quote Originally posted by Zeb: A short time ago, in geological terms, somebody decided gays need equal rights. I checked my Constitution, and my Bible. Can't find anything agaist equal rights. You want your partner's health insurance, inheritance, custody rights, etc., I'm fine with that. We invented the phrase "Civil Union" to cover it. No redefining the language to suit a small group. But now, that's not good enough. No Civil Union seems adequate. The State must recognize gays as being "married". Sorry, that's not what the word means. And I'm a citizen of the State. So if the State is forced to recognize, and by recognizing, condone, gay marrige, I am being forced to as well.

The problem there is Civil Unions are not recognized in all 50 states. If Civil Unions afforded gay couples the same rights "under the law" as a marriage in all 50 states, you probably wouldn't hear them asking about marriage. That's one reason I think marriage and civil unions should be two separate things. Government shouldn't be declaring what is a proper religious union, and marriage shouldn't be about legal contracts with the government.

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: I dont hate the group..and I really do respect thier freedom to live as they choose.......what I hate is the candian goobernment/ special-interest-groups trying to dictate to me what I will and will not approve of. THAT is a major issue.

See you just dont get it.. Nobody is looking for your approval, im sure gay people could care less if you approve of them or not.. The point is getting people who think like you to stop passing laws preventing gays from getting the same freedoms you enjoy.. Like getting married..

If your sick of hearing about the gays, then let them have what they want.. The right to marry, and they will go away.. And you can continue to dissaprove of them all you want..

Im not directing this comment at anyone here, but i dissaprove of alot of people.. Like ignorant stupid people.. But you dont see me trying to get laws passed to prevent them from breeding..

Let the gays marry each other, then everyone can get on with their lives and ignore it like most people do anyway..

im really sick of people trying to dictate and create laws based on their religion beliefs.. Not everyone believes in religion of whatever flavor, and its immoral to dictate people to live their lives based on other peoples said beliefs.

quote Government shouldn't be declaring what is a proper religious union, and marriage shouldn't be about legal contracts with the government.

Government doesn't declare what is a proper religious union, they only declare which ones they recognize. Ever hear of getting married by a justice of the peace? That isn't a religious ceremony and is government approved but not available in every state.
Here is a link by state of who can perform a marriage.
http://marriage.about.com/c...ses/a/officiants.htm

quote Recognized Marriage Officiants - - People Who Can Perform Wedding Ceremonies Here is a listing of U.S. state marriage laws regarding authorized persons, officiants, who can perform wedding ceremonies. A Alabama Licensed ministers or pastors of recognized religious societies, and current or retired Alabama judges. Alaska A minister, priest, recognized leader, or rabbi of any church or congregation in the state, a commissioned officer of the Salvation Army, marriage commissioner, or a judicial officer of the state can perform weddings. Arizona Licensed or ordained ministers, clergymen, or pastors of recognized religious societies. Arkansas Ministers must have their credentials recorded in one of Arkansas' 75 counties. B C California Clergy, Justices, Judges, Magistrates, Marriage Commissioners (current or retired). Some counties in California also have a "deputy for a day" program that allows non-clergy friends and relatives to officiate at a wedding. Colorado Couples themselves may solemnize their own marriage (C.R.S 14-2-109). They must apply for paper work from the County Courthouse in order to do this. However, friends or relatives can not solemnize their marriage. Out-of-state Clergy need not be registered in Colorado. Connecticut Any ordained or licensed clergymen, and justices of the peace. D Delaware Any ordained minister, and clerks of the peace. If you have your marriage ceremony at the office of the Clerk of the Peace, there is a $20 fee for the civil marriage ceremony. District of Columbia Any ordained minister, and justices of the peace. There is an application fee of $35 in cash for authorization to celebrate marriages in the District of Columbia. E F Florida Any ordained or licensed clergymen, notary publics, and justices of the peace. G Georgia Licensed or ordained ministers, clergymen, or pastors of recognized religious societies, and justices of the peace. H Hawaii The marriage performer must be commissioned by the State of Hawaii, Department of Health. I Idaho Priests or ministers of any denomination, and judges, or other designated officials, i.e., mayor or governor may perform weddings. Illinois Ordained ministers, judges, retired judges, and public officials whose powers include solemnization of marriages. Indiana Marriages may be performed by a member of the clergy (including a minister, priest, bishop, rabbi, and imam), a judge, a magistrate, a clerk of the circuit court, or a clerk or clerk-treasurer of a city or town. Iowa Any ordained or licensed clergymen, and justices of the peace. J K Kansas Any ordained or licensed clergymen, and justices of the peace. Kentucky Any ordained or licensed clergymen who have been licensed in Kentucky to perform weddings, and justices of the peace. L Louisiana Any ordained or licensed clergymen who have registered with the clerk of the district court of the parish or with the health department if in New Orleans, and justices of the peace. M Maine Any ordained ministers or clergymen who have been licensed by the secretary of State. Application with a $5 fee needs to be made through the town clerk or treasurer. Maryland Official of a religious order or a deputy clerk or a judge. Massachusetts Any ordained ministers or clergymen, and justices of the peace may perform weddings. Out-of-state clergy need to obtain a Certificate of Authorization from the Massachusetts Secretary of the Commonwealth before the wedding ceremony. A non-minister or non-justice of the peace (such as a relative of family friend) may receive from the Governor, for a $25 fee, special one-time permission to perform a marriage. Michigan Marriages may be performed by federal, probate, district, and municipal judges, and district court magistrates, in their court area; mayors, in their city; County clerks; ministers and pastors of the gospel, both resident and non-resident. Minnesota Judges, clerks of court, court commissioners, and licensed ministers, priests or rabbis, as well as representatives of Bahai, Hindu, Quaker and American Indian religious groups are authorized to perform weddings. Mississippi Clergy, mayors, local Board of Supervisors members, and judges of the state Supreme Court, Court of Appeals, Circuit court, Chancery court, Justice court, or County court. Missouri Marriages may be performed by any clergyman in good standing, either active or retired, and by any judge, including a municipal judge. Montana Any ordained or licensed clergymen, and justices of the peace. N through Z N Nebraska Any ordained or licensed clergymen, and justices of the peace. Nevada Any ordained or licensed clergymen who have obtained a certificate of permissions to perform marriages, and justices of the peace. New Hampshire Weddings can be solemized by a judge, supreme court justice, assistant judge, justice of the peace, priest, rabbi, or minister residing in New Hampshire. Non-residents clergy need to receive a special license from the Secretary of State. New Jersey Any ordained or licensed clergymen, and justices of the peace. New Mexico Any ordained or licensed clergymen, and justices of the peace. New York According to Section 11 of the Domestic Relations Law, an officiant must be an authorized, officially ordained member of the clergy or a public official in the State of New York such as a mayor, city clerk, deputy city clerk, appointed marriage officer, justice, or judge. In New York City, an officiant must be registered with the City of New York. Ship captains can not perform marriage ceremonies in New York State. North Carolina Any ordained or licensed clergymen, and justices of the peace. North Dakota Any ordained or licensed clergymen, and justices of the peace. O Ohio Any ordained or licensed clergymen who have presented their ordination credentials to the county probate judge, and justices of the peace. Oklahoma Any ordained or licensed clergymen, and justices of the peace. Oregon Judges, County Clerks or their Deputies, Justices of Peace, and ministers, pastors, priests, rabbis may perform wedding ceremonies in Oregon. P Pennsylvania Couples can obtain a self-uniting license. Any ordained minister, priest or rabbi of any regularly established church or congregation, Judges, Justices of Peace, and County Clerks or their appointed Deputies may perform wedding ceremonies. Mayors of cities and boroughs are also authorized to perform marriage ceremonies. See Pennsylvania Statutes, Title 23, Chapter 15 for more information. Q R Rhode Island Rhode Island has a complicated law regarding officiants. (updated 6/26/2006) S South Carolina Any ordained or licensed clergymen, and justices of the peace. South Dakota Any ordained or licensed clergymen, and justices of the peace. T Tennessee Any ordained or licensed clergymen over the age of 18, and justices of the peace. Texas Persons authorized to perform weddings in Texas include licensed or ordained Christian ministers, priests, Jewish rabbis, officers authorized by religious organizations, justices of the supreme court, judges of the court of criminal appeals, justices of the courts of appeals, judges of the district, county, and probate courts, judges of the county courts at law, judges of the courts of domestic relations, judges of the juvenile courts, retired justices or judges, justices of the peace, retired justices of the peace, and judges or magistrates of a federal court of Texas. U Utah Any ordained or licensed clergymen, and justices of the peace. V Vermont Authorized persons to perform weddings in Vermont are judges, supreme court justices, assistant judges, justice of the peaces, and ordained or licensed clergymen. Non-resident clergy need to file for a permit from the county Probate Court where the marriage will take place. Virginia Any ordained minister who can show proof of ordination. Marriage Commissioners,and Judges (Circuit Court, District Court, or retired) in Virginia may also perform civil weddings. W Washington Any ordained or licensed clergymen, and justices of the peace. West Virginia Any ordained minister who has received authorization to perform marriages in the state of West Virgina. The court in each city and county has appointed persons who are eligible to perform civil weddings. Wisconsin Ordained member of the clergy, a judge, a court commissioner, or certain religious appointees. You and your prospective spouse may officiate under established customs or rules of some religions. Wyoming Any ordained or licensed clergymen, and justices of the peace. X Y Z

quote Originally posted by avengador1: Government doesn't declare what is a proper religious union, they only declare which ones they recognize. Ever hear of getting married by a justice of the peace? That isn't a religious ceremony and is government approved but not available in every state.

But because of religious views of the definition of "marriage" a "marriage" by a justice of the peace is not an option for a gay couple, which goes back to the civil union argument/government argument.

Marriage should be solely a religious rite. You don't have government deciding who can and can't get a Baptism, Briss, or Confirmation.
Government should deal solely with the legal aspects of the union, and that should be independent of religious views on what type of union is allowed.

Be careful what you wish for. A 18-21 year child support payment isn't a "charismatic" joke.

Followup video...

quote Originally posted by Zeb: My disagreement with homosexuality is not based on tradition, or religion. It's based on anatomy. You're not using the hardware in the correct way. Sure, you CAN do those things. And they sure must be fun. But as a typical obsessive-compulsive engineer, I must point out that you're not meeting the design intent of your DNA. Sure, you can use a Wrench as a Hammer. Done it myself, many times. Works mighty fine. But when I say: "Hand me the Hammer.",... Please. Don't. Hand. Me. A. Wrench.

Without being too crass about it, from the self-declared perspective of an "obsessive-compulsive engineer" who is loathe to use something in a manner that is not within the "design intent" parameters, I can only assume that the concept of, say, fellatio never occurred to you.....ever.

I rather like the "wrench/hammer" analogy, by the way.

Fellatio, hmmmm. As I mentioned, occasional mis-application of tools is excusable. Even understandable. But to permanently install the wrong thing in the wrong place, that's just wrong. If you disagree, go ask your DNA. It wants to reproduce.

If gays really want to get equality, come up with a win-win agenda. Leave the word "marrige" for the straights. Make the deal for "civil unions" or whatever will give you the equivalnet civil rights. You'll get a lot more straight people to support that. We have Civil Unions in NJ, and I've got no issues.

But even after we got Civil Unions, we still get calls for Gay Marrige in NJ. What gives? What's the real purpose of that?