eff that. If we are gonna win that country's war, we get the country... Seriously though, we need to stop being the World Police Department. Screw the UN.
If the UN says "jump," Obama will ask "How high?" Regardless of any action or inaction by the US, UN, or any nation, the rebels appear to be on the verge of being wiped out. Even if Gaddafi is stopped and removed from power, there will be a huge power vacuum that will be filled, possibly by someone even worse.
At this stage, I don't see many options that can improve the situation.
If the UN says "jump," Obama will ask "How high?" Regardless of any action or inaction by the US, UN, or any nation, the rebels appear to be on the verge of being wiped out. Even if Gaddafi is stopped and removed from power, there will be a huge power vacuum that will be filled, possibly by someone even worse.
At this stage, I don't see many options that can improve the situation.
The nuclear option is always on the table.
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07:31 PM
css9450 Member
Posts: 5426 From: Glen Ellyn, Illinois, USA Registered: Nov 2002
There were no opposing votes on the 15-member [UN Security] council, but China, Russia, Germany, India and Brazil abstained. Germany said it was concerned about a protracted military conflict.
Slight correction here..SCOTLAND allowed it. They have their own Parliament, and NEVER willingly listen to the ENGLISH parliament The decision was THEIRS, as far as most people in England see it. In fact, I'd go as far to say they did it purely to harm the Westminster Parliament. THAT is how malignant the Scottish Parliament is towards England. Sucked on the teat of England for every penny they could get and then, when AMERICA and ENGLAND jointly found oil in the North Sea, they claimed it as their own, and spend the income like drunken sailors chasing mouse-catchers in the Main street of a harbour town No, I can't STAND Alex Salmon...the name fits perfectly; VERY fishy man. A true Capitalist masquerading as a Socialist. Like most Socialist Parliamentarians, they are rich, and intend to stay that way, by fair means and foul...usually the latter. No, that is NOT a poke at Capitalists who openly admit to being so It is the slimy two-faced conmen in Politics the World over I am pointing the finger at . Nick
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08:04 PM
Black Lotus Member
Posts: 340 From: Washington State USA Registered: Jan 2010
You must be right, Britain has certainly steered clear of even a whiff of scandal since SCOTLAND released Mr. Bomber Man. But hey, somebody has to get those oil rights contracts--anyway they can. But wait--first we have to pollute the Gulf Coast first. Sorry pal, I own two Lotuses, I know how perverse the English mind is. http://www.libyaonline.com/....php?cid=75&id=16382
I don't think the Libyans fighting for freedom care who it is that helps them but I find it interesting that in this case it seems the U.S. could be legitimately on the side of what the country supposedly stands for (Freedom, Liberty, Equal rights, no matter where they live) and people here don't seem to support it or want something in return. Wow.
The role of world police force seems to be one that the U.S. has fully embraced in the past and relished in, like I said in the other thread it would be a huge foreign policy shift if that suddenly changed.
The U.S. obviously spends more by leaps and bounds over any other nation on a military so it would make sense that they would be looked to for guidance and to use their resources in such a case. I think the U.S. could opt out if they wanted and other countries could exert a no fly zone and help the Libyans but my opinion would be they would be on the wrong side of history in this case.
Plus the U.N. resolution may be used to threaten Quaddafi to step down without anymore military action to allow an attempted new "peaceful" revolution.
[This message has been edited by newf (edited 03-17-2011).]
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09:28 PM
spark1 Member
Posts: 11159 From: Benton County, OR Registered: Dec 2002
Libya offers immediate cease fire proposal after no fly zone declared by UN.
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TRIPOLI, Libya – Libya declared an immediate cease-fire Friday, trying to fend off international military intervention after the U.N. authorized a no-fly zone and "all necessary measures" to prevent the regime from striking its own people. A rebel spokesman said Moammar Gadhafi's forces were still shelling two cities.
The cease-fire announcement by the Libyan foreign minister followed a fierce government attack on Misrata, the last rebel-held city in the western half of the country. A doctor said at least six people died.
Mustafa Gheriani, a spokesman for the rebels, said attacks continued well past the announcement.
"He's bombing Misrata and Adjadbiya from 7 a.m. this morning until now. How can you trust him?" Gheriani said.
The U.N. Security Council resolution, which was passed late Thursday after weeks of deliberation, set the stage for airstrikes, a no-fly zone and other military measures short of a ground invasion. Britain announced that it would send fighter jets, Italy offered the use of its bases, and France was making plans to deploy planes. The U.S. had yet to announce its role. NATO also held an emergency meeting.
With the international community mobilizing, Libyan Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa said the government would cease fire in line with the resolution, although he criticized the authorization of international military action, calling it a violation of Libya's sovereignty.
"The government is opening channels for true, serious dialogue with all parties," he said during a news conference in Tripoli, the capital. He took no questions.
In Washington, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that the first goal of international action is to end the violence in Libya.
"We have to see a very clear set of decisions" by Gadhafi's forces, she said. Clinton said government forces must pull "a significant distance away from the east" — where the rebels now hold sway.
The rebels, once confident, found themselves in danger of being crushed by an overpowering pro-Gadhafi force using rockets, artillery, tanks, warplanes. That force has advanced eastward along the Mediterranean coast in recent days.
A large crowd in the Benghazi, the city where the uprising started on Feb. 15, watched the U.N. vote on an outdoor TV projection and burst into cheers, with green and red fireworks exploding overhead. In Tobruk, another eastern city, happy Libyans fired weapons in the air to celebrate.
"We think Gadhafi's forces will not advance against us. Our morale is very high now. I think we have the upper hand," said Col. Salah Osman, a former army officer who defected to the rebel side. He was at a checkpoint near the eastern town of Sultan.
Western powers faced pressure to act quickly as Gadhafi's forces gained momentum. The U.S. has positioned a host of forces and ships, including submarines, destroyers, and amphibious assault and landing ships with some 400 Marines aboard. It also could provide a range of surveillance.
In an interview with Portuguese television broadcast just before the U.N. vote, Gadhafi pledged to respond harshly to U.N.-sponsored attacks. "If the world is crazy," he said, "we will be crazy, too."
The Libyan government closed its airspace Friday, according to Europe's air traffic control agency, Eurocontrol.
Government tanks rolled into Misrata, 125 miles (200 kilometers) southeast of Tripoli, early Friday, shelling houses, hospitals and a mosque for several hours before pulling back to the city's outskirts, witnesses said. At least six people were killed, raising the total death toll in two days of fighting to nine, a local doctor said.
Misrata is the rebels' last western holdout after Gadhafi recaptured a string of other cities that fell to the opposition early. Its fall would leave the country largely divided, with the rebels bottled up in the east near the border with Egypt.
The city has been under a punishing blockade that has prevented aid ships from delivering medicine and other supplies, the doctor said.
"They haven't stopped shelling us for a week — we sleep to shelling, and wake up to shelling. They are targeting houses and hospitals," he said, adding the hospital had been overwhelmed.
"We have had to perform surgeries in the hallways using the light from our cell phones to see what we're doing. We are also using some clinics around the town, some only have 60 beds, which isn't enough," he said.
Another doctor claimed Gadhafi's forces had surrounded some neighborhoods and were shooting at people who ventured outside. "Militias used two ambulances to jump out of and shoot at innocent people indiscriminately," he said.
Gadhafi troops encircled the city of Ajdabiya, the first in the path of their march, but also had some troops positioned beyond it toward Benghazi, the second largest Libyan city, with a population of about 700,000.
Libya's unrest began in Benghazi and spread east to Tripoli. Like others in the Mideast, the uprising started with popular demonstrations against Gadhafi, rejecting his 41 years of despotic and often brutal rule. The tone quickly changed after Gadhafi's security in Tripoli forcefully put down the gatherings there.
Soon rebel forces began arming themselves, quickly taking control of the country's east centered on Benghazi. Some Libyan army units joined the rebels, providing them with some firepower, but much less than Gadhafi's remaining forces.
There are no reliable death tolls. Rebels say more than 1,000 people have been killed in a month of fighting, while Gadhafi claims the toll is only 150.
Reportedly there is still fighting going on. Guess we can't trust Qaddafi?
We never could. I don't believe he even has control over all his forces, that could explain why some shots are being fired. I guess we'll know more tomorrow. Or not.
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03:36 PM
Scottzilla79 Member
Posts: 2573 From: Chicago, IL Registered: Oct 2009
The U.S. obviously spends more by leaps and bounds over any other nation on a military so it would make sense that they would be looked to for guidance and to use their resources in such a case. I think the U.S. could opt out if they wanted and other countries could exert a no fly zone and help the Libyans but my opinion would be they would be on the wrong side of history in this case.
I'm ready to sit this one out and let France lead the charge.
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06:41 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama demanded Friday that Moammar Gadhafi halt all military attacks against civilians and said that if the Libyan leader did not stand down the United States would join in military action against him.
Still, Obama also said the United States "is not going to deploy ground troops into Libya." ... "If Gadhafi does not comply, the international community will impose consequences, and the resolution will be enforced through military action," Obama said.
So he "demands" Gadhafi stop after Gadhafi proposes a cease fire. That's some decisive leadership there, boy.
By RYAN LUCAS and HADEEL AL-SHALCHI, Associated Press Ryan Lucas And Hadeel Al-shalchi, Associated Press
Gadhaffi attacks Benghazi in spite of cease fire pledge
BENGHAZI, Libya – Moammar Gadhafi took advantage of international indecision to attack the heart of the 5-week-old uprising on Saturday, sending troops, tanks and warplanes to swarm the first city seized by the rebels. Crashing shells shook buildings, and the sounds of battle drew closer to Benghazi's center.
"Where is France, where is NATO?" cried a 50-year-old woman in Benghazi, where a doctor said 27 people were killed Saturday. "It's too late."
Leaders from the Arab world, the United States and other Western powers are holding urgent talks in Paris over possible military action, and France's ambassador to the United Nations, Gerard Araud, told BBC Newsnight that he expected military action to begin within hours of the meeting. In an open letter, Gadafhi warned: "You will regret it if you dare to intervene in our country."
On Saturday, a warplane was shot down over the outskirts of Benghazi, sending up a massive black cloud of smoke. An Associated Press reporter saw the plane go down in flames and heard the sound of artillery and crackling gunfire.
Before the plane went down, journalists heard what appeared to be airstrikes from it. Rebels cheered and celebrated at the crash, though the government denied a plane had gone down — or that any towns were shelled on Saturday.
The fighting galvanized the people of Benghazi, with young men collecting bottles to make gasoline bombs. Some residents dragged bed frames and metal scraps into the streets to make roadblocks.
Abdel-Hafez, a 49-year-old Benghazi resident, said rebels and government soldiers were fighting on a university campus on the south side of the city, with government tanks moving in, followed by ground troops. In the city center, tank fire drew closer and rebel shouts rang out.
At a news conference in the capital, Tripoli, the government spokesman read letters from Gadhafi to President Barack Obama and others involved in the international effort.
"Libya is not yours. Libya is for the Libyans. The Security Council resolution is invalid," he said in the letter to French President Nicolas Sarkozy, British Prime Minister David Cameron, and U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon.
To Obama, the Libyan leader was slightly more conciliatory: "If you had found them taking over American cities with armed force, tell me what you would do."
Government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim said the rebels are the ones breaking the cease fire by attacking military forces.
"Our armed forces continue to retreat and hide, but the rebels keep shelling us and provoking us," Musa told The Associated Press.
In a joint statement to Gadhafi late Friday, the United States, Britain and France — backed by unspecified Arab countries — called on Gadhafi to end his troops' advance toward Benghazi and pull them out of the cities of Misrata, Ajdabiya and Zawiya. It also called for the restoration of water, electricity and gas services in all areas. It said Libyans must be able to receive humanitarian aid or the "international community will make him suffer the consequences" with military action.
Parts of eastern Libya, where the once-confident rebels this week found their hold slipping, erupted into celebration at the passage of the U.N. resolution. But the timing and consequences of any international military action remained unclear.
In Benghazi, crowds gathered at the courthouse that is the de facto rebel headquarters. About 200 people were in the area, drinking tea and talking. Some brought a tank and a mounted anti-aircraft gun they said they had captured today.
"We are really surprised. When will they come? When will they stop him? It's always, 'In a few hours, in a few hours.' Then what?" said Salah, 42, a travel agent, raising his hands with a shrug. "Everybody is angry about this."
Dr. Gebreil Hewadi of the Jalaa Hospital and a member of the rebel health committee said that 27 dead had been taken to the hospital since Friday night.
Misrata, Libya's third-largest city and the last held by rebels in the west, came under sustained assault well after the cease-fire announcement, according to rebels and a doctor there. The doctor, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he feared reprisals, said Gadhafi's snipers were on rooftops and his forces were searching homes for rebels.
Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa said that Libyan officials had informed the U.N. and the Security Council that the government was holding to the cease-fire and called for a team of foreign observers to verify that.
"The nation is respecting all the commitments put on it by the international community," he said, leaving the podium before answering any questions about Benghazi.
In the course of the rebellion, Libya has gone from a once-promising economy with the largest proven oil reserves in Africa to a country in turmoil. The foreign workers that underpinned the oil industry have fled; production and exports have all but ground to a halt; and its currency is down 30 percent in just two weeks.
The oil minister, Shukri Ghanem, held a news conference calling on foreign oil companies to send back their workers. He said the government would honor all its contracts.
"It is not our intention to violate any of these agreements and we hope that from their part they will honor this agreement and they will send back their workforces," he said.
In Italy, which had been the main buyer for Libyan oil, six Danish F-16 fighter jets landed at the U.S. naval air station in Sigonella, Sicily, as the international military buildup mounted.
Italy has offered the use of seven air and navy bases already housing U.S., NATO and Italian forces to enforce the no-fly zone over Libya and protect Libyan civilians from Moammar Gadhafi's forces. Sigonella's size and close proximity to Libya makes it a key staging point.
Italy's defense minister, Ignazio La Russa, said Saturday that Italy wasn't just "renting out" its bases for others to use but was prepared to offer "moderate but determined" military support.
Hasnt the government learned anything yet after Iraq and Afghanistan. Mind our own business and stay the frack out of other peoples business. Let the winner take over. It cant be any worse than it is already in Lybia no matter who wins. If we just get out of everyones country we can let all the muslims do what they do best. If they cant kill infidels, they kill each other. Its in their blood apparently to just fight anyone whos handy. Their just like the school bully. If we have any luck all the muslim countries will all kill themselves off and we can just truck out the oil while we wave to camel drivers camping in the desert. If it ever gets to the point of being a threat to us, THEN by all means go in and destroy them with no holds barred.
I also noticed that when they fight, we also seem to get into the middle of it. Surely, it doesn't have anything to do with either oil or Israel.
I'm not sure how Israel fits into it. I try to avoid the conspiracy stuff. The oil part would be great if it actually helped us. Were still paying 4 bucks a gallon, so all the "we went to war for the oil" is null.
I still vote we drop giant nukes across the entire area, destroy everything that comes from the middle east, including Israel, and see how quiet, and peaceful the world becomes.
Brad
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10:34 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
Id secretly let Israel move to another part of the world before the nukes fell. Honestly, there about the only country left on the planet with any balls. (and Im not Jewish). I said 10 years ago to nuke the middle east. The only thing usefull to the US that comes from there are rugs.
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10:39 AM
Scottzilla79 Member
Posts: 2573 From: Chicago, IL Registered: Oct 2009
In fairness to the "Muslim countries" they are still suffering from being divvied up by the allied powers post WWII. Maybe if the west allowed them to form their own country, like they promised, the Arabs they would not have to overthrow oppressive monarchs and dictators.
Obama stated he only wanted to be involved for "days not weeks". I really don't think he thinks past step one. Qadaffi will just wait us out and do what he wants. If we are going to hold the line we have to be prepared to hold it indefinitely. We are still in Korea.
eff that. If we are gonna win that country's war, we get the country... Seriously though, we need to stop being the World Police Department. Screw the UN.
We have been playing World Police for over 45 years.....it is not going to stop.........
French jets fire first shots at Gadhaffi's forces after Libya breaks cease fire agreement.
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By RYAN LUCAS and HADEEL AL-SHALCHI, Associated Press
BENGHAZI, Libya – French fighter jets fired the first shots at Moammar Gadhafi's troops on Saturday, launching the broadest international military effort since the Iraq war in support of an uprising that had seemed on the verge of defeat.
In the hours before the no-fly zone over Libya went into effect, Gadhafi sent warplanes, tanks and troops into Benghazi, the rebel capital and first city to fall to the rebellion that began Feb. 15. Then the government attacks appeared to go silent.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy said after an emergency summit in Paris that French jets were already targeting Gadhafi's forces. The 22 participants in Saturday's summit agreed to do everything necessary to make Gadhafi respect a U.N. Security Council resolution Thursday demanding a cease-fire, Sarkozy said.
"Our consensus was strong, and our resolve is clear. The people of Libya must be protected, and in the absence of an immediate end to the violence against civilians our coalition is prepared to act, and to act with urgency," President Barack Obama said in Brasilia, Brazil, on the first day of a three-country Latin American tour.
The rebels, who have seen their advances into western Libya turn into a series of defeats, said they had hoped for more, sooner from the international community, after a day when crashing shells shook the buildings of Benghazi and Gadhafi's tanks rumbled through the university campus.
"People are disappointed, they haven't seen any action yet. The leadership understands some of the difficulties with procedures but when it comes to procedures versus human lives the choice is clear," said Mustafa Gheriani, a spokesman for the opposition. "People on the streets are saying where are the international forces? Is the international community waiting for the same crimes to be perpetrated on Benghazi has have been done by Gadhafi in the other cities?"
A doctor said 27 bodies had reached hospitals by midday. As night fell, though, the streets were quiet.
Libyan state television showed Gadhafi supporters converging on the international airport and a military garrison in Tripoli, and the airport in Gadhafi's hometown of Sirte, in an apparent attempt to deter bombing.
In an open letter, Gadhafi warned: "You will regret it if you dare to intervene in our country."
In Paris, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said Gadhafi's government had lost all legitimacy and lied about the cease-fire.
"We have every reason to fear that left unchecked, Gadhafi will commit unspeakable atrocities," she said.
Saturday's emergency meeting involved 22 leaders and top officials, including Arab League Secretary-General Amr Moussa and U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon and the foreign ministers of Jordan, Morocco and the United Arab Emirates. It was the largest international military action since the beginning of the Iraq war, launched almost exactly eight years ago.
Earlier Saturday, a plane was shot down over the outskirts of Benghazi, sending up a massive black cloud of smoke. An Associated Press reporter saw the plane go down in flames and heard the sound of artillery and crackling gunfire.
Before the plane went down, journalists heard what appeared to be airstrikes from it. Rebels cheered and celebrated at the crash, though the government denied a plane had gone down — or that any towns were shelled on Saturday.
The fighting galvanized the people of Benghazi, with young men collecting bottles to make gasoline bombs. Some residents dragged bed frames and metal scraps into the streets to make roadblocks.
"This city is a symbol of the revolution, it's where it started and where it will end if this city falls," said Gheriani.
But at Jalaa hospital, where the tile floors and walls were stained with blood, the toll was clear.
"There are more dead than injured," said Dr. Ahmed Radwan, an Egyptian who had been there helping for three weeks.
Jalaa's Dr. Gebreil Hewadi, a member of the rebel health committee, said city hospitals had received 27 bodies.
At a news conference in the capital, Tripoli, the government spokesman read letters from Gadhafi to Obama and others involved in the international effort.
"Libya is not yours. Libya is for the Libyans. The Security Council resolution is invalid," he said in the letter to Sarkozy, British Prime Minister David Cameron, and U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon.
To Obama, the Libyan leader was slightly more conciliatory: "If you had found them taking over American cities with armed force, tell me what you would do."
In a joint statement to Gadhafi late Friday, the United States, Britain and France — backed by unspecified Arab countries — called on Gadhafi to end his troops' advance toward Benghazi and pull them out of the cities of Misrata, Ajdabiya and Zawiya. It also called for the restoration of water, electricity and gas services in all areas. It said Libyans must be able to receive humanitarian aid or the "international community will make him suffer the consequences" with military action.
Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa said that Libyan officials had informed the U.N. and the Security Council that the government was holding to the cease-fire it had announced Friday and called for a team of foreign observers to verify that.
"The nation is respecting all the commitments put on it by the international community," he said, leaving the podium before answering any questions about Benghazi.
In the course of the rebellion, Libya has gone from a once-promising economy with the largest proven oil reserves in Africa to a country in turmoil. The foreign workers that underpinned the oil industry have fled; production and exports have all but ground to a halt; and its currency is down 30 percent in just two weeks.
The oil minister, Shukri Ghanem, held a news conference calling on foreign oil companies to send back their workers. He said the government would honor all its contracts.
"It is not our intention to violate any of these agreements and we hope that from their part they will honor this agreement and they will send back their work forces," he said.
Italy, which had been the main buyer for Libyan oil, offered the use of seven air and navy bases already housing U.S., NATO and Italian forces to enforce the no-fly zone over Libya.
Italy's defense minister, Ignazio La Russa, said Saturday that Italy wasn't just "renting out" its bases for others to use but was prepared to offer "moderate but determined" military support.
A French fighter jet fired Saturday on a Libyan military vehicle, the first reported offensive action in the international military operation against Gadhafi's forces, French Defense Ministry spokesman Thierry Burkhard said.
Warplanes from the United States, Canada, Denmark arrived at Italian air bases Saturday as part of an international military buildup. Germany backed the operation but isn't offering its own forces.
British Prime Minister David Cameron said after the summit: "The time for action has come, it needs to be urgent."
The decision was THEIRS, as far as most people in England see it.
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