quote Originally posted by cliffw: How 'bouts when you pull out in front of a car going faster than it should be, and, rather being a grill ornament you can get out of the way ?

All my bikes have these neat shiny things on the front to help me see into the lane im merging in to

Your first bike needs to be several things
1. Comfortable; if it's not comfortable, you won't ride it.
2. Maintainable; either by yourself or by a shop.
3. Droppable; it will be happening. Stop on ice, step on oil at a light, etc.

Your first bike does not need to be
1. Fast
2. Expensive
3. NEW - it's pretty safe to say you'll change riding preferences after 6 months or so, I.e. Develop a propensity for sport touring, enduro riding, etc. My first bike was a kz1000, then a nighthawk 750, then an sv650, then an fz1. I also have a dr650 enduro. I learned more on the sv650 than any of the others. The second slowest bike gave me the best education. I'd have purchased a ninja 250 if I hadn't already owned a kz1000, and if I weren't 6'3" and all torso.

The ninja 250 is hands down the best learner, even if you only keep it for 6 months. The attitude of "if you can't handle a liter bike you shouldn't be riding" is shared by many people i refuse to ride with. I have a bike with almost 170hp in the garage, but I ride the sv or the dr because they're more fun at legal speeds. Have you thought about a klr650 at all?

I spent years with nothing but a motorcycle, when I was younger, because I could only afford to maintain one vehicle. I would not do it now. I have reached a stage in life where I can chose the appropriate vehicle; car, pickup or motorcycle; and how do I choose to commute to work? A bicycle!

I rode a bike all the time in the late 80's. Eventually hit a deer and well.. it hurt. I've been driving a car ever since. Love bikes but for a daily commute I just can't do it again..

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Every single statement in this is factually incorrect. I have to believe that you're just trolling, because I can't see you accidentally being this ignorant of the 250's performance and safety on the highway. I don't know what words to use to say that you're any more wrong than what I've said so far.

Nope not trolling... I have over 150k miles of motorcycle experience on bikes 50cc up to 1800cc. I have taken the 250's I have had (Rebel, Ninja, Morphous, Reflex) on highways and they simply dont have the ability to stay with the flow of traffic as well as a bike that is 500+cc, that in my opinion makes them less safe than a bike that has the HP to adjust speed more quickly.

[This message has been edited by Falcon Fiero (edited 04-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Falcon Fiero: A 180mph bike is not more dangerous than a 250, safety is solely the riders responsibility. Nobody said you have to ride WOT. I never said go 100 mph when traffic is doing 70, that would be stupid.

You prove my point again. I didn't say you actually said that. I turned your example 180 degrees to show how it was inaccurate. "Safety is solely the drivers responsibility." A Ninja 250 is not an unsafe bike, unless the driver makes it that way.

Thanks to whoever gave me the negative for just disagreeing. My opinion stands. So much for the theory that disagreeing doesn't get you negatives.

Jim

quote Originally posted by Falcon Fiero: Nope not trolling... I have over 150k miles of motorcycle experience on bikes 50cc up to 1800cc. I have taken the 250's I have had (Rebel, Ninja, Morphous, Reflex) on highways and they simply dont have the ability to stay with the flow of traffic as well as a bike that is 500+cc, that in my opinion makes them less safe than a bike that has the HP to adjust speed more quickly.

Yep, trolling...

Sorry, I don't ride with squids...

Opinion != Fact.

I'll continue riding my lil' 250 quite safely on the freeway, keeping up with traffic (and usually going faster) quite easily despite your opinion...

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I gave you a positive to counter what may have been a negative. Though, I gotta wonder, how do you tell if a rating you get is negative or positive? It takes maybe 10 ratings to move my bar one pixel, so I can't tell at all.

You have a lot more ratings than I do, so 1 rating will not change your bar as much as it would mine. Thanks for the plus, but it's not necesarry, and I am certainly not asking for any more. Although I see I have received a few more ratings since I made that comment. Seems to not have moved any, so probably some on both sides. I stand by my comments here, and in other threads. A plus or negative is not enough to sway me.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 04-19-2011).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: That would be an example of using horsepower to get out of a bad situation created by poor riding skills.

What, ? You agree with me ?
Poor riding skills ? A car coming out of nowhere or way faster than he is supposed to be going ?

quote Originally posted by cliffw: What, ? You agree with me ? Poor riding skills ? A car coming out of nowhere or way faster than he is supposed to be going ?

No, it's called a sloppy rider making a lane change without assessing the traffic sitrep properly, going "Oh, shitAKE!" then cramming on the throttle to save his ass from being rear-ended. I guess in that context more HP is "safer", lol... But honestly, if someone's relying on more performance to cover up a low skill level perhaps they shouldn't be riding at all.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I guess in that context more HP is "safer", lol... But honestly, if someone's relying on more performance to cover up a low skill level perhaps they shouldn't be riding at all.

If you ride you share the road. One might have to cover up low driving skills of those we share it with.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Every single statement in this is factually incorrect. I have to believe that you're just trolling, because I can't see you accidentally being this ignorant of the 250's performance and safety on the highway. I don't know what words to use to say that you're any more wrong than what I've said so far.

Well, in that post I said " I totally agree a 250 can be a starter bike, and I have to say it was fun as heck on twisty roads." So you are saying that it can be a good starter bike is "factually incorrect"....that seems contradictory to your slant that is such a good bike. I'm confused. You also think that it is a bad bike for twisty roads? Why is that? Seems to me, its light weight would make it perfect for such riding (especially with no other traffic around).

If it is not a good bike for a beginner, or quick turns? What is it good for then?

quote Originally posted by Falcon Fiero: If it is not a good bike for a beginner, or quick turns? What is it good for then?

I dunn know. I have never seen one at a biker bar or in any of the many rallies which cruise my hill country. Mamby pambies ?

quote Originally posted by cliffw: I dunn know. I have never seen one at a biker bar or in any of the many rallies which cruise my hill country. Mamby pambies ?

Cliff look in the Chunky Cheese and Mcdonalds parking lots. LOL

Over 50 years I have ridden many bikes, from 50cc to 1200cc, and owned four:

1960 Zundapp "Super Saber" (250cc two-stroke single)
1967 BMW R69S (600cc twin)
1972 BMW R75 (750cc twin)
1982 BMW R100RS (1000cc twin)

The Zundapp was my sole means of transportation while in college, and I put about 18,000 miles on it before selling it. It weighed only 285 pounds, so it was pleasant to ride in town. Even with only 14.5 bhp, performance at 70 mph on Interstate highways was adequate for safety. Highway performance was significantly affected, however, by winds above about 25 mph. Two up, on a windy day, its highway performance was marginal.

For me, personally, 500cc to 750cc in a mid-weight bike is probably the optimum range. I also have found that 250 to 300cc per cylinder is just about the perfect design displacement for a motorcycle engine. My R100RS was a magnificent bike, but I didn't put many miles on it because it was too tall and heavy to be comfortable for me in town, and the 500cc-per-cylinder engine had a "thump, thump, thump ..." feel that I didn't particularly care for. Bigger is not always better. The R69S is probably my favorite of all the bikes I've owned, despite a few shortcomings. For a balance of power, weight, and handling, however, my favorite was a friend's 1960s Triumph Tiger 500cc twin; it was a joy to ride under virtually all road conditions, but it required constant maintenance and couldn't keep up with my R69S on the highway without incurring engine damage.

Consider not just power, but the overall power-to-weight ratio of the bike, and the relative performance of a 250cc motorcycle can begin to compare pretty well with something bigger. As others have said, 250cc is a very good choice for a first bike, and if most of your riding is in town I think that you'll find the performance adequate for almost any legal road situation. Whatever you choose in a bike, do yourself a favor and invest in a Snell-rated helmet, a decent windshield or fairing, and good-quality rain gear.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 04-21-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Falcon Fiero: Well, in that post I said " I totally agree a 250 can be a starter bike, and I have to say it was fun as heck on twisty roads." So you are saying that it can be a good starter bike is "factually incorrect"....that seems contradictory to your slant that is such a good bike. I'm confused. You also think that it is a bad bike for twisty roads? Why is that? Seems to me, its light weight would make it perfect for such riding (especially with no other traffic around). If it is not a good bike for a beginner, or quick turns? What is it good for then?

Ah, semantic games. I'll go back and edit my post to deal with your tactics...

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Ah, semantic games. I'll go back and edit my post to deal with your tactics...

, like we are gonna go back and read your dribble again,

quote Originally posted by cliffw: , like we are gonna go back and read your dribble again,

You like my "dribble", that's why you always seem there with mouth open to receive it...

Yep, your right. Train wrecks are always fun to watch.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: , like we are gonna go back and read your dribble again,

Cliff, for the love of god, get a hobby besides following JazzMan around on here. His post you quote wasn't even directed at you, let it go.


Agree to disagree and ignore each other, get a room and beat the crap out of each other, or come to some other resolution, but please, stop this crap. Or at least just do it in the threads marked politics so those of us that want to avoid political/religious threads to avoid this useless bickering don't have it intruding into other threads.

[This message has been edited by naskie18 (edited 04-20-2011).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Sigh. Opinion != fact. To summarize your post here, and on this subject in general: You are of the opinion that 250cc bikes are dangerous because you feel they're "underpowered". You have no facts or evidence to back up this opinion, so you substitute repetition instead in the hope that if you say it often enough people will think your opinion is in fact true. It's not.

Thanks for being more specific with your explanation. I can see where you are coming from, and its a common place for most motorcyclists, that they believe the bike they have is the best bike in the world, when its actually "the best bike in the world FOR THEM." Often times that is based on limited expereince with a variety of machines.
I had never been interested in a "sport bike" style bike until I bought my 08 Ninja when gas prices were so high because it was supposed to get really good milage, and it got about 60 average. It filled the criteria of a gas saver pretty well. However, when I would take it on the highway or up mountain roads it was VERY slow, and was easly out run by my SO riding my Honda Reflex 250 (which got 70+mpg). One time I took it up Ute pass and had a line of traffic behind me because it was so slow on the steep parts. Once we got off that road and took 67 from Woodland Park to Deckers ( one of the most popular motorcycle roads in Colorado) the Ninja was fun again. It handled the curves so well since it was so flickable, although it is a bit top heavy w/ a full tank of gas. The Reflex could not keep up in the twisties either. As much as I was enjoying the Ninja sportbike style more than I thought I would, I bought a Hayabusa to compare the two. After having the Busa for a weekend, I realized how much better of a bike it was. It did the turns as well, stopped better, and got nearly the same mileage, PLUS it didnt make me hold up traffic in the mountains. If you have ever driven, or ridden in Colorado you would know that is not a good thing to do. (is that a FACT or EVIDENCE??) That all being said, I sold it to buy another bike because it was not as comfortable I would have liked (even with the Corbin seat, bar risers, and touring screen) for the 500+ mile days I often do.
If you ever get the chance to have MBS ( multiple bike syndrome) like I do, you should take the opportunity to see that each bike DOES have its place. I am happy you think your 250 is the s#it, AND its is a pretty good bike, but it is limited. I used to think my Honda Rebel 250 was awesome, until I got my Shadow 1100. I used to think my Honda Pacific Coast was the bike I would have forever, until I road and Gl1800. My friend just got a Victory Vision and I cannot wait to test that puppy out!
I am currently looking for an enduro type bike KLR - VSTROM or something to take on some of the single track we have here in Col....and WOW the polar opinions on why one is better than the other...nobody agrees. Ill just have to buy one of each and make up my own mind. When I told the Ninja 250 Forum I was getting a Busa they all said I was going to die because it was too powerful, and when I told the Busa forum I was coming from a 250 they all asked how I didnt get run over.
I have ridden so many bikes I am smart enough to realize that they all have their place, some just do things better than others.....
You say I repeat myself too much that a 250 is not safe on the hwy.....I'll just say that merging on 1-25 w/ a speed limit of 75 w/ a fully loaded 18 wheeler on my tail, I'd rather have more HP to get where I need to go. I am from the "its better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it" school of thought on this.
YMMV, but 35 hp on a highway is not enough for me.

[This message has been edited by Falcon Fiero (edited 04-20-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Falcon Fiero: Thanks for being more specific with your explanation. I can see where you are coming from, and its a common place for most motorcyclists, that they believe the bike they have is the best bike in the world, when its actually "the best bike in the world FOR THEM." Often times that is based on limited expereince with a variety of machines.

Nope, you didn't get it. That's ok, I don't need for you to understand it at all because we'll never ride together nor will any opinion you have ever have any meaning or effect on or in my life and endeavors.

BTW, I don't think my bike is "the shite" as you put it. It's a good bike and fulfills my needs quite easily, but I certainly don't think it's the "best" (whatever the heck that means) bike in the world, or even here in the USA. The main issue I have with you is your off-repeated trope that it's unsafe just because it's a 250, and the misconception you seem to have that power and safety are linked in some sort of fashion. Worse, someone just entering the world of motorcycling might believe you and get themselves killed as a result. Of course, you'll just stand back from the bloody corpse and claim no responsibility, putting all the onus on the dead rider. That would be tragic.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Nope, you didn't get it. That's ok, I don't need for you to understand it at all because we'll never ride together nor will any opinion you have ever have any meaning or effect on or in my life and endeavors. BTW, I don't think my bike is "the shite" as you put it. It's a good bike and fulfills my needs quite easily, but I certainly don't think it's the "best" (whatever the heck that means) bike in the world, or even here in the USA. The main issue I have with you is your off-repeated trope that it's unsafe just because it's a 250, and the misconception you seem to have that power and safety are linked in some sort of fashion. Worse, someone just entering the world of motorcycling might believe you and get themselves killed as a result. Of course, you'll just stand back from the bloody corpse and claim no responsibility, putting all the onus on the dead rider. That would be tragic.

And likewise, I hope a beginning rider doesn't think they have to buy a 35hp bike just because they are a beginner. I hope beginning rider dont take your advice and get killed because their machine didnt have the ability to travel at a safe speed. Saying a beginner needs an underpowered machine is like saying a beginning shooter needs to learn with a bb gun.
I would not think we would ride together because out here we have hills, mountains and I know for a FACT you would not be able to keep pace....even with my 950lb bagger.
Ride safe.

[This message has been edited by Falcon Fiero (edited 04-20-2011).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: nor will any opinion you have ever have any meaning or effect on or in my life and endeavors.

And that's why we're all wasting our time.

Now, please, let this thread die while Cliff has gone to sleep, and we'll let the OP make up his own mind based on what we've discussed and (more importantly) the results of his own test ride(s).

wow, i like the way this thread went!

As for highway performance of the 250, this youtube video leaves me with little doubt that merging into traffic is gonna be a problem. http://www.youtube.com/watc...XR9k&feature=related

Perhaps an older technology 250 would not be adequate, but this one is perfectly capable of running on the highway.

As for getting rear ended by a speeding car; I prefer not pulling in front of speeding cars.

quote Originally posted by MordacP: As for getting rear ended by a speeding car; I prefer not pulling in front of speeding cars.

That's how to do it... I want a bike for commuting to work and the occasional short run wherever. Was thinking about a 250 sportbike purely for the fuel economy but I think I may be far too tall to fit comfortably anyhow. Would probably get something around a 600 just because I have a fairly large frame (not heavy, though).

6' broad build and ~190lbs ... your thoughts?

[This message has been edited by skuzzbomer (edited 04-20-2011).]

quote Originally posted by skuzzbomer: That's how to do it... I want a bike for commuting to work and the occasional short run wherever. Was thinking about a 250 sportbike purely for the fuel economy but I think I may be far too tall to fit comfortably anyhow. Would probably get something around a 600 just because I have a fairly large frame (not heavy, though). 6' broad build and ~190lbs ... your thoughts?

Try this: http://cycle-ergo.com/

quote Originally posted by skuzzbomer: That's how to do it... I want a bike for commuting to work and the occasional short run wherever. Was thinking about a 250 sportbike purely for the fuel economy but I think I may be far too tall to fit comfortably anyhow. Would probably get something around a 600 just because I have a fairly large frame (not heavy, though). 6' broad build and ~190lbs ... your thoughts?

I'm nearly that size and my old-gen Ninja 250 fits just fine. The new gens are a little more laid down, though, so you might just try sitting on a few to see how they feel. Plenty of people taller than me ride both gens no problem, though.

The only major difference between the old and new is the styling. The new one is just an update mid 80s bike. Also, you shouldn't judge a bike's street performance based on how it performs in it peak range at the last 2,000 rpms. You won't be cruising down the highway in 3rd gear near redline ready to accelerate, you'll be in top gear cruising. By all means, a 250 is a great commuter bike. They are extremely popular for that. You just shouldn't plan an a 250 for a lot of highway commuting. My comments weren't intended to give anyone the impression that people who ride 250's are inferior in any way. I simply meant that you shouldn't ride a 250 because you can't handle a bigger bike. The one person mentioned that he wouldn't ride with people on liter bikes with that mentality. I, on the other hand, won't ride with people who only ride 250's if they ride them because they aren't good enough riders to ride a full size bike. An incompetent rider with 250 cc's can kill fellow motorists just as dead as a rider on a gixxer. As Jazz said, changing the gearing can make it more highway friendly, just like swapping from a 4.11 to 2.73 would in a car. This will have the effect of killing your acceleration, but for a commuter you don't need a 0-60 rocket. I STILL think an ex250 for heavy highway use is a bad idea. I think you would be a lot better off going with an ex500. I have ridden a friends 250 and it fit her well because she is ~5'3/110 but for me at 6'/200 it was cramped and sluggish. You feel weight a lot more on any bike than you do in a Fiero.

quote Originally posted by TommyRocker: The only major difference between the old and new is the styling. The new one is just an update mid 80s bike.

That, and the revised suspension geometry, the revised riding position, significant changes inside the engine to increase midrange torque at the expense of top end power, went to bucket and shim valves which increased the valve adjustment interval by 25%, added a fuel gauge (fairly inaccurate like the Fiero's), 17" radials instead of the 16" bias plys, etc. It does share some common concepts with the previous one, such as 2 cylinders. Mechanically, nothing interchanges except for perhaps light bulbs and screws.

quote Originally posted by TommyRocker: Also, you shouldn't judge a bike's street performance based on how it performs in it peak range at the last 2,000 rpms. You won't be cruising down the highway in 3rd gear near redline ready to accelerate, you'll be in top gear cruising. By all means, a 250 is a great commuter bike. They are extremely popular for that. You just shouldn't plan an a 250 for a lot of highway commuting.

Acceleration in top gear is just dandy for passing, though if you feel the needz to stuntz while passing like lifting the front tire, well, then, won't do that. Of course, around here if a cop sees you doing that you're going to jail. After you bond out you can go get your bike out of impound. I can't remember, is reckless riding a class B misdemeanor or class A? I do all my highway commuting on a 250, over 1,000 miles a month on average, generally going faster than everyone else and generally having to slow down to merge in with 70-75 mph traffic.

quote Originally posted by TommyRocker: My comments weren't intended to give anyone the impression that people who ride 250's are inferior in any way...I, on the other hand, won't ride with people who only ride 250's if they ride them because they aren't good enough riders to ride a full size bike.

...

quote Originally posted by TommyRocker: An incompetent rider with 250 cc's can kill fellow motorists just as dead as a rider on a gixxer. As Jazz said, changing the gearing can make it more highway friendly, just like swapping from a 4.11 to 2.73 would in a car. This will have the effect of killing your acceleration, but for a commuter you don't need a 0-60 rocket. I STILL think an ex250 for heavy highway use is a bad idea.

I will agree, it is definitely unsafe for you or Fiero Falcon to ride a 250 Ninja on a freeway. The rest of us that can, will continue to ride safely on the freeway every single day, including this guy: http://www.theyeagergroup.c..._250_BB1500_50CC.htm who has completed several IBA rides on his essentially stock pregen 250 Ninja:

Once again I found the motorcycle a very capable mount providing enough power for the speed and traffic conditions imposed by Interstate travel. Those who are amazed, bewildered, or skeptical about someone undertaking a 6,000 mile, 8 day trip on a Ninja 250R are just not familiar with this little motorcycle. The little Ninjette is truly amazing. Its light weight and ease of maneuverability combined with the velvety smooth little twin's low heat production and heat dissipation create a truly versatile platform for solitary touring or relaxed riding. Fuel mileage was less than the norm, but was not disappointing considering the wind, terrain, and traffic flow.

Or this couple, riding from here to Equador on, you guessed it, a used pregen 250 Ninja that's bone stock: http://forums.ninja250.org/....php?p=821970#821970

It takes power to get out of a bad situation. It takes something else to not get into one in the first place...

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 06-08-2011).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I will agree, it is definitely unsafe for you or Fiero Falcon to ride a 250 Ninja on a freeway.

Thanks for that advice, I appreciate you looking out for me. I cant imagine having a bike that took 5 seconds to go from 70-80 mph on the highway.

Oh, I also had a Ninja 500 for a while....MUCH better on the highway than the 250 I had. 30+ hp over the 250 sure made a difference!

[This message has been edited by Falcon Fiero (edited 04-21-2011).]

None of those updates change the basics of the bike. The new gen is a bit slower in the 1/4 than the old gen, but for normal people, the riding experience will be the same. That was my point.