCED us to deal with it. That is how we have always delt with stuff. And we will continue to do that becouse that is who we are as a country.
Yes, we will, and we have.
This is the moment we are being forced to deal with it. If we don't NOW, things will start to crumble. This IS that moment you speak of.
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08:08 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
While I admit I'm not surprised, I would like to understand why. Please enlighten me.
If I were a Senator or Representative in Congress, I'd have to vote no. Every dollar we spend must be offset by a dollar taken in. Borrowing on our children's, grandchildren's and further is not what I stand for or willingly accept.
------------------ Ron
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08:10 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Borrowing on our children's, grandchildren's and further is not what I stand for or willingly accept.
That's my point. Everyone is acting like we just started doing this. Like this is something new. This is how we have always done business.
Weather your father or mine willingly accepted it makes no difference. It's what we were handed. And we increased on it.
I do agree on responsable spending, but with all the hands out, just what responsable spending is becomes VERY murky. One mans responsable is another mans waste.....
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-16-2011).]
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08:12 PM
PFF
System Bot
blackrams Member
Posts: 31842 From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA Registered: Feb 2003
That's my point. Everyone is acting like we just started doing this. Like this is something new. This is how we have always done business.
Weather your father or mine willingly accepted it makes no difference. It's what we were handed. And we increased on it.
I do agree on responsable spending, but with all the hands out, just what responsable spending is becomes VERY murky. One mans responsable is another mans waste.....
If I understand your response, you're saying that because some of our not so bright distance relatives started this insanity, we should continue? Being stuck in gear, headed for the Grand Canyon of Debt with the accelerator and brakes as the only control we have, I would elect to take my foot off the accelerator and hit the brakes. At the bottom of that lies a big big man but, he's dead.
------------------ Ron
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08:22 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Well, it's more like a boat that has been taking on water for a very long time, but as long as we keep bailing, we stay afloat. We just can't take on many more people.
And yes, it would be nice to someday be dry.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-16-2011).]
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08:29 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 31842 From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Well, it's more like a boat that has been taking on water for a very long time, but as long as we keep bailing, we stay afloat. We just can't take on any more people.
And yes, it would be nice to someday be dry.
Boonie, Based on the government's own projections, you can't bail fast enough to keep up and neither can your and my kids. The boats going down and the rats know it but don't care.
------------------ Ron
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08:32 PM
partfiero Member
Posts: 6923 From: Tucson, Arizona Registered: Jan 2002
Why pick my answer out? I agree with Newf, Cheever3000 and Partfiero.
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Originally posted by Boondawg:
I just ment that others answered with a single no, and skated free with that answer.
Me?
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Originally posted by partfiero:
Not without some serious concessions by the ba$tards in power. But we are doomed when the ones who messed it up believe we should trust them to fix it. They are not serious and the taxpayer are just a good laugh to them. Outside of mass hangings, they will never get busy fixing it.
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08:33 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Boonie, Based on the government's own projections, you can't bail fast enough to keep up and neither can your and my kids. The boats going down and the rats know it but don't care.
And I believe all of a sudden, just like magic, a repair kit will mysteriously appear, seemingly out of nowhere. It alwayys does. A few holes will be patched, the boat will rise a little and we will continue under way. But the companey will never buy a new boat, not as long as patch kits magicly show up evertytime the crew starts grumbling. Becouse patch kits are cheaper then new boats.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-16-2011).]
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08:37 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Not without some serious concessions by the ba$tards in power. But we are doomed when the ones who messed it up believe we should trust them to fix it. They are not serious and the taxpayer are just a good laugh to them. Outside of mass hangings, they will never get busy fixing it.
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Originally posted by partfiero:
Me?
I agreed with your view of the system.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-16-2011).]
And I believe all of a sudden, just like magic, a repair kit will mysteriously appear, seemingly out of nowhere. It alwayys does. A few holes will be patched, the boat will rise a little and we will continue under way. But the companey will never buy a new boat, not as long as patch kits magicly show up evertytime the crew starts grumbling.
We are trying to use a repair kit, but you are the one saying we should just let the water keep coming in the boat because it'll get fixed "eventually". Sorry, I can't agree with that.
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08:41 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
We are trying to use a repair kit, but you are the one saying we should just let the water keep coming in the boat because it'll get fixed "eventually". Sorry, I can't agree with that.
No, i'm just saying the difference between bailing & patch kits are just a matter of simantics. The boat will never be fixed as long as the guys who sell the patch kits are also in charge of the bottom line.
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08:45 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
I guess what I am saying is I always HOPE the government does the right thing, but I just know from past expirience that they won't. They will come up with baubles & beeds, but nothing that will really amount to anything. There is nothing in it for them.
It will just be the same old shell game..........keep your eye on the pea, if you can.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-16-2011).]
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08:49 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
The debt cieling has been raised 74 times in the last 50 years and 10 times in the last 10.
The debt limit is the maximum amount of debt the federal government can legally issue at a point in time. The current limit will be reached in the next few months, prompting discussion over whether Congress should raise the limit. As with so many deliberations in Washington, though, the popular discussion on this topic is shrouded in confusion and ignorance, and masks the real issues.
The underlying issue is simple: If you spend your income on things you want, and the charges then show up the following month on your credit card bill, would you pay those charges? Yes, of course you would. You've made purchases and the bill has come due.
That's the whole question about raising the debt limit—whether Congress should allow the government to pay for spending that has already been approved by Congress. (Remember, it is Congress that authorizes all federal spending.) The answer, of course, is yes.
Now, as you're paying your credit card bill, you may well conclude that you are spending too much or that you need to earn more income to pay for your current standard of living. But that would be a separate issue, and stiffing the people who supplied the goods you just bought not only wouldn't resolve that problem, it would in fact make solving it harder, because your credit rating might fall if you don't pay what you already owe.
Likewise, the separate problem for the U.S. government is how to deal with our dismal fiscal future. The nation needs to resolve the looming fiscal imbalance through spending cuts and tax increases. Not paying the bills we already owe—that is, not raising the debt limit—not only won't solve the real problem, it would actually make a solution more difficult by undercutting the government's creditworthiness.
In short, raising the debt limit has nothing to do with controlling future spending or with raising the taxes necessary to pay for future spending. It is just a matter of paying bills that we've already incurred.
Raising the debt limit is a completely ordinary event. The limit has been raised 74 times in the last 50 years and 10 times in the last 10. Debt limit increases are associated with both Republicans and Democrats. When federal debt approaches the limit, the president typically favors raising the limit and the other political party demagogues the move. That is exactly what is happening right now.
Talk of refusing to raise the debt limit is just that—talk. Not raising the limit would require Congress to annually find about $1.3 trillion in federal tax increases or spending cuts—a set of policy changes larger than the revenues currently raised by the individual income tax. So far, the legislators who say they oppose a debt limit increase have not come forth with anything near such a plan. Nor should you expect them to. They are just blowing smoke. Eventually, they will agree to raise the limit.
While voters and members of Congress may find it cathartic to channel their outrage and frustration at the underlying budget situation onto the current debt limit discussion, the real question is how to adjust future spending and taxes to bring about future fiscal stability and sanity. The sooner we get to that discussion, the better.
Refusing to raise the debt limit not only would not help solve that problem, it would actually make a solution much harder to achieve.
Our Air Traffic Control systems are at least 15 years out of date. Air Traffic Control, for cripes sake.
"The technology the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) uses to navigate $200 million jets is less advanced than the GPS technology drivers use to navigate $20,000 cars."
A simple fix, yes? Then why has it not been fixed? Simple: Business as usual. No money in it.
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09:37 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 31842 From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Maybe I should have reworded this by asking: What happens if the debt ceiling is not raised?
An assumption on my part but, I assume our creditors would stop loaning us money. The system would come to a screaching halt. We would have to survive on what we can produce within the confines of our borders because our currency would be worthless to anyone outside of this country. The only way we could buy things from other countries would be by trading our goods or services to them directly for their's. Almost a bartering system.
Folks currently on government assistance would be left to survive or fail on their own. The vast majority would fail, they don't know how to survive outside of the nanny state. This is obviously, just my opinion but, it is what I believe will eventually come to pass.
------------------ Ron
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09:37 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
An assumption on my part but, I assume our creditors would stop loaning us money. The system would come to a screaching halt. We would have to survive on what we can produce within the confines of our borders because our currency would be worthless to anyone outside of this country. The only way we could buy things from other countries would be by trading our goods or services to them directly for their's. Almost a bartering system.
Folks currently on government assistance would be left to survive or fail on their own. The vast majority would fail, they don't know how to survive outside of the nanny state. This is obviously, just my opinion but, it is what I believe will eventually come to pass.
That's where I believe the "magic patch" would come in. The above would never be allowed to happen. Certain things would happen behind closed doors and we would be continued, with stern warnings that we need to change.
That's where I believe the "magic patch" would come in. The above would never be allowed to happen. Certain things would happen behind closed doors and we would be continued, with stern warnings that we need to change.
I find it ironic that while having this discussion, I've been watching "The Matrix". Edited: Seeing the world as it really is or, seeing it as they want you to.
------------------ Ron
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 05-16-2011).]
A PBS anchor put together a great series of clips from various financial experts talking about what would happen if the debt ceiling isn't raised and the U.S. defaults.
PBS has a transcript of the show, which has a number of great quotes from Ben Bernanke, Jamie Dimon, Nouriel Roubini, on the topic of a debt default.
Specifically, they all talk about the effects of a default on bond prices, but the potential effects so bad that it really shows the effects on the financial markets across entire world.
One quote from Jamie Dimon is especially chilling: Now, here's what really would happen.
Every single company with treasuries, every insurance fund, every -- every requirement that -- it will start snowballing. Automatic, you don't pay your debt, there will be default by ratings agencies. All short-term financing will disappear. I would have hundreds of work streams working around the world protecting our company for that kind of event.
And recently, he told the US Chamber of Commerce, "If anyone wants to [cap the debt ceiling], which I think would be catastrophic and unpredictable, I think they're crazy."
And Dimon apparently brought up the subject on JPMorgan's earning call yesterday too. According to the Wall Street Journal, he said that the bank is preparing for the (unlikely) case of default.
"We are praying," Dimon said, then, after a pause, "And we are planning."
Originally posted by Boondawg: I just meant that others answered with a single no, and skated free with that answer.
Not technically true.
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Originally posted by Boondawg: I just believe that business as usual is just that...........business as usual. Always been that way. And it has worked for hundreds of years.
"Business as usual". I have gotta say that I take issue with that phrase even though I see your consignment to the fact. I mean, business as usual can mean we keep on bending over and taking it ... in stroke. Sucking it on the other end as we take it. Perhaps that illustration is a bit harsh. Or is it ? "Always been that way" ? Sounds like "everybody does it". No, it has not always been that way. Not for freedom loving folks. The North Koreans ? Perhaps they think so. The Cubans ? Many do. Me and you ? Not me. Worked for hundreds of years ? Not without changes. You have made changes.
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10:13 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
"Business as usual". I have gotta say that I take issue with that phrase even though I see your consignment to the fact. I mean, business as usual can mean we keep on bending over and taking it ... in stroke. Sucking it on the other end as we take it. Perhaps that illustration is a bit harsh. Or is it ? "Always been that way" ? Sounds like "everybody does it". No, it has not always been that way. Not for freedom loving folks. The North Koreans ? Perhaps they think so. The Cubans ? Many do. Me and you ? Not me. Worked for hundreds of years ? Not without changes. You have made changes.
I'm talking about the machine and the illusion that we have any control over it or that it seems to always be right on the edge of breaking down (but never quite does). Remember, the limit has been raised 74 times in the last 50 years and 10 times in the last 10.
And remember, before you take too much issue with it, remember, it is just the opinion of an under-educated-in-hock-upto-the-ears-no-good-with-money-or-planing-for-the-future-nobody-speical. For sure nothing to get excited about or take to the bank or lay any stock what-so-ever in.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-16-2011).]
Good discussion. Something that caught my eye in the Washington Post article. - "The government needs about $125 billion more a month than it takes in each month. " That is borrowed money. It is crazy to think that this can go on for too much longer, and the rest of the world is starting to notice.
I like that more of the US is becoming aware of this huge problem.
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10:51 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 35946 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by Boondawg: That's just it. We NEVER face it today. We have always put everything off untill it FORCED us to deal with it. That is how we have always dealt with stuff. And we will continue to do that because that is who we are as a country.
Interesting. Who we are as a country ? Or as individuals making up a country ? When is today ? What is force ? Don ( I rarely use people's real names), I am not picking on you if you think that I might be. You yourself start many a thread which is thought provoking. I have done the same.
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10:53 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 35946 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by Boondawg: I'm talking about the machine and the illusion that we have any control over it or that it seems to always be right on the edge of breaking down (but never quite does). Remember, the limit has been raised 74 times in the last 50 years and 10 times in the last 10. And remember, before you take too much issue with it, remember, it is just the opinion of an under-educated-in-hock-upto-the-ears-no-good-with-money-or-planing-for-the-future-nobody-speical. For sure nothing to get excited about or take to the bank or lay any stock what-so-ever in.
Missed this post. Sorry. The machine. Gosh, the first thing which comes to my mind, is a song. I can't place it, . I do understand what you are saying. "Never quite does" is a pipe dream. I live with pipe dreams, to be honest. My opinion is also an under educated, in debt, no good with money (I love you honey ...wife), with dubious future planning skillz. Aside from that, I take stock in your thoughts. Really.
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11:13 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by cliffw: The machine. Gosh, the first thing which comes to my mind, is a song. I can't place it, .
Welcome my son, welcome to the machine. Where have you been? It's alright we know where you've been. You've been in the pipeline, filling in time, Provided with toys and 'Scouting for Boys'. You bought a guitar to punish your ma, And you didn't like school, and you know you're nobody's fool, So welcome to the machine.
Welcome my son, welcome to the machine. What did you dream? It's alright we told you what to dream. You dreamed of a big star, He played a mean guitar, He always ate in the Steak Bar. He loved to drive in his Jaguar. So welcome to the Machine.
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:
Aside from that, I take stock in your thoughts. Really.
And I yours.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-16-2011).]
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11:27 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 35946 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by newf: Maybe I should have reworded this by asking: What happens if the debt ceiling is not raised?
Yes. Let's ask. I was hoping to get an answer. They say we default on loans. Welcome to life for some. We have to pat higher interest rates. On new loans. We can not afford to pay any new loans. What else (any/everybody) ?
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11:39 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 35946 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
That's my point. Everyone is acting like we just started doing this. Like this is something new. This is how we have always done business.
Weather your father or mine willingly accepted it makes no difference. It's what we were handed. And we increased on it.
I do agree on responsable spending, but with all the hands out, just what responsable spending is becomes VERY murky. One mans responsable is another mans waste.....
The point you miss, and seemingly refuse to address, is that it Can't go on forever. There are at least 2 European nations right now, that for all intents and purposes have done exactly what we have done, and their entire economic system crumbled, and they were forced to ask other nations to bail them out. Ireland and Greece. Both, for months, resisted the prospect that they were over their heads in debt, until one day, the bond (debt) holders called their bluffs. IMF had to step in, broker a bailout from within the EU, and both nations were forced to embark on an extreme set of cuts, which (in the case of Greece) has resulted in riots, protests, and strikes in the streets. Both nations are now broke--beyond broke actually, still teetering on the brink of default. They put off their austerity programs untill austerity was forced upon them, and they were both lucky they had someone to bail them out. We have no such backboard to lean upon on, and there are plenty of nations and trade alliances that would like nothing more than to see us go down the economic tube.
Why are you so dead set against us righting our ship now, so we can avoid the same predictament they are in? Other than holding out till a conservative political majority is in place, thus allowing the default and disaster to occur under their watch, WHAT would be the downside to taking care of this in an orderly fashion now?
Just as you came to see in your own personal finances, all the economists in this nation and most of those elsewhere in the world have come to see that this nation's reliance onborrowing is absolutely unsustainable. No nation can survive, much less prosper under the evergrowing debtload we now see ourselves in. You reack a point at some time, that every single dime your country produces is spent to repay borrowed money. It's just folly not to address that. We are no longer the job producing manufactoring juggernaught we were back when we carried a measley trillion $ debt load, and as Obama himself cautioned everyone back in 2009, "many of those lost jobs will never come back--ever".
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-17-2011).]
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11:54 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Why are you so dead set against us righting our ship now, so we can avoid the same predictament they are in?
I am not dead set against it, I just don't believe it will happen any time soon. My time on Earth has shown me that it will be put off for as long as they think they can get away with it.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-17-2011).]
. I do understand what you are saying.
.
